Errors - Fabrication / Detailing / Layout

[hobohilton]

As a bit of "encouragement" for some of the younger folks coming into the trade.. I'd like to hear from some of you guys who have been doing this for awhile. I'm hearing and seeing about the issue of those who picked up some welding certifications yet have no "layout / fabrication" experience. There doesn't seem to be a class or clinic on that.

Up front, I'll admit that I have my share of "bust" when fabricating. No one is perfect. What I will say, as encouragement, is this. Somewhere along my career path I gained enough experience and confidence to where I can simply take a measurement and go over and layout / cut my material without having to go back and re-measure or re-figure my math.

I have seen guys re-measure and re-figure something half a dozen times, cut it out and it doesn't fit. It appeared that what ever mistake they were making was made repeatedly in their layout.

Through out these postings there are many times where a guy says he went into his shop and just "whipped it out"....

As old timers we know that if all the layout / preparation / tack-up is up to snuff the actual "welding" is a breeze.

As an older experienced journeyman working with an apprentice.... What do you do and how do you it when it comes to teaching layout / fabrication to young craftsmen?

Thanks,

Hobo

[Tool Maker]

I think that a good solid understanding of Geometry is a good place to start for anyone doing layout. Geometry is the study of measurements in space and without the ability to see the object in three dimensions in you mind it is very hard to know what dimensions are important. Mac

[fredschrom]

" I think that a good solid understanding of Geometry is a good place to start for anyone doing layout"

I would say that certainly helps. It also helps to have apptitude, classic case is my two sons, oldest couldn't go out to my shop and cut a 6" 2x4 block to within an 1/8", my youngest would go and whip it out and be within a 1/32. When I speaking apptitude its not just one item, its mechanical, math, and attention to detail.

But Hobo there is no substitute for experience. And when it comes to measuring I usually do it twice, measure and verify the second time. There are times I won't do the second meaurement, usually when I am walking a top plate or something where the verify is a PIA.

An advice note to teach I think is effective use of time, 6 times measuring is not time effective, neither is cutting the part wrong which needs to be fixed. I think its a tendancy to hurry, then redo what was done improperly. Age tends to change that as I guess old farts realise we we have less time left, and need to do things quickly and accurately as we have less time left to redo it.

A couple of other faults are young guys think about sex about 3 times a minute, which is a distraction. Speaking of distractions, make them leave their cell phone in the truck. I am constently telling my youngest as he is fiddling with it tweeting or texting your not paying attention, and I wait till he is done with it, before talking with him, I am not compeating with that when showing him someting ( a peat peave of mine ).

I also think in fairness that young people were shafted in the school system. I had to take drafting in 8th grade. And I remember a lot of being beat up because I couldn't roll my pencil right and my line widths were not consistant. But by the end of the I knew how to read and make a print. Now they need to go to Jr College to get print reading, which are one of the fundamentals of good layout.

In my experience patience and controlling my temper has served me well when teaching my youngsters.

[zapster]

I never went to trade school..
College..
Night Classes..
Nothing.

Got hired where I am now in '78..
Did not know anything..Thought a micrometer was a hi performance "C" clamp!
Learned everything on the job.
Learned to read prints by myself with a little help from Herbie.

The thing that needs to be learned first is how to measure correctly!
If you think everyone knows how to measure correctly you better think again.

I am in the process of teaching a young man how to weld and measure now and it 'aint easy!
Simple fractions (To Me) can be a stumbling block to others.
Tape measure..Micrometer..Caliper/Verniers..Depth gauges..Bore gauges..
These are a MUST LEARN if you want to do anything once..not 10 times before you get one good part.


Prints..
The best thing to do IMHO is to look at the print and go over the steps from start to finish and get a game plan on how to tackle such a job..
Figure out what tools/machines will be needed and when they will be needed..
Years and years and years of experience will do wonders on getting a clue in fabrication but you must see what will happen before you even touch the part.

This will not happen overnight in any way shape or form but over time you will begin to see what needs to be done and when to do it without even having the material in front of you..

Then it's on to "Speeds and Feeds"
Too slow and too much feed = broken tools.
Too fast and not enough feed = dull tools.
Getting everything set correctly = Part after part comes out correct without constantly sharpening cutting tools/drills.

