Chinese Welders

[dstevens]

Originally Posted by lugweld

You'd have to send it in an awful lot of times to make up a 3000 dollar price gap.

If you rely on your tools for a living that gap can be made up in a single failure. In most markets with a name brand if you have an issue you can drop it off. No packing and shipping required. Because they control their manufacturing and supply chains they can insure parts and model availability. How long were you guys waiting for your new line? Your 2010 line was four months from 2011. As I've said before you guys are serving an under served market but to put your company on the same level as Miller or Lincoln or ESAB or Hypertherm is laughable.

[joedirt1966]

Originally Posted by lugweld

You'd have to send it in an awful lot of times to make up a 3000 dollar price gap.

That depends on the models being compared.

My first thought is that I don't want to have to send it in at all.

I'm not trying to disrespect new competition in any industry. However, at least from my perspective, consistent reliability is very very important. I work hard for my money and expect a certain level of quality when I exchange it for goods and services.

The best warranty is one that is never needed because the product is consistently reliable from the start.

SundownIII has mentioned on several occasions that he is still using a Miller Syncro 250 from 1977. That fits my definition of reliable.

[bert the welder]

Originally Posted by oxy moron

If USA made less quality welders then (example Italy, would you buy it, just because its made in USA?

Unfortunately, many of your fellow countrymen are narrow minded, flag wavers that probably would.
I'm with you Oxy. If your not buying a countries product because of political reasons or buying "made in your country" to support your home businesses, that's one thing and also totally fine. But this ridiculous posturing of American rah rah rah, snort, scratch, everyone else is inferior, blah blah blah is just garbage.
Everywhere you look, there is crap being made and the highest quality products being made. Why? Because there are people buying both. And price does not equal quality. Wages paid does not equal quality, either.
Unionized America shows it's true colors every time they walk into a Wal-Mart.

[lugweld]

Originally Posted by Boostinjdm

Lot's of people fail at it too.....

Boostin

Success is built upon the back of failure. People who never fail, never succeed. If your scared of failure, you'll never have anything, and never try anything.

[joedirt1966]

Originally Posted by lugweld

Boostin

Success is built upon the back of failure. People who never fail, never succeed. If your scared of failure, you'll never have anything, and never try anything.

I can agree with this statement to a point. However, and I think most would agree that it's better to work out as many failures as humanly possible before an item or service makes it to the market place.

I work in the medical field and there is very little tolerance to failure or malfunction. It is a basic expectation that we do not make mistakes (at least not on the patient in question). When failures occur, they can be very costly.

As unrealistic as it may seem, I tend to have the same expectations on goods and services that I purchase (i.e. very little tolerance to failure or malfunction).

[dstevens]

Originally Posted by joedirt1966

As unrealistic as it may seem, I tend to have the same expectations on goods and services that I purchase (i.e. very little tolerance to failure or malfunction).

I don't think that's unrealistic. One place where the importers have a cost advantage is they don't have the infrastructures to support the the name brands do. They can pass that cost reduction to the consumer. The downside is that because they don't have those infrastructures and don't control the process they can't have the same level of QC. If nothing else the importers have made the name brands take notice of the lower end of the market. It will be interesting to see if they cede the lower end of the market to the importers or if they (like Thermadyne with the 95S) come up with a Pacific Rim or Eastern European import to compete.

[Marcuspboldt]

The Chinese's plasma cutter works fine for me.

[joedirt1966]

I applaud the efforts that Everlast has taken to improve the quality of their products. In addition, I think it is admirable that they have stepped in to help customers who have purchased from their competitors ( mainly GiantTech) who ended up with a problem machine only to find out that their “warranty” was useless. Those who have been helped seem to be happy with Everlast’s intervention.

In fact, I have considered purchasing one of their TIG machines based on their more recent positive reviews. If in the future I continue to see good reviews of their products, I may indeed purchase one. In addition, I wouldn’t mind paying more as long as long term product reliability becomes the norm.

[lugweld]

Originally Posted by dstevens

If you rely on your tools for a living that gap can be made up in a single failure. In most markets with a name brand if you have an issue you can drop it off. No packing and shipping required. Because they control their manufacturing and supply chains they can insure parts and model availability. How long were you guys waiting for your new line? Your 2010 line was four months from 2011. As I've said before you guys are serving an under served market but to put your company on the same level as Miller or Lincoln or ESAB or Hypertherm is laughable.

