Welder's Union

[CopperJonny]

I feel there should be a Welder Union ! Everyone needs us, yet treat us like a secondary trade. As a matter of fact if we had our own union, we would have much more control!
Having to test every job and further our tickets to and education on a constant basis, yet "fitters" not having to do so.
What kind of BS is it, when the trade was divided between fitters and Welders, and the Welders dont have a Union or place in the Name?! As the MOST important position in ANY metal trade, should be given much more respect! Its like a Carpenter, One guy holds the 2x4's in place, and the other guy only having the ticket to hammer them together.....WTF ?! Never in a million years....
Yes there are some intricate drawings, yet as a Journeyman Welder , I had spent over 14 yrs fitting metal together , structurally, Pressure and piping... ffs. That is called Competency from travelling around on many jobs as an apprentice and learning many different processes and fabrication... " Journeyman"
What is up with the other trades earning the same deniro when we have to further skills continually...ie: TIG etc.... yet only earn the same hourly rate if we work Union or other " for the man"
IMO Journeyman should make the same as other Journeyman.... Yet Pressure should map more, and TIG even moreso... When it comes to pressure..
So GD tired of hearing the ignorant b*tching about " how do they get the job when , they (we) dont have a fitters ticket".. Give it up!! EVERY Welder ticket should trump any Fitting ticket !!!
If they didnt have us , they would be Screwed!! Why don't we start our own!!! So we demand much more respect than given..
Just thinking out loud ! Any real reasons or thoughts why we allow ourselves to bent over and be directed by other trades?! TIA
Jonny

[BlueArc]

I'm not a fitter but an Ironworker. I like that I'm there as a welder, but when there's no welding to be done there's plenty of other work that I can do.

[CopperJonny]

Oh yes... make no mistake , or should I say.... Please don't get me wrong!! I by no means intend to mean nor say.... being ... PreMadonna like! I for one , I am a connector ! I also have rodbusted , before even stepping on Steel with the Ironworkers! As a Welder, I also spin wrenches, fabricate, AND weld...it is in the constitution of the trades.. is actually 90% of any welders job.. except for bench welders. Even .. ie : on a Pipeline.. fit and weld.... on structure.... land the joices offset 'em then weld em... bridging same , shoot and shim columns, beams ... rto's...angle.
My point being.. without welders.. the Ironworkers (which I work as and with), Boilermakers (of which I am a member), and Pipefitters..would be useless without ! And the name Welder's are not even in the names of any of them... yet "helper's" and fitter's are! Is definately an ignorant conspiracy IMO..lol
I am also one to believe any Welder who calls themselves a Welder: former, shaper, and fusion'r... who cannot fit, is not too competent a welder... Ok so he may lay a great bead... yet if one may not "fix" any poor fitting...Which is sometimes what takes up the main of the 90%, then what good is one?! Absolutely useless! For crying out loud, before any welding may be done in ANY situation, some fittup MUST be done... and is or should be directly involved in any Welding Apprenticeship!
Fitting, and Welding!! ... Fitting and Welding shall and should be one GD ticket.
Speaking of which, without Unions , Fitters wouldn't have jobs unless they may weld too, and a Welder who can't fit would be in the same boat!
What my main concern is being in the least 50% of the most important aspect of any fabrication on the planet... how did we become so.... overlooked shall I say.

[hobohilton]

Originally Posted by CopperJonny

I feel there should be a Welder Union ! Everyone needs us, yet treat us like a secondary trade. As a matter of fact if we had our own union, we would have much more control!
Having to test every job and further our tickets to and education on a constant basis, yet "fitters" not having to do so.
What kind of BS is it, when the trade was divided between fitters and Welders, and the Welders dont have a Union or place in the Name?! As the MOST important position in ANY metal trade, should be given much more respect! Its like a Carpenter, One guy holds the 2x4's in place, and the other guy only having the ticket to hammer them together.....WTF ?! Never in a million years....
Yes there are some intricate drawings, yet as a Journeyman Welder , I had spent over 14 yrs fitting metal together , structurally, Pressure and piping... ffs. That is called Competency from travelling around on many jobs as an apprentice and learning many different processes and fabrication... " Journeyman"
What is up with the other trades earning the same deniro when we have to further skills continually...ie: TIG etc.... yet only earn the same hourly rate if we work Union or other " for the man"
IMO Journeyman should make the same as other Journeyman.... Yet Pressure should map more, and TIG even moreso... When it comes to pressure..
So GD tired of hearing the ignorant b*tching about " how do they get the job when , they (we) dont have a fitters ticket".. Give it up!! EVERY Welder ticket should trump any Fitting ticket !!!
If they didnt have us , they would be Screwed!! Why don't we start our own!!! So we demand much more respect than given..
Just thinking out loud ! Any real reasons or thoughts why we allow ourselves to bent over and be directed by other trades?! TIA
Jonny

--------------------
This has been attempted many times. I've been a "charter member" on a few. Personally I think they failed because the guys who formed the Union were "welders" and not "Business Managers".