Poor planning = Poor performance.
Eyes and ears OPEN at all times will do a world of good even if the job at hand has nothing to do with you.
Every little thing you pick up along the way will benefit you in ways you never thought possible.

If I can do this anyone can.

...zap!

[killdozerd11]

Got That Right Zap

[hobohilton]

Originally Posted by fredschrom

" I think that a good solid understanding of Geometry is a good place to start for anyone doing layout"

I would say that certainly helps. It also helps to have aptitude, classic case is my two sons, oldest couldn't go out to my shop and cut a 6" 2x4 block to within an 1/8", my youngest would go and whip it out and be within a 1/32. When I speaking apptitude its not just one item, its mechanical, math, and attention to detail.

But Hobo there is no substitute for experience. And when it comes to measuring I usually do it twice, measure and verify the second time. There are times I won't do the second measurement, usually when I am walking a top plate or something where the verify is a PIA.

An advice note to teach I think is effective use of time, 6 times measuring is not time effective, neither is cutting the part wrong which needs to be fixed. I think its a tenancy to hurry, then redo what was done improperly. Age tends to change that as I guess old farts realise we we have less time left, and need to do things quickly and accurately as we have less time left to redo it.

A couple of other faults are young guys think about sex about 3 times a minute, which is a distraction. Speaking of distractions, make them leave their cell phone in the truck. I am constently telling my youngest as he is fiddling with it tweeting or texting your not paying attention, and I wait till he is done with it, before talking with him, I am not compeating with that when showing him someting ( a peat peave of mine ).

I also think in fairness that young people were shafted in the school system. I had to take drafting in 8th grade. And I remember a lot of being beat up because I couldn't roll my pencil right and my line widths were not consistant. But by the end of the I knew how to read and make a print. Now they need to go to Jr College to get print reading, which are one of the fundamentals of good layout.

In my experience patience and controlling my temper has served me well when teaching my youngsters.

------------------------------------

I agree with all of your points as well as others that have posted. This photo is of myself and an apprentice. In my later working years I worked as the "Detailer" (the guy who drew the ISO's) on large industrial construction projects.

Again, I have more questions than answers... "How do you teach a young person to think 3 dimensionally". I too began my drafting / detailing career in an 8th grade drafting class in the mid-60's. I loved drafting yet failed geometry that year. As a pipefitter detailer ----IT'S ALL 3 DIMENSION.

Measuring was also mentioned. It got so bad at one of the jobs I was on they bought the "special" tape measure's with the fractions printed on the tape so the user didn't have to count the little lines. Didn't seem to help. At times I've actually just broke off one section of my folding stick rule and gave it to my apprentice. It was just getting down to basics and dealing with things shorter than 6".

I'd like to channel some of what I learned towards some of the young folks entering this arena. Suggestions?

Thanks,

Hobo

[tanglediver]

Originally Posted by hobohilton

I'm hearing and seeing about the issue of those who picked up some welding certifications yet have no "layout / fabrication" experience. There doesn't seem to be a class or clinic on that.

You got me thinking with that. I have never even claimed to BE a fabricator. Nobody has ever tried to teach me OJT style fabrication. But I have tried to take as many classes about it that I could stand, and have been chasing this "hobby" turned job skill for some time, but not my entire working career.

All I can say about real world jobs is this. Sometimes getting it right is a *****!!! Oops!

[Fegenbush]

Originally Posted by hobohilton

I'd like to channel some of what I learned towards some of the young folks entering this arena. Suggestions?

I teach part time at a local tech school (Sullivan College of Technology and Design, if anyone is interested) for this very purpose. While I am by no means an expert, I believe that to *expect* the best from people, you must work to *produce* the best people. Lead by example and give back when you can.

