Is there any value to this lathe?

[fredschrom]

Oh a last thought a morse taper ( your live center ) has a flat on the end so it locks in place and won't twist. Don't try twisting it out you willbreak something if you do.

[wb4rt]

Fred,
Thanks for responding and I may be using the wrong terms. I backed the whole assembly out of the tailstock, so I have a shaft(?) with threads that the handle turns in and out with. The other end has a dead center (or live center, I'm not clear on the difference). It does not turn in the piece. I'm thinking I should be able to drive the center out, assuming it is tapered, and then use the Jacobs chuck. The chuck has a taper and a flat end that I think is supposed to seat into the piece.

Am I completely wrong? I don't want to damage the piece in any way.

[fredschrom]

Your drill chuck should be a morse also, yes if you can't get the center out of the tailstock you can drive it out, I would use a brass punch though, you don't want to bugger up the tailstock. Before you get doing that though spray pentetrating oil in it good and let it sit a while, then try tapping ( notice not driving ) it out, it shouldn't take much force a good bump and the tapper will release the center. I doubt rust got into the mating surfaces on the taper. If your tailstock is not spinning freely you need to take it apart and get it doing so anyway which probably means cleaning polishing and lubricating.

[GBM]

Originally Posted by fredschrom

Oh a last thought a morse taper ( your live center ) has a flat on the end so it locks in place and won't twist. Don't try twisting it out you willbreak something if you do.

I do not believe that to be true. I think the design of a Morse Taper is so that it has enough friction to run the tool when things are correct... but will allow slip if something goes wrong..
This is to try to protect the rest of the machine...like the gears, etc.. you do not want to ruin a whole machine due to some stoppage at the working point...
That is why cleanliness of a Morse taper inside is so important..and there are special cleaner tools to be sure you have all the contact you are supposed to have for the friction needed.

I have seen other types of taper drives which do have that flat tang on the end...

[fredschrom]

When I get to the shop I will check, I know I have flat end but I never looked inside the taper, I have an adapter so it will be easier to look inside.

And yes morse are a precise fit, and its why I am cautioning to be delicate to not mess it up.

[GBM]

"End types
Morse tapers are of the self-holding variety, and can have three types of ends:
tang (illustrated) to facilitate removal with a drift
threaded to be held in place with a drawbar
flat (no tang or threaded section)
Self holding tapers rely on a heavy preponderance of axial load over radial load to transmit high torques"
from
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morse_taper#Morse

[WyoRoy]

Burt, when you're looking at a center chucked up in the tailstock, it's dead if the tip doesn't revolve and live if it spins.

Once you get your dead center out, don't be too quick to chuck in your drill chuck into the tailstock. Inspect the female taper of the tailstock and lightly stone any burrs and remove any corrosion there may be in there. Go lightly, and if you have the ability to do a bit further inspection, use some blue and a new male taper to figure out whether the tailstock taper needs any further work.

[WyoRoy]

As far as that dead center goes, looks like its probably a MT1. If so, I have a few sitting idle up at the shop that are worthless for anything I have. They came from a jeweler out in Oregon that I bought a scrap box of lathe bits and stuff from for the knurling tool that was also in the box. If you get that lathe up and running, post me a PM and I'll send 'em on out along with some lathe bits and way oil.

[wb4rt]

Thanks for the offer, WyoRoy.
I will take you up on that as I get closer to knowing if and how well it will work.

I appreciate all the comments from you, Fred, and all the other members on here. I thought this thread would not attract much attention, but it is apparent how much the guys on here know and how much they like their machines - old and current. I respect your knowledge, experience, and really appreciate your advice.

Hopefully this weekend I can get the dead (Thanks for the explanation WyoRoy) center out and inspect its condition. That is the real first step in where I can go with this lathe.

[wb4rt]

Update on my progress.
This week-end I took the tailstock to a local machine shop and my guy there quickly popped the dead center out with a manual press. So Step one is finished. I can mount the Jacob Chuck in the tailstock.
I also started cleaning it all up and looking it over. I found one broken bolt but I got it out with an easy-out. Two of the handles have nuts to hold them and the threads were unusable, so I re-threaded them.
I need to pick up a couple of roll-pins for the handles tomorrow. So far, no money spent.
I cleaned the cross-slide and it works well.
I cleaned, oiled, and moved the tailstock from one end to the other. It lines up well (by sight anyway) with the 3 jaw chuck. I mounted one of the pieces that I want to be able to re-bore and aligned the tailstock up. I think it will work well once I get power applied.