My suggestion would be to find you a Harvard graduate with a Doctorate in Business Management and ask if he would want to be the #1 man. He would have connections in high places, cut deals on the golf course rather than the front office, have knowledge of investing union funds as well as have legal connections (labor law, insurance, etc) in the appropriate fields.

Now the "PROBLEM"............ The members (welders) will not listen to a business man.

Soon the deal falls apart.

Again......JMHO

Thanks,

Hobo

[puddytat]

Welders are not in the same class as fitters......engineering type fitters, not fitters that tack pieces of metal together and get someone with a qualification to weld the lot together.

I am a qualified time served fitter and turner, that is I'm qualified to work any machinery in the shop, and also to take that machinery apart and fix it so that it will work once more....I have papers and trade certificates to prove that.

I can also weld etc, as I learned to do that, but when it comes to a welding job I would never class myself as any form of welder whatsoever and do not hold any or been tested for any certificates that pertain to the welding trade.....that is, I'm a casual can do type of welder, there for when the situation requires it, ticket or no ticket.

My last job before I finally retired was in a welding shop, working for 3 years as a welder for a guy who owned the busines and held trade certificates.....he had many applicants for the job, but none of them could work a lathe or a mill as well etc.

I've been a union member all my working life, and to say that welders need a seperate union is ludicrous......probably that's how they do it in the USA, certainly not in most other parts of the World.

BTW, in a welding shop, the person who grinds welds smooth and also deburrs and removes slag for a welder is termed a labourer....no brains worth thinking about but with a strong back and a willing nature to assist where needed.

If this offends anyone in the workplace, it is unintended....get a qualification and you'll be looked up to not down on.

Back in UK I was once told by a snot faced foreman that a good labourer was worth more than any skilled man......this guy came in on the broom, (swept the floor and tried to do machining) was too useless to do machine work so became a foreman in the office...I kid thee not....the fact that he had once been a sergeant in the army gave him qualifications for "leadership"...LOL.
Ian.

[norite]

Problem is almost every trade, ie fitters, ironworkers, sheet metal, electricians and carpenters, millwrights and mechanics, probably missed some more trades use welders as part of their craft.

Each trade has different weldiing requirements and techniques, I have never seen a welder on a construction site truly skilled at every trade, they all seem to specialise in one trade or some closely related trades such as IW, boilermaker, millright etc.

Welders union, probably never going to happen..

[VPT]

Unions! LOL, they are a thing of the past.

[Pangea]

Take your union and stick it up your ***. What can a union give you that the company doesn't offer? Nothing! The parasite union cannot live without a company to feed off of but the company can function and thrive without the fungus like grip of a union.

There are states that you can move to that force you to join a union if you want to work. Go there and see what a "workers utopia" it is.

I hate unions like the communists that they are.

[slim83]

"Shut the f@#$ up and weld." " I wanna see sparks flying,don't wanna hear no welders crying." Welders will never stick together because welders don't trust other welders. You put 10 welders together for 3 or 4 months they will start turning on each other like wolves. I don't know why but I do know it happens. I don't give a crap bout who has what label or classification. I just wanna show up,do my job(welding/fabrication )and go home to my family. I'm tired of lil limp wrist welders thinking they're saving the world one weld at a time. Just shut the f#$% up and weld

[jeremy. A]

Originally Posted by Pangea

Take your union and stick it up your ***. What can a union give you that the company doesn't offer? Nothing! The parasite union cannot live without a company to feed off of but the company can function and thrive without the fungus like grip of a union.

There are states that you can move to that force you to join a union if you want to work. Go there and see what a "workers utopia" it is.