[Bob]

I don't know if your born with the ability to see things in your head or you learn it with experience. It seems I've always had that ability. When I see posts where people put up their computer prints of their projects that are simple tables or a trailer, I want to say some thing smart *** because they need a print for that simple a project, but I always refrain. I've built six trailers this year, all different, sides, no sides, side ramp, end ramp, double axle, single axle and no prints or drawings. I've built 3 metal framed houses, all different and all from drawings on napkins and tablet paper. I know other guys that can do the same but only a couple. I can always see the complete project down to the smallest detail, in my head before I even start. I have had a couple hired hands before that could do it and have one now, but he is nearly 50. I had to quit hiring young guys because they want the big bucks but are not worth it yet. I have to pay the older guys more but no big mistakes, no property damage, no accidents and timely and quality production where I can make money.

[Gjertson]

I don't get the not being able to read a tape. When I started out I learned those little marks quick because I was to embarassed to not have that basic skill. The tape with the fractions marked out doesn't belong in a professional environment.

[bobhdus]

Pre-algebra was the last math class I had in high school and that was my freshman year (the second time!). School was just too boring. Now when it came to Metal and Weld shop class I was all "ears and hands-on". I loved VICA and the metal trades. When I got out of the Army in 1992 I enrolled into a Tool and Die Apprenticeship with the NTMA. That was my first experience with Trigonometry. It actually made sense on how to locate a hole within an object when you had other dimensions to use for the formula. Eventually, I learned more math in the piping trades dealing with how you measure piping whether it's E-E, E-C, C-C finding offsets etc... I can throw all the piping together and be ready to weld before I even arrive at the job site. Long runs of hot water piping needs thermal expansion calculated into it as well. Now I love Math. I'm still not great at the Algebra and I still want to take the path of least resistance but I find myself nowadays enjoying a drawing that is missing half the dimensions that most other people would need with because I can still figure it out. It's kinda like a crossword puzzle for "metal mechanics". Most people it seems have to have a reason to learn math. Hands-on is usually the best method. I also find it more difficult to do work with others that use a different method than me. I work better alone when it comes to certain jobs. I also do a lot of math with the tape measure by using it as a scale on itself. It works!

[Bruce Avison]

I can say this as one of the younger generation, although not in the welding industry/profession, but as a farmer-in-the-making (I'm a farm kid, but I don't farm/have my own farm, so I'm not actually a farmer), and I have very ambitious plans in terms of fabrication and welding for mine/my wife's operation.

Ambition is the big one. Go out there and learn what you can. Ask. So many people hesitate. You won't know if you don't find out. Some people have a head for this kind of work, and some don't. Humility goes a long way too. There's always someone who knows more, and I'll be damned if I'm ever the guy who says I know the most. I have a BSc. in Agr. Science, and I currently drive full-time Class 1 in the oilfield. I love to weld, but I know I'm not cut out for it as a career. I enjoy the bit I've done, and I look forward to when I'll get to do more.

I find pay is a big thing for people, but not in the sense that they don't make enough. Kids these days expect all the money now. Most aren't willing to shortchange a paycheck in order to make the real money 5 or 10 years down the road. Facebook proved it to me, as I watched a good number of people in my graduating class rush out to get cars, trucks, and houses as soon as they were done, grabbing the first big ticket job that came their way. Maybe it's different in the blue collar world, but a journeyman welder I'm good friends with sees it close to what I do.

And for the reference, I'm 23, if that matters to anyone.

Bruce

[Matt_Maguire]

Originally Posted by hobohilton

Through out these postings there are many times where a guy says he went into his shop and just "whipped it out"....

As an older experienced journeyman working with an apprentice.... What do you do and how do you it when it comes to teaching layout / fabrication to young craftsmen?

Hobo

You can just "whip it out" when the fundamentals are so deep in you it's combined with your DNA.

For layout or checking layout, a string and pencil along with some charts demonstrating geometric construction. This is before the scale and compass etc. Geometry itself is just the mathematic expressions found and explained after milenia of people using the simple construction methods to layout and build.

Originally Posted by fredschrom

" I think that a good solid understanding of Geometry is a good place to start for anyone doing layout"

I also think in fairness that young people were shafted in the school system. I had to take drafting in 8th grade. And I remember a lot of being beat up because I couldn't roll my pencil right and my line widths were not consistant. But by the end of the I knew how to read and make a print. Now they need to go to Jr College to get print reading, which are one of the fundamentals of good layout.

In my experience patience and controlling my temper has served me well when teaching my youngsters.