You are confusing companies. Our 2010 line came out in Nov 2009, debuted at Fabtech in Chicago. Our new 2011 line additions will debut at fabtech in Atlanta.

[dstevens]

Originally Posted by lugweld

You are confusing companies. Our 2010 line came out in Nov 2009, debuted at Fabtech in Chicago. Our new 2011 line additions will debut at fabtech in Atlanta.

I stand corrected.

You guys were the ones that were out of stock for a while this summer on several models. Or didn't have the parts in country to replace the guy's torch that didn't ship from the factory. Or the guy who's cutter failed nearly out of the box but you didn't have any in stock (can you not fix them?) and left him on the hook for a couple of months because you didn't have stock or parts.

That's one reason why you guys aren't on a par with the name brands in terms of the scope and depth of your operation. The big boys know enough to be able to keep enough parts on hand for such instances. What's going to happen in a couple years when some of these units need service and your contractor is several versions into revised product?

[lugweld]

Originally Posted by dstevens

I stand corrected.

You guys were the ones that were out of stock for a while this summer on several models. Or didn't have the parts in country to replace the guy's torch that didn't ship from the factory. Or the guy who's cutter failed nearly out of the box but you didn't have any in stock (can you not fix them?) and left him on the hook for a couple of months because you didn't have stock or parts.

That's one reason why you guys aren't on a par with the name brands in terms of the scope and depth of your operation. The big boys know enough to be able to keep enough parts on hand for such instances. What's going to happen in a couple years when some of these units need service and your contractor is several versions into revised product?

We were out of stock on 4 models(out of more than 20) for about 3-4 weeks depending on the unit (250EX may have been more). But customers warranties were honored and we maintained parts inventory for warranty. A I don't recall any major torch issues. Torches have usually not been a problem. Parts for all but 2 torches we have had are available locally through many distributors. Our Migs use true factory Binzel torches. The trafimet designed torches are also available through many lws, and are compatable and interchangeable with weld craft. The panasonic designed torches however, are not as easily sourced locally, though the older pt31x is a widely available design from companies like ESAB. However, most consumables are available easily on the net. If there was a problem, then it was probably on one of these torches . The only thing I can recall is the cups on the pilot arc ag 60 torch were shipped without the stand off groove. The parts did fit, but would not retain the wire groove. In the meantime with unit down emergency orders, our Canadian distribution arm drop shipped units directly. and we do the same on their units when the need arises. Their delivery cycle is offset from ours purposefully for this reason.

As far as the big guys maintaining parts inventories...I have had the "big" guys back order parts on me on current/recent units. A couple of years ago, I had Lincoln backorder a part on me for my Ranger. It was the control board. I was told they had run out and needed to make a new batch. I eventually had to get it rebuilt by another company. It happens. Worse yet, I have waited until the lws or repair center had enough to make a minimum order.


As far as what to do in a couple of years...I see you only have part knowledge, not the full story. Customers units are typically replaced, not repaired. If we are several units into "new designs" the customer receives the new designed unit, and do not wait on the unit to be shipped back to the factory for repairs, unless its one of the older no longer carried Mosfet units. But specifically, we do maintain an inventory of factory fully rebuilt units for no longer sold MOSFET units, and even now with the Giant Tech issue, we can supply parts. Our current factory has the capability to rebuild any unit we send them, since they can custom build anything for us...and the older designs were manufactured by many companies, the parts are plentiful. For customers that have easily replaced parts on new units, and they feel comfortable with the repair, and it suits all concerned, we do send parts for small items. Most circuits are plug and play now, so repairs can be done on most parts in 15 minutes or less.

No we are not saying we are bigger or better. We have dealt with the customer directly, which many people enjoy and prefer, though it does have some drawbacks in some cases, and that is why we are working on a dealer network and distribution system. We have made performance statements about our units, regarding arc quality, and unit ability. And since I have been around and a couple of others in the company, we had made serious performance evaluations regarding the ability of the units, and made corrections and improvements in our figures where needed. Maybe you confuse those statements with us equating our size of our company as equal to others. But the argument against us seems to be transforming as more and more Pros publicly get hands on our products and the "poor quality weld" argument vanishes, and our claims are verified. The only real thing "laughable" is that people don't really know or understand our product keep attacking it.