I hate unions like the communists that they are.

you are are just lost completely, before you reply you should talk to someone who really knows what they are talking about.
for one the unions are what made the 40 hour work week they made your overtime and double time exist then and now. they brought you better working conditions. you talk of parasites?????? you sir are a parasite for condemning something that has provided for you and many like you without the knowledge of the situation. Jeremy

[CopperJonny]

Exactly.........none of ya'll unless you own your own company ( even then) would make any money nor have any benefits without the help of Unions being what they are.
Stupid and ignorant Yee are
If you think the "companies" you lick balls for would pay you what they are paying now FYI .... You Sir... ARE WRONG!
Live better Work Union !
Jonny

Oh wait ... I do have to say that.... Unions these days... not what they used to be... or where started for I don't think. My experience as a Member of one who supports the leaders of the International in Kansas with OUR dues.. So damn amateur .. reminds me of Hoffa. Un Fricken real!
And thats the truth... and for that reason I want our own... and anyone who f*cks up .... there out ! No severance, no compensation.... straight up Fired... kicking stones... same as the rest of us... The round table talks will be done by lawyers and accountants who know the lingo.... NOT tradesmen.... except for a few reps..... and thats it... Members by signing on , have to agree to "listen" to the whitecollars and the whitecollars have to listen to the Bluecollars... no BS...makes us look bad.... collaborating together so they understand , if coming to work for a couple of weeks on both sides by reps... so learning curves be smooth and goals realistic. Then do it. No reason why this can't be done.
Anyone messes up with the pension/ what have you........PISS test, just like the rest of us have to......

[Pangea]

Originally Posted by jeremy. A

you are are just lost completely, before you reply you should talk to someone who really knows what they are talking about.
for one the unions are what made the 40 hour work week they made your overtime and double time exist then and now. they brought you better working conditions. you talk of parasites?????? you sir are a parasite for condemning something that has provided for you and many like you without the knowledge of the situation. Jeremy

Yeah, junior, what would I know about your precious unions. (Pangea makes fist pumping motion, the universal symbol of the jagoff). I've been in two of the parasitic organizations and steeped in the lore/lies of them. Have fun in your socialist wet dream, komrad.

[VPT]

I know how unions work. They drag along useless idiots that shouldn't have a job. They also hold back the ones that deserve the best. I don't care what they did for the "job", now days they lost all meaning and just cost business more money. Wonder why jobs are going over seas?

[Sparky#1]

Originally Posted by Pangea

Yeah, junior, what would I know about your precious unions. (Pangea makes fist pumping motion, the universal symbol of the jagoff). I've been in two of the parasitic organizations and steeped in the lore/lies of them. Have fun in your socialist wet dream, komrad.

Tell us the whole story of what happened and why.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2

[shovelon]

[CopperJonny]

Well... I certainly feel for the phrase about " no wonder why jobs are going over seas " umm yeah... blame the working fella who only wants fair wages for everyone... not the pennies that the company wants to spend, and receive from other countries.... Yeah don't blame the money hungry economy controlling corporations and O&G companies who are among the first to line up to receive tax benefits and relief , from there favourite fellow in office! And multi Million and Billion dollar bailouts... nice try... doesn't hold.
Proof is in the Puddin' as they say
Also thank you for identifying some of the "Useless and Thankless Idiots" who prefer to sit back and allow others to do the work for them!!!
To increase YOUR wages and provide the benefits to fit the means of having any sort of life that YOU and YOUR FAMILY lead!
Seeing that Pin on your shoulder , I would think that you must be proud of the freedom "OTHERS" have sacrificed everything they had and have for! Yet by the sounds of it, I'm pretty sure you don't give a rats *** about that either!!
If you don't want to spend your energy trying to up your, my .. and everyones quality of life.... thats your thing Dude.... But Blasting those who have lost there lives ( a BIG reason behind the beginnings of the whole organization) and working conditions we face due to "The Man" pinching pennies.... thats pretty darn shameful!!
Absolutely the "few" HAVE ruined it for the many, thats the case in everything.. EVERYWHERE!!!
Yet traditionally and professionally , Quality is second to none!!!
No different than you , I or Joe Blow down the road , going to the pump and seeing the hike prior to the long weekend.. thats what they are!! Customers... whining about a few extra deniro.
Traditionally they have also many "fixes" when it comes to overseas work being done... do to quality of materials and workmanship... also ... safety factors.. come on. So inturn they end up costing in the least triple what the original costs where.
Labour is 40% of the cost of any project. By Standard. So they want to do this overseas to save what 20...30% and the shipping doesnt cost that , infrastructure maintenance ( O&G) BS.
These are dealings brought on by no other than the Governments in the first place. No matter what the cost hypothetically, when citizens do the work.. naturally 100%( most of the time) of the pay checks stay within the borders... not just the mere taxes paid by the immigrants.
So really , who's looking out for National Economic Security!
Sorry pal... That HorseSh*t doesn't fly with me neither!!