It's a different time, we first got a hard taste of geometry in the 6th grade in the USA, (the same as a century before). In 1912 for instance building was everywhere in front of you, also for many if you wanted something you had to build it - so it was useful and maybe exciting to explain how things were measured & built for instance. Nowadays everything seems to just "be there" for an 11 year old. We also really fall down in the "knowledge is power" re: "things that help you to be handy".

Every once in a while I show the kid at the shop next door some simple geometric construction things and he retains them pretty well and comments from time to time later when knowing such has solved a mystery for him. He's not ready for division or working log scales using a framing square yet... maybe someday!

Matt

[rnrfab]

The biggest lesson I try to teach my guys is that nothing that you do in life is more than a matter of steps. Some jobs have a lot of steps, some a few, some have some really crappy steps, some have easy steps, if you can look at a job and see the steps, it becomes much easier. I think this is what allows me to see the finished product before I cut the first piece of metal. I KNOW this is what helps me quote accurately...Now if you can look at just the value added steps, you will eliminate the wasted time/money. As was stated above, measuring 6 times is not a value added set of steps.

[turbocad6]

what I see a lot of is just some guys lacking common sense in figuring stuff out. I've argued with people many times about the fact that measuring is all relative, and sometimes what's important is the accuracy of one part relative to another, not just the actual measurement numbers. you can produce certain things with enough accuracy with just using a string, and a plum bob, and some more string, never even bothering to measure something that is very difficult to measure accurately and wind up with better results than the guy who measures everything yet still screws it up.

same can go for angles, sometimes the most important thing is to just duplicate an angle or an opposite angle and sometimes you don't even really have to know the precise angle down to the minutes to duplicate it... now I'm not necessarily talking about machine work or very high tolerance stuff, but for larger fabrication and repairs sometimes there is more to it than just knowing how to read a ruler. I've seen guys trying to straighten a mangled chassis with all the best measuring equipment and yet they still have that deer in the headlights look and don't really know what to actually do, where I'll show them how to square it up with relative dimensions using a string or flat bar without graduations and just making my own one reference mark(s)... the guy with less common sense will always be the one to say oh you can't expect to be accurate without using accurate measuring but I am, my measuring and my one mark is every bit as accurate as a ruler would be, but common sense is something that's a bit harder to teach. one of my favorite in a pinch methods to transfer accurate dimensions for smaller stuff is with the edge of a business card, the distance between an edge of the card and a razor cut line is as accurate as any ruler in it's use for a particular situation... some won't understand how that is every bit as accurate as using a more conventional measuring device

in the end it's not only knowing how to read numbers it's understanding there relationship to the job at hand. I'm NOT saying that measuring is unnecessary of course and I do also use plenty of measuring equipment. I'm just saying that sometimes common sense is needed along with a ruler

[fredschrom]

turbocad66,

A tool I use a lot it a squangle a simple old roofing tool :

Amazon

Amazon

Amazing what one of those, a old school framing square, a tape measure and a chaulk line can layout, using good old common sense. The squangle isn't absolutly neccessary but it makes it faster than figuring it out on the framing square the hard way. And if you you have a cheap general tools protractor, you can get real accurate.

[SeanMurphy265]

This probably going to sound ridiculous, but its true. A lot of time we call people dumb, but the truth is people are smarter in different ways, and thank God for that! There something called multiple intelligence theory, and long story short people learn in different ways. I'm a visual learner, meaning I need to be able to see it. Some people learn by hearing something, and others by reading something. The problem with our education system is that kids are dumb if they can't learn the way a particular teacher is teaching. A good teacher will always use a mix of teaching styles so they can appeal to everyone.

To give an example, I have a family member who is a certified public accountant. He is very good at what he does, and very good with math. I am horrible at math! It has always been a struggle. He is always amazed that I can build something from start to finish, and I tell him I'm amazed that he can do accounting!

Some things can be taught. I learned fractions and measuring, but it took a little time to do it in my head. I would always write measurements down and do the math on a beam that I was working on. Because I'm a visual learner I had the ability to see what I was building in my head. Some people's brain will not work this way and they cannot pick it up.