From my limited knowledge and by looking, it does appear the main shaft uses Babbit bearings. But there is no noticable play. Might be a different story with power applied.

I removed the power drive (?) and I'm going to look for a large v-groove pulley like the jackshaft Roy pictured above.

I'm learning a lot and so far I'm encouraged that with just some money for pulleys and belts, and maybe another motor, I will have a lathe! Admittedly a limited use lathe, but still a lathe!!!

I'll post some pictures when there is something new to see. So far just a little cleaner and the chuck in the tailstock.

Thanks to everyone for their help. Please feel free to add any new ideas or suggestions.

[fredschrom]

Jacob chuck to the tailstock.

Stay on morse taper on the tailstock. Look on ebay a Jacobs to morse drill adapter is cheap, of just get a new chuck on the right Morse...again look on ebay.

[puddytat]

Hi Burt, like the man say, only fit for a museum unless you're really desperate.

People that want to do serious work on machinery like this, even if'n it was "restored' back to new, don't know anything about machining......donate it to the CurbGuy from Ohio who'll give it a retirement home where it belongs.

It wasn't mentioned whether or not you had another lathe that was regularly being used, and had nothing else to do but mess with old machine tools 'cos you just like to, same as some people like messing with old cars.

Answer to your original question....there is not enough going for this machine to make it really worth while to take up valuable bench space, when much later model lathes, even Chinese models, can do a much better job, as is....and any money spent, read....... new 3 jaw chuck at $400, new 4 jaw chuck at $400, and countless bits and pieces just to make it work....all up price to be spent...at least a grand.....you can buy a good Chinese lathe with all bells and whistles for that much.
Ian..

[tnjind]

I am glad to see someone re-using an AMERICAN made piece and not just go buy a chinese machine.
I do own both, but I got tell you I smile a little more when my US made machine does a nice job... with no problems time and time again.

[Pavinsteelman]

Hi half horse motor is fine 16 " South Bend uses 3 hp . CDCO web site is good for cheap but ok tooling . Enco , KBC MSC and Grangers also have all you need . Harbor Freight for a digital verneer caliper to see what it measures Also they sell cheap link vee belts to drive it . Make a belt the right length flip it over and run it on the flat pully . Measure the shaft and get a vee belt pully from Grangers with one for your motor too . Watch Ebay prices for used are sometimes higher than new in catalogs ??? Good luck John

[tnjind]

Originally Posted by Pavinsteelman

Hi half horse motor is fine 16 " South Bend uses 3 hp . CDCO web site is good for cheap but ok tooling . Enco , KBC MSC and Grangers also have all you need . Harbor Freight for a digital verneer caliper to see what it measures Also they sell cheap link vee belts to drive it . Make a belt the right length flip it over and run it on the flat pully . Measure the shaft and get a vee belt pully from Grangers with one for your motor too . Watch Ebay prices for used are sometimes higher than new in catalogs ??? Good luck John

CDCO?
What is that one? I am interested.

[Pavinsteelman]

www.cdcotools.com they are in Shaumburg Ill . Imported tools used to go to Cabin Fever in York they sell China stuff good for home shop use . I would take apart the top line shaft ,pull off a flat belt pully and replace it with a vee belt die cast in the right bore from Grangers 25 dollars or less and hook up a motor .

[farmshop]

If you look you can find multi sized sheaves made for drill presses that have four or so grooves that would give you additional speed selections

[Warpspeed]

While this may not be the best and finest lathe in the entire world, it is a great way to learn all about lathes.
Get it running, fix up all the annoying little things, and get yourself some books on lathe work.

The learning process never stops, but you will quickly discover the limitations of your own lathe (we all do), and start noticing desirable features on other lathes that your lathe does not have.
I can think of quite a few limitations my own lathe has, that I only realized after I found there was something I could not do.

