Cat Walk Design

[wagin]

I have a small fabrication business. A local manufacturing company contacted me wanting 42' of catwalk, platform fabricated and installed. The platform is a switch back, to allow rolling trash bins access to exterior dumpsters. Ideally, I want a certified structural print to work from but the client presented me to design and build. Any business owners encountered this ? What is the best way to handle this and still get the job? Should I contract a structural engineer for the design, bid the design and run the risk of loosing the engineer's fee if not awarded the job? Or..over design the job myself and bid accordingly. Yeah.....I know.....but I do not want to miss this job.

[Insaneride]

pix
pix
pix

[dave powelson]

Originally Posted by wagin

I have a small fabrication business. A local manufacturing company contacted me wanting 42' of catwalk, platform fabricated and installed. The platform is a switch back, to allow rolling trash bins access to exterior dumpsters. Ideally, I want a certified structural print to work from but the client presented me to design and build. Any business owners encountered this ? What is the best way to handle this and still get the job? Should I contract a structural engineer for the design, bid the design and run the risk of loosing the engineer's fee if not awarded the job? Or..over design the job myself and bid accordingly. Yeah.....I know.....but I do not want to miss this job.

The customer's asking for 2 distinctly separate items:

1-A certified design (signed off by a PE). Apparently they do not understand this, or want engineering on the cheap. You need to discuss this with the actual principal--not some clerk type.

2-A bid on the certified design

In order for any bids to be 'apples for apples', everybody needs to be bidding
off the design.

If you engage and pay a PE for the design, then this is only done by written
agreement with the customer, that you will be paid for this.

More than likely--this will require local permitting, which usually demands a stamped, signed off drwg. by PE.
Presumably you do bother with permitting?
If you're so desperate to get this job at any costs--then pop for the PE yourself,
submit the design and bid......only to see the customer let out the design to
bid, for somebody else to actually get the job. --that's 'HOW?" it works.

Moral--Some of the jobs not done---are the biggest contributors to one's bottom line, emotional and physical health.

[Insaneride]

It sux when the PE makes the most money and does the least work. I cant help but would like to see pics if you get the job.

[walker]

There is really no need for an engineer here unless the bins are unusually heavy. Look into your local commercial building code, design according to that, you can do your own drawings, and then apply for your permit.

[Gjertson]

I would be leary of designing this project myself. Unforyunatly so much of the construction business is about mitigation of liability. If an employee has an accident on this ramp and files a claim some insurance company lawer will be scrutinizing the ramp and trying to find a way out of paying the claim. If an engineer stamps the design and engineering than you are only respocible for exicuting the design. Maybe armchair engineer it for the bid and include design and engineering fees so you wouldn't be out that cost up front. just my .02.

[wagin]

Here are some sketch ups of the design I proposed. The sketches do not show the planned structural cross bracing on the legs, nor the kick plate and anchor footing. The main componets are 2' square tube...1 1/2" square tube for the railing stringers....1 1/2" angle iron is to be thew cross bracing....3/8", 6" x 6" flat bar is to be the feet....11ga decking plate.

[74hotrod]

What are your plans for railing at the dump site? Meaning are you going to put removeable chains for the hand rail so they can dump the bins into the larger bins? The design looks good,but if your not going to use a PE then I would certanly over build the project on cross bracing and make sure the railing is 42" tall with at least a 4" toeboard.JMO

[Fegenbush]

I would be willing to sign and stamp a design, if that is what you require. It's not my usual method of doing business, but if it helps you out. Send me a PM and we can talk details, if you would like.

Fegenbush

[rabidchimp]

Wagin,

I like the design. How much time into the drawing?
-Aaron

[wagin]

-- Yes, there will be latching safety chains at dumpster access.

-- I do feel that I over designed the project. The legs, up rites, floor rails and trusses are to be 11ga., 2" sq tube. The exterior leg/ joist bracing is to be 1 1/2" sq tube pyramid at each bay. The interior leg bracing is to be "X" braced with 1 1/2" angle iron. The railing is 11ga., 1 1/2" sq tube at 42" high top rail. The deck plate is 11ga.

-- The sketchup took aprox. 2 hrs....hince the lack of detail.

I submitted what I considered a very high side bid. The customer replied saying the quote was twice the planned budget, inquired about wiggle room and is willing to cut check Monday. I reduced my bid by 5% hinged upon fewer workers and an increased delivery time. We'll find out in a few hours if it's a go.

[tapwelder]

Looks like you need a handrail or a higher guard?

[rabidchimp]

Right on, Wagin'. Hope they bite.
-Aaron

[wagin]

OK, here is the latest design the customer wants...

no ramp up to meet dumpsters. Flat platform with cradle. The dumpsters are to be angled...??? According to the customer, the trash truck can angle it's lift arms 45 degrees.

[DSW]

Have you seen how most of those guys handle dumpsters? Not sure if I'd want the dumpster cradle attached to the catwalk. I've seen them F up some pretty heavy concrete bollards with dumpsters. Get a waiver on damages and get them to sign a contract with you for the repair work. You'll make a mint. Also since the lids flip back over the rear, I don't think your idea will work well. I think the lid will always be in the way.

Honestly I think your original idea works better if you simply delete the ramp. I don't really think that angled idea will work at all.

[wagin]

Originally Posted by DSW

Have you seen how most of those guys handle dumpsters? Not sure if I'd want the dumpster cradle attached to the catwalk. I've seen them F up some pretty heavy concrete bollards with dumpsters. Get a waiver on damages and get them to sign a contract with you for the repair work. You'll make a mint. Also since the lids flip back over the rear, I don't think your idea will work well. I think the lid will always be in the way.

Honestly I think your original idea works better if you simply delete the ramp. I don't really think that angled idea will work at all.

This is not my design..I drew it up per customer's request. I agree about the emanate destruction that will ensue if this design is manifested..The dumpsters they are using have no lids.

[DSW]

Originally Posted by wagin

This is not my design..I drew it up per customer's request. I agree about the emanate destruction that will ensue if this design is manifested..The dumpsters they are using have no lids.

That's why I mention getting a waiver/release signed. It seems customers always want you to do what they tell you, no matter what "problems" their ideas have, until those problems start costing them money. THEN it's your fault. You are the professional, so you are supposed to be the one who knows better... I've seen this more times than I care to count.

Good contractors know when to push for correct designs, or when to walk away. "Hacks" simply do whatever. " Not my problem, it's their design...". I've seen quite a few of these "cheap" customers come back and sue however if a bad design causes problems. You drew up the design ( even if it's what they wanted), so that leaves you holding the bag in court trying to explain yourself while they play dumb and say they trusted your professional opinion on how it should be done. Something in writing at least covers you azz that you didn't recommend the idea, but drew and built it to their specs, not yours. At least you can show that you didn't recommend this up front at a later time.

I see them coming after you after the 1st one or two times the trash guys wreck this, or someone fall in or gets hurt. Just cover your azz in writing.

[wagin]

The masses agreed on the latest design..Unbelivelable! I agreed to produce with local permits and a PE stamped print. I convinced the customer to separate the dumpster cradle from the platform. design is to have 6 ballards set in front of platform and cradle attached.

[DSW]

PE stamped print is a good call. Removes all the design issues from your end. If something doesn't work, blame the engineer!