My family member is trying to do some farming and manual labor. I told him that he should stick to accounting. He's too smart for his own good and you can't tell him anything. Because of the economy people are getting into the trades now because they can make more money. I know people that were in the financial field with M.B.A's who got laid off and went to a local C.C. and learned how to be plumber. He figured if there was not any construction jobs there would always be repair work!

The sad part is you are going to see people trying to do a job they have no business doing. People no longer look down on someone who get dirty for a living. Now it's a sign of a working man!

[jonzboi]

Sometimes assembly experience or thought is where the trouble is. The layout is right but assembly or erection process is what causes a drag in production. Starting from a level or plumb surface, small frame-ups put together to make a full fabrication etc. I saw some older guys that forgot that step once. They were building a stand-up welding rod box oven. It started with one guy standing an angle iron on the floor while trying to hold a level and framing square on it. The other guy was trying to hold another angle iron to it and tack it. The same way they built the Empire State Building. I'm sure you can picture the rest.

[hobohilton]

Originally Posted by turbocad6

what I see a lot of is just some guys lacking common sense in figuring stuff out. I've argued with people many times about the fact that measuring is all relative, and sometimes what's important is the accuracy of one part relative to another, not just the actual measurement numbers. you can produce certain things with enough accuracy with just using a string, and a plum bob, and some more string, never even bothering to measure something that is very difficult to measure accurately and wind up with better results than the guy who measures everything yet still screws it up.

same can go for angles, sometimes the most important thing is to just duplicate an angle or an opposite angle and sometimes you don't even really have to know the precise angle down to the minutes to duplicate it... now I'm not necessarily talking about machine work or very high tolerance stuff, but for larger fabrication and repairs sometimes there is more to it than just knowing how to read a ruler. I've seen guys trying to straighten a mangled chassis with all the best measuring equipment and yet they still have that deer in the headlights look and don't really know what to actually do, where I'll show them how to square it up with relative dimensions using a string or flat bar without graduations and just making my own one reference mark(s)... the guy with less common sense will always be the one to say oh you can't expect to be accurate without using accurate measuring but I am, my measuring and my one mark is every bit as accurate as a ruler would be, but common sense is something that's a bit harder to teach. one of my favorite in a pinch methods to transfer accurate dimensions for smaller stuff is with the edge of a business card, the distance between an edge of the card and a razor cut line is as accurate as any ruler in it's use for a particular situation... some won't understand how that is every bit as accurate as using a more conventional measuring device

in the end it's not only knowing how to read numbers it's understanding there relationship to the job at hand. I'm NOT saying that measuring is unnecessary of course and I do also use plenty of measuring equipment. I'm just saying that sometimes common sense is needed along with a ruler

-------------------------------
I have a lifelong welder / fabricator friend and we have had this same conversion many times. He has fitters with him who simply could not read / understand / execute with a folding stick rule. Many times through the years he's threatened to take the folding rule away and simply give them a short stick to use for measurement. Then anything they fabed would be 1 stick long or 2 sticks long or even 3 sticks long.

That is the concept you are mentioning....

Thanks,

Hobo

[hobohilton]

Originally Posted by fredschrom

turbocad66,

A tool I use a lot it a squangle a simple old roofing tool : http://www.amazon.com/Mayes-Level-10.../dp/B00004YZP6

Amazing what one of those, a old school framing square, a tape measure and a chaulk line can layout, using good old common sense. The squangle isn't absolutly neccessary but it makes it faster than figuring it out on the framing square the hard way. And if you you have a cheap general tools protractor, you can get real accurate.

--------------------------------

I agree with learning the "basics" first. Before a fabricator even gets on the autocad / computer....... He should be able to measure diagonally to verify a frame is square (picture frame, screen door frame, building foundation frame, square man hole frame, etc.). It's the same mechanical theory regardless of the application.

Thanks,

Hobo

[LayoutMan]

I don't know if im wrong, but old workers arround me told me all the same ''when we started 40 years ago, there was no trade school for us, we had to start to do painting, grinder, cutting, cleaning the shop, and now we'll have more experience than you will never have''

They think that because they paint, clean the shop, grind and weld basic stuff during 4 years its the BEST way to work, i even know some 40 years old man that start to really do ''fitting'' and read drawings at almost 30 yo, before that they were railling welder and structural with basic certs, and they pretend to be better than anyone younger!