After a while, you will be able to look at any late and quickly form a judgment about it, and eventually when you least expect it, an opportunity to move up to something better will present itself at a price you can afford.

We all have to start somewhere, and what you now have is a great beginning and will open up a whole new challenging and exciting world, and enable you to make some very useful parts.

[wb4rt]

I'm still working on this, but slowly.
1. removed the flat drive pulley on the overhead shaft so I can now replace it with a 9"-10" v-groove pulley. It is 1 1/4" shaft.
2. decided to get a used 3/4 hp motor to dedicate to it. Should pick up next week.
3. found a sturdy steel work table on CL for $30. Pick it up tomorrow.
4. ordered and received South Bend's "How to Use a Lathe", read about half so far. Thanks for the idea, Roy.
5. plan to clean up the work table, add a motor mount so that I can adjust belt tension this week-end
6. need to buy a flat belt
7. see what happens!

I'll probably have $100-125 in it but the only thing that might be throwaway at this point will be the flat belt, v belt, and maybe the drive pulley. So far it is a pretty cheap lesson on lathes.

Stay tuned. I'll post pictures when I get it mounted on the table.

[WyoRoy]

Burt, no need to replace that flat belt pulley you just pulled off. South Bend 9" lathes have been using a motor V-pulley to flat belt large drive pulley for years...the V-belt rides on the flat pulley well as long as its lined up. I'm sure there are probably other makes that used a similar method. The V-belt on a flat pulley will provide you with as much tension as that small lathe will ever stand. You'll need a countershaft assembly to rocker the tension on the flat belt.

Check out the following picture and note the V-belt from the motor to the large flat belt drive pulley. Also, check out the handle on the rear of the lathe proper that attaches by a horz. shaft to the countershaft assembly...that's your tensioning device for that rocker pivot countershaft assembly.

Hope that 3/4 hp motor you're getting is a slower speed model such as a 1470 or there abouts.

[fredschrom]

Definately keep your flat belts, way too much trouble and cost to convert. If your having trouble finding them Mcmaster has them, but there are cheaper places to find them if you look.

On the morse taper I checked there are tang and non tang versions.

[Pavinsteelman]

I turned vee belts over both standard and link and ran on ftat pullys on me 1851 gould shaper . 3-4 step sheeves seem only to come in 1/2 & 5/8 bore been looking in flea markets for them also a good place for cheap motors .If needed get a variable frequency drive for speed control , not very expensive . John

[Andrew_D]

The advice to check the Antique section over on Practicalmachinist was only half right...There's lots of knowledge on that forum, but don't mention that you have an "atlas" lathe....that brand is not welcome over there and will get your thread locked. Try chaski.org instead.

Andrew

[GBM]

Originally Posted by fredschrom

......On the morse taper I checked there are tang and non tang versions.

The Main Point to the Tang discussion earlier is THIS.... the tang on a Morse Taper is NOT for drive purposes...as I mentioned in post # 54 or so of this thread...

""""

Originally Posted by fredschrom
"Oh a last thought a morse taper ( your live center ) has a flat on the end so it locks in place and won't twist. Don't try twisting it out you willbreak something if you do."--Fredschrom

"I do not believe that to be true. I think the design of a Morse Taper is so that it has enough friction to run the tool when things are correct... but will allow slip if something goes wrong..
This is to try to protect the rest of the machine...like the gears, etc.. you do not want to ruin a whole machine due to some stoppage at the working point...
That is why cleanliness of a Morse taper inside is so important..and there are special cleaner tools to be sure you have all the contact you are supposed to have for the friction needed. "

"End types
Morse tapers are of the self-holding variety, and can have three types of ends:
tang (illustrated) to facilitate removal with a drift
threaded to be held in place with a drawbar
flat (no tang or threaded section)
Self holding tapers rely on a heavy preponderance of axial load over radial load to transmit high torques"
from
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morse_taper#Morse

[Old Doug]

You need to keep jack shaft flat belt in order to keep rpms low. I wonder if you guy that put this lathe down have ever used a lathe before? Its not something to make space shutle parts on but it will make a lot of prodjects posable.