[BlueArc]

Unions have their ups and downs. Don't like it, don't join one and get over it.

Last time I checked I'm happy with my wages/benefits, and the company I work for isn't quite going out of business. Sure, I'd love to get more, and they'd like to pay me less. That's where this crazy bargaining thing comes in, and bam, life goes on.

[CopperJonny]

Hey a .... sorry everyone, VPT I apologize man, I'm sorry I didn't intend to allow myself to get all caught up there... my bad!!.. I guess the remark about caring, sort of shook me... My bad..
Yeah!! they are not for everyone, never thought I would be in one, let alone a Welder when I was young.. merely the path I ended up on.. And don't get me wrong I have aspirations of working for myself too.. Actually bought me another Lincoln last year and have planned on using my skills to be an entrepreneur someday too.. until I was severely screwed on a shutdown ...fracturing seven vertebrae in a pinch point.... 14 years going hard , and it finally caught up with me.... GD split second of complacency on my behalf to be honest.. humbles a fella for sure..
I'm the fella who wanted to rebuild the reputation of the Unions... thats so we have careers and not merely jobs.. Bustin' butt to get er done.... Safely (blew that all to hell), Right the first time, and efficient thats how I ended up hurt.. my bad!( rushing) And thats the first time I've ever been in an industrial accident!( within my direct crew) Go big or go home I guess. And no the union hasn't really done anything for me, don't think there is anything one Could do for me anyhow. Just time... and heck I don't think the Compensation board are looking at training me as an inspector anyhow( just a feeling) and after doing MS Office ( Excel,Word,PowerPoint etc) in courses lately to "gear" me towards inspection I have to go in the morning to do a "Job Search" as a Desk Jockey........ not on my watch. I certainly didn't spend all the few years learning skills and busting my back to earn minimum wage... No freakin' way!!!
So I'm gearing up and have been getting off these god forsaken pain killers for a couple of months and been thinking im going to get try and back at er... ' cause I want to marry "Her" and I need to do that... only now hopefully not as one of those "useless ****". Yet certainly wont be throwing a couple of chain falls over each shoulder and hiking up the stairs or even a length of 3"x1/4 or 3/8" angle over a shoulder and across the lot with them... time to work smart I guess.
For that I'm thinking I may be lucky to be in one (union) Time to let the younger fellas earn some stripes and maybe start passing on what I have learned (which truly was almost always the safest way at the time) as well as learn new things, or maybe try and do my own thing smartly with my own gear... we'll see.
Went straight to work following release from the hospital the next day after being airlifted .. only lasted 10 part days until I couldn't handle it anymore on 30+ codeine and opiate meds just to stifle the extreme pain, after convincing the Doc I could do it and having the company fight the fact I couldn't do it even after trying to "walk it off" and save them from having insurance premiums upped (although my pride was also paramount in that decision where I did it myself)
With all of this time off, I never could understand why being such an important factor in metal fabrication.. why the heck when we are so needed all over, why we have not any regulations, policies, procedures or legislation in the Welding and even Inspection drawn up by our own.. something fishy to me.
And no , I don't care what anyone does... we all have to do something and as long as were doing it Kudos ! ( the banks don't care how we get the money, as long as they get em paid)
I just am hoping someone would know the honest to God reason why being such a specialized and important factor in the trades ... we don't have any control of our trade
Work Smart, work steady!! Not hard !
Jonny

[shovelon]

Originally Posted by BlueArc

Unions have their ups and downs. Don't like it, don't join one and get over it.

Last time I checked I'm happy with my wages/benefits, and the company I work for isn't quite going out of business. Sure, I'd love to get more, and they'd like to pay me less. That's where this crazy bargaining thing comes in, and bam, life goes on.

I vote against unions.

[papaharley03]

I hesitate to say anything, because this is always a polarizing topic. But to me, some of the statements made above on both sides are correct. And therein lies the problem. I have full appreciation for what unions brought to the table in terms of safe working conditions, better pay, etc. But...IMO the pendulum of union vs employer has swung way too far in the union direction.

The best answer lies somewhere in the middle of both sides.