You know what ? perfect, i give them reason if they want only because they are grumpy, but i have a different ''mindset'' on this, i think that a young man that only want to do fitting, and reading drawings, calculation and complicated work after 1 or 2 years of trade school and start right after he's classes to work as a fitter and apprentice (by apprentice i mean apprentice fitter who fitted and not clean the shop) is the best way to start, if you don't want to be a welder, you don't need to weld and grind for 5 years to be a good fitter! this way you'll get the real fitting and drawing experience that you need for your carrer, and you can add on your experience maybe 3 or 4 years as a real fitter instead of a helper that just start to do basic work after 5 years in the shop!

[hobohilton]

Originally Posted by LayoutMan

I don't know if im wrong, but old workers arround me told me all the same ''when we started 40 years ago, there was no trade school for us, we had to start to do painting, grinder, cutting, cleaning the shop, and now we'll have more experience than you will never have''

They think that because they paint, clean the shop, grind and weld basic stuff during 4 years its the BEST way to work, i even know some 40 years old man that start to really do ''fitting'' and read drawings at almost 30 yo, before that they were railling welder and structural with basic certs, and they pretend to be better than anyone younger!

You know what ? perfect, i give them reason if they want only because they are grumpy, but i have a different ''mindset'' on this, i think that a young man that only want to do fitting, and reading drawings, calculation and complicated work after 1 or 2 years of trade school and start right after he's classes to work as a fitter and apprentice (by apprentice i mean apprentice fitter who fitted and not clean the shop) is the best way to start, if you don't want to be a welder, you don't need to weld and grind for 5 years to be a good fitter! this way you'll get the real fitting and drawing experience that you need for your carrer, and you can add on your experience maybe 3 or 4 years as a real fitter instead of a helper that just start to do basic work after 5 years in the shop!

----------------------------------------

Well......... as a result of craftsmen not knowing the basics, the construction world has changed. 50 years ago, a truck load of pipe and fittings would arrive on a job-site. The craftsmen would unload it, clean, prep, layout, detail, fabricate, install, test, and finally do "start-up".
Today, a truck load of pre-fabricated pipe arrives and apprentices or laborers unload it. There are no more pipe fitters... now they are simply "pipe installers". They can not layout, detail or fabricate. I'm not picking on the pipefitters........ It's the same in residential construction. Everything arrives "modular" and is installed.

Once the piping is installed a special "start up crew" arrives and gets the equipment online. Again, they have "ZERO" knowledge of how the plant was built or installed.

The downfall of America will be, in part, due to there being very few true craftsmen / jack of all trades.

IMHO

Hobo

[Gus_Mahn]

Originally Posted by hobohilton

----------------------------------------

Well......... as a result of craftsmen not knowing the basics, the construction world has changed. 50 years ago, a truck load of pipe and fittings would arrive on a job-site. The craftsmen would unload it, clean, prep, layout, detail, fabricate, install, test, and finally do "start-up".
Today, a truck load of pre-fabricated pipe arrives and apprentices or laborers unload it. There are no more pipe fitters... now they are simply "pipe installers". They can not layout, detail or fabricate. I'm not picking on the pipefitters........ It's the same in residential construction. Everything arrives "modular" and is installed.

Once the piping is installed a special "start up crew" arrives and gets the equipment online. Again, they have "ZERO" knowledge of how the plant was built or installed.

The downfall of America will be, in part, due to there being very few true craftsmen / jack of all trades.

IMHO

Hobo

I agree. We are mostly bolt fitters at my work. While most of us can do the fitting, sketching, and fabrication of pipe. The company almost always cuts out one or two of the steps for us. We are sometimes less skilled than fitters of previous generations. Things are more standardized and we don't see the variety that the pipe trades saw in the past.

For me the US system of measure is ridiculously cumbersome. Feet, inches, and fractions of inch with three units in one measurement each with it's own non base 10 fractionation. Personally I feel this introduces lots of chances for error. Unless I'm doing long pieces of pipe, I'll work just in inches and fractions of inches. I'm not too proud to use a calculator, and I use it to do the conversions on my sketches.