[worntorn]

It seems every thing I order from the local Linde , our Lincoln dealer here, is backordered. They always quote two weeks but it takes four weeks to actually receive the goods. Their attitude is that you are lucky to get the part at all.

I've ordered a couple of items from Everlast, they showed up in my PO box in nothing flat. I needed a couple of small items in order to adapt a South weld size 9 torch to the Everlast.
I dealt with Alex @ Everlast sales. Not only did he take interest in what I was doing, he sent me the parts free of charge (shipping cost only) just to help out.

Nothing is free at Linde, and I hate dealing with the rude salespeople there.

As far as the big guys having everything is stock, forget it, you must be smoking crack or worse!
On top of that , get a price on a new Circuit board for an Invertec sometime. You might just as well through the welder away if it needs one!

[farmersamm]

I had the opurtunity to run a Thermal Arc 95 Inverter while on vacation.

It performed well with 3/32 stainless rod.

But it didn't perform too well with 5p, or 7018. There was difficulty in keeping these rods lit. Some change in technique yielded better results.

I believe these go for around 300 on Ebay.

The closest Lincoln machine, the V-155 runs 700. But it has two arc modes which would have been beneficial in the solving the problems we encountered. It has soft arc, and hard arc (arc force adjustments). Also it's capable of running larger rods. Plus there's a standard 3yr Lincoln warranty. And the duty cycles are higher too. This is a serious machine.

If I had a crying need for a portable small inverter I'd hold out for the Lincoln. I need something that performs well, without having to worry about massaging it. If I were a weekend hobbiest, I'd consider the Thermal Arc, but I would also tell you that it isn't the best machine.

My theory has always been to buy the best. Save the money, and plunk it down.

You can buy stopgap machines, but ultimately you'll have to upgrade, and in the process you've thrown out the money spent for the lesser machine.

Let's say you buy the cheaper machine, it is less than optimal, and you decide to buy a good machine. You spent 300 + 700. Ultimately the better machine, which you really needed in the first place.......winds up costing 1000 So, be patient, and buy better machines to begin with.

[zapster]

Lug..

A couple of years ago Larry (Giant Tech) brought a bunch of his brandy new machines to a class I held..

Tozzi administered the beatings..
Failure was the norm.
3 out of 5 crapped out and it only took less than 1/2 hr.

One machine did not work AT ALL right out of the box..

If your machines are the same thing...and they must be since you can assist those with a GT machine..

My advice is to stay away from them and get a Miller or Lincoln..
You may not like it but I am just going on what we all witnessed..
And it was not good.
Not at all.

They may be good for hobbies or tinkering around but there is NO WAY I would ever depend on these for keeping a buisness up and running all day..

Just ask Tozzi what he thinks..

...zap!

[zapster]

Here is a copy/paste from the other site next door that Tozzi wrote about the test..

Well here goes, the first combo machne burned about 1 1/2" of a 1/8" 6010 then would do nothing but max. Combo machine number two, I played arond with some 1/8" 6010 to get a feel for it. It runs it just fine for a small machine, but dosent have enough OCV to keep a long arc lit. The "torture" part of the test was as follows, 5/32" 7018(because it won't run 3/16") run on max. It ran the 7018 quite well, but 3 rods in it shut down. On to the plasma cutter, plasma number one NFG, plasma 2 it cut ok but you need to keep a super tight arc, or it will snuff out. The combo machine that shut down after 3 sticks, cooled off enough to try the plasma on it. It cut ok, but once again you need to keep a super tight arc. I will give Giant Guy the benifit of the failures here, the machines came from a new factory, and I might add he was the only one who would let us do a hands on with theese machines. I was hoping he was gonna bring one of the machines Denny has to try out. My take on these machines is they have a place, just not in an all day everyday welding shop. If you want to start welding, have misc. repairs, or just like melting things and making sparks they should be fine.




Take it for what it is..

...zap!

[William McCormick Jr]

Originally Posted by farmersamm

I had the opurtunity to run a Thermal Arc 95 Inverter while on vacation.

It performed well with 3/32 stainless rod.