For me, the union type job doesn't work because I don't want someone telling me what I 'can't do because it's taking someones job. I'm not a one trick pony and refuse to be treated as one.

As for the statement, "Yet traditionally and professionally , Quality is second to none!!!", I guess someone failed to tell the UAW in Detroit because I've had the 'pleasure' of repairing so many quality things on my American made automobiles over the past few decades. the 'fair wage' and benefits are what drove our automobile industry to near bankruptcy.

Oh well... let the arguments continue.

Papa

[minner]

The problem is the bureaucracy. You shouldn’t be trying to create a union for welders, you should be trying to get rid of the union for fitters it seems.

[puddytat]

I always get a warm glow when I see someone, who thumbed their nose at the aspect of working within Union controlled workplaces, either get the chop (lost their job) or get wacked for being in the wrong place doing the wrong thing without adequate protection.

Unions were created for the protection of the workforce, but if they get top loaded with power hungry officials who like to exercise control by bending the bosses unnecessarily, then it's the workers who suffer in the end by constant work stoppages and loss of pay etc.

Without Union overseeing, what boss would willingly pay the rate and apply ALL safety guidelines and practices......none....the greed to make extra dollars at the workers expense is too powerfull an incentive to miss.....it goes by the title EXPLOITATION, using my sweat for your benefit.

The same goes for the practice of over employing for a rush job and firing as soon as it's finished, and don't even mention severance pay as a means to compensate a worker for the employer's desire to save money during that financial year by shedding a few wage earners, so making it look good when the topic of cost cutting gets voiced.

I've stood outside in the rain for a number of times when it meant going to the max to make your claim heard........ didn't want to lose the pay, but the Union support was more important than personal preferences, otherwise why have a Union if you won't support the majority decision of your fellow workers.

At the same time there's safety and strength in numbers, that's why a union in one firm, by their very solidarity, can support the claims of the workers in other firms who are in dispute with their management.

Going it alone, for whatever reason seems good, is doomed to failure due to misinterpretation of the motives of the claims, and the boss can sometimes just let the claimants "wither on the vine" by not negotiating and holding out aginst the small Union action that does not have the finances to sustain a prolonged and sometimes acrimonious campaign.

If you can't understand that aspect you haven't understood the need and combined power of a Union to bring the management to the negotiating table without the management's bloody confrontationalistic practices they seem to wield as a first choice in dealing with any worker grievances.

As a group, without any deviation, the employers are out to pay as little as they can for as many hours as they can make the workers work.

Without a Union to "guide" them they will always do just that.

If you think otherwise you are still working for $10 an hour and 45 hours per week, no paid holidays, no sick pay, no pay in lieue of notice and no severance pay......also overtime not paid at overtime rates....etc etc the list of grievances the managers and bosses have created is as long as your arm.

Think twice when you enter a non Union shop......"abandon all hope, all ye who enter this place".

The fact that Western workers are paid more than their Chinese counterparts is because they won't work for a bowl of rice and a dollar a day, and when you support a country that applies those practices by buying their goods, you undermine your own economy.....how much more stupid do you want to get???
Ian.

[minner]

This coming from a guy who's country has a lower per capita wage than the US and pays $3 for a Coca-cola, and $4 for a tube of Chapstick. That's what you get when you set a minimum wage for nearly everyone in a country (basically what a union does). You can keep it.

[fortyonethirty]

I am not a union member and have never been. From the outside, it seems that unions (today) are parasites.

I feel that the unions have really dropped the ball on combating outsourcing and foreign competition. They had the power to make real changes when that all started but didn't. Leveling the playing field with labor laws and environmental regs. that apply to all products sold in USA, and other advanced nations, should have been their highest priority.

[BlueArc]

Originally Posted by shovelon

I vote against unions.

Hey that's what I mean. If you don't like them, don't join one, vote against them etc. I don't mean that in a combative way at all either.

I should also say that when I spoke of unions earlier, I really meant in the building trades (not UAW, public sector, etc). I'm also from a different market than most men on here, so things are different for me.

Originally Posted by minner

This coming from a guy who's country has a lower per capita wage than the US and pays $3 for a Coca-cola, and $4 for a tube of Chapstick. That's what you get when you set a minimum wage for nearly everyone in a country (basically what a union does). You can keep it.

We have a minimum wage here. I can't tell you for sure, but I'm confident a small percentage of our national workforce is organized in a union.