But it didn't perform too well with 5p, or 7018. There was difficulty in keeping these rods lit. Some change in technique yielded better results.

I believe these go for around 300 on Ebay.

The closest Lincoln machine, the V-155 runs 700. But it has two arc modes which would have been beneficial in the solving the problems we encountered. It has soft arc, and hard arc (arc force adjustments). Also it's capable of running larger rods. Plus there's a standard 3yr Lincoln warranty. And the duty cycles are higher too. This is a serious machine.

If I had a crying need for a portable small inverter I'd hold out for the Lincoln. I need something that performs well, without having to worry about massaging it. If I were a weekend hobbiest, I'd consider the Thermal Arc, but I would also tell you that it isn't the best machine.

My theory has always been to buy the best. Save the money, and plunk it down.

You can buy stopgap machines, but ultimately you'll have to upgrade, and in the process you've thrown out the money spent for the lesser machine.

Let's say you buy the cheaper machine, it is less than optimal, and you decide to buy a good machine. You spent 300 + 700. Ultimately the better machine, which you really needed in the first place.......winds up costing 1000 So, be patient, and buy better machines to begin with.

I used a thermal ARC 150 to do some touch start TIG with. Very quiet very strong and consistent. I did not ARC weld with it however, I suspect it would output nicely. Ran on 110 volts.

What size 70-18 and what amperage did you run? I usually run 70-18 hot with a little portable Lincoln AC machine. My 70-18 3/32 is always glowing when I get to the end. Ha-ha.

Sincerely,


William McCormick

[ZTFab]

Originally Posted by William McCormick Jr

I used a thermal ARC 150 to do some touch start TIG with. Very quiet very strong and consistent. I did not ARC weld with it however, I suspect it would output nicely. Ran on 110 volts.

What size 70-18 and what amperage did you run? I usually run 70-18 hot with a little portable Lincoln AC machine. My 70-18 3/32 is always glowing when I get to the end. Ha-ha.

Sincerely,


William McCormick

So you didn't do any welding with it at all?

[lugweld]

Zap,

My, how things have changed.

That wasn't a recent event.

The chinese welder industry is a complex industry. There are over 200 welder manufacturers. Many manufacture based off a common product. I said "Many" not most or all. It just happens that the lower quality units were the ones that hit the market first.

The older units were from Chiry. It was one of those companies that did. We do not use those products any longer, and it is widely known. The parts, though slightly different will interchange for most components throughout the different factories that make the similar line. Our factory marches to a different tune, manufacturing its own boards and has the technology to fix any of these other companies machines. Our current factory does not make the same machine, although the older units from Chiry are undoubtedly similar. The parts we are providing to Larry's customers are from our old inventory, or from similar components from our current plasma SuperCut Mosfet line. A HF board can be widely varied in construction, but still have the same function and hooks up similarly and would not necessarily be restricted to IGBT or Mosfet.

I know you are a moderator now, but now, with all the information out there about our newer product line and its performance and general reliability, you haven't kept up to date, not about welding per se, but about the import industry in general. Your facts about the demonstration are no doubt correct, but cannot be construed to be a reflection on our product line or any other import companies product line. Admittedly there are small importers still trying to reinvent the wheel these junk factories, but we are not. Our Migs are among the best welding units I have ever welded with and have a very very small issue rate.

Everlast welders are in 1000's of welding shops, factories, and even oil derricks and growing, being hammered daily. The information is out there, even if you choose to ignore it. I even know of one company that is replacing its portable inverters with ours.What you may not be able to imagine, has already happened.


Samm,

I think you'd be hard pressed to find any similarities with our PowerArc series and the s 95. The s 95 is a chinese unit, but not designed for anything but the easiest welding rods, and very simple design. Its a good unit, but only 95 amps.

We're moving most of these units to pro welders for their portability. They have hot start and adaptive arc force control. The 6010 setting allow the unit to perform flawlessly on the 6010 rod, and arc initiation is immediate. Puddle control is excellent. 7018's come off like butter. They are either 160 amps or 200 amp DC units with 60% duty cycles. I have a dealer that has sold several to pros and not one complaint or problem, even shipped them to the most humid locations in S. Fl and the Bahamas on construction sites. And we have had 0 failures on these units to date.

[zapster]

Originally Posted by lugweld

I know you are a moderator now, but now, with all the information out there about our newer product line and its performance and general reliability, you haven't kept up to date, not about welding per se, but about the import industry in general.

I have NO REASON to even care about Import welders..
I don't have one..
I don't need one..
I will never get one.
I saw what happened and that was enough..
All the improvements in the world will not change my opinion..
And that's all it is..An Opinion.
I don't need to keep up with the "Latest and Greatest"..


Some people need the new car every year..
I needed a replacement car for the '89 Merc I had so I got a '81 Chevy instead..
Looks good next to the '66 Falcon..

Thats just the way I am.
Call me backwards but it is what it is..

...zap!

[joedirt1966]

The results of the GiantTech experience would have left a "bad taste" in any reasonable person’s mouth. (1 DOA unit + a 60% crap out rate of the other 5 welders.)

A head to head unbiased industrial comparison of the new Everlast line (Tig and Mig, not multifunction units) with Miller and/or Lincoln would be quite interesting.

On the one hand, if Everlast welders tested very favorably, they might be able to win over some naysayers and gain some desirable positive press on the Welding Web forum. ($$ Caching, increased sales for Everlast $$.)

On the other hand, if their welders did not test favorably, it could prove to be a catastrophic business decision. (What the #ell were we thinking! *@#%^)

Ideally, a comparison would be unbiased and performed by professionals not associated with any of the three companies (Everlast, Miller, or Lincoln).

The logistics, fairness, and risks of such a test might prove to be too formidable to ever become a reality.

Anyway, I think it would make a good read.

[Rojodiablo]

Originally Posted by joedirt1966

The results of the GiantTech experience would have left a "bad taste" in any reasonable person’s mouth. (1 DOA unit + a 60% crap out rate of the other 5 welders.)

A head to head unbiased industrial comparison of the new Everlast line (Tig and Mig, not multifunction units) with Miller and/or Lincoln would be quite interesting.

On the one hand, if Everlast welders tested very favorably, they might be able to win over some naysayers and gain some desirable positive press on the Welding Web forum. ($$ Caching, increased sales for Everlast $$.)

On the other hand, if their welders did not test favorably, it could prove to be a catastrophic business decision. (What the #ell were we thinking! *@#%^)

Ideally, a comparison would be unbiased and performed by professionals not associated with any of the three companies (Everlast, Miller, or Lincoln).

The logistics, fairness, and risks of such a test might prove to be too formidable to ever become a reality.

Anyway, I think it would make a good read.

Well, as interesting as it might sound, you'll need to find another place to try such folly. To quote the late, great Jim Morrison, regarding The Doors being blackballed from the Ed Sullivan Show..." The Ed Sullivan show?? We already DID the Ed Sullivan show....."
I'd say the entire 'test' went down like a lead balloon. But in reality, Led Zeppelin did not suck! So, no comparison can be made.

We already DID the welder testing show.

It's not for the worry that the machines would be cherry-picked. Or the machines would be the 'next generation, and not yet available'. It's not for worry that a paying sponsor would want a favorable review. We already saw all that. That's in the past. What we have now is the knowledge that 'The test' was one of the most divisive times in WW history.

From what I hear??? The units have improved. At least one of the companies has a lot of hands on abusive testing going on. The companies have made strides to work toward better and better still service. I think for their target audience, they are a viable option. I have been given an open invitation to take one of ANY welder of my choice from one of the local companies, and run it into the ground if I can. I STILL can't seem to get my shop space relocated. As such, I have not accepted the offer, though someday I hope to have one to offer for in house training and testing. It would be nice to have a unit that folks could come try welding with, to see if they are really wanting to make that leap.
I am now busy on big projects working for another shop; they supply all the metal melting stuff. The welders we use are the size of locomotive engines (figuratively speaking) and they all have to be new energy star CARB approved machines. Big machines, big motors, big jobs. Big, big money to bring our fleet up to 2010 standards.....

It really does not make sense to compare BB guns to bazookas. And the choice between a Miller or Everlast, Lincoln or Longevity is kinda like a church or a mosque at ground zero. It's gonna start people getting really hot under the collar. And I know better from last time, and we just aren't going there.


FWIW, I trust Everlast more than I trust the people who want a mosque at ground zero.

Closed. It's been fun kids!