My first production job.....some questions....

[turbo38t]

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Ok guys/girls. I am making a specially designed battering ram (around 35 lbs) for a friend's company. Anywyas, I have the oppurtunity to build the first 100 and more if all goes well. Anyways, I have a couple questions and I figured what better place to ask then a welding forum. I already asked part of the question but I will rephrase. I am making two handles for each unit out of 3/4" black pipe. I need the most efficient way to make them to save time but be presentable. The handle is 4" between pipes inside and it is a U-shape which straddles a piece of 4" box tube. I have tried making the two 90 degree bends by doing two 45s per joint(and a bit of grinding to smooth them up, the same joint welding downhand for a nice flat profile and I have tried welding the end of the handle to the ends of the side pieces of pipe and inserting a plastic cap in each open end of pipe. I am considering trying weldable 90 fittings also. The 45s take a bit of time to get nice. The weldable fittings cost like $/each. Open to other ideas but the handle has to be the diameter of black pipe and relatively the same weight(solid is too much) and graspable on all sides. I am looking for ideas, different designs etc. Second question is, there is a second head that is a cast steel alloy that has to be welded to the end of the 3/16" tube. The head is 1" thick and has a piece formed into it that slides 1/4" into the end of the tube. They recommend 9018M rods. Preheat/postheat etc. The unit will see a bit of impact as there is a strike point near the head where you could hit it with another unit to pry open a door frame. Would 1/8" or 5/32" rod be recommended or is there a MIG wire I could use that would be equivelent? Thanks. Dave

[weldgault]

Dave, there is a mig wire that is the same chemestry. LWS should have in stock or can order it for you. John G

[turbo38t]

Thanks alot. Do you think it would be something like er90s6 or something? Dave

[tapwelder]

Sounds like you are going to get bogged in prep and cleaning.

What about solid bar. It would be easy to bend in a custom bending jig.

what is the OD of 3/4" black pipe. You could probably go with 3/4" solid.

When I get really large jobs, I look at out-sourcing some portion of the job.

It might be beneficial if somebody else does all the cutting and you just fabricate. My supplier is very reasonable on cutting. 1000 cut pieces is about 10 10minutes work for them.

[turbo38t]

Has to be the same diameter and weight so solid wouldn't work. I am making the first 100 units or so my way. Getting $140 a piece so once I make a sound original I'll just spend a night or two cutting parts and then the rest putting them together in a simple fixture on my welding table. Dave

[weldgault]

Originally Posted by turbo38t

Thanks alot. Do you think it would be something like er90s6 or something? Dave

It is ER90S-B3. John

[turbo38t]

Originally Posted by weldgault

It is ER90S-B3. John

The head is 1" thick and welding it to 3/16" box tube. The head/end of tube is gonna have a bit of pounding on it with another thirty pound ram. What do you think I should do as far as pre/post heating? It is a cast alloy steel and the tube is just a500....Dave

[TubularFab]

Is the handle a part that could be bent from a continuous length of pipe? I might know of someone you could work with on doing it that way... Sure would save a lot of hassle and grinding.

[turbo38t]

Originally Posted by TubularFab

Is the handle a part that could be bent from a continuous length of pipe? I might know of someone you could work with on doing it that way... Sure would save a lot of hassle and grinding.

Yes it could be, but it would have to be tight bends. Thanks. My email is turbo38t@gmail.com Dave

[TubularFab]

Dave - can you do a sketch and post it of what the pipes would need to look like with some measurements? Then I could tell you whether or not mandrel bending it would work. With mandrel tooling it's not too hard to bend on a 1 x the tube diameter centerline radius.

[Rojodiablo]

Originally Posted by turbo38t

Yes it could be, but it would have to be tight bends. Thanks. My email is turbo38t@gmail.com Dave

Where are you located??? I can tell you, you can do bends like that all day long with a JD squared or Pro tools bender. They have dies in pipe and tube diameter, and it is so simple stupid, its' not funny. Find a fab shop near you to bend them for you, in bulk if you can't afford the bender. But.....$400 for the bender, and another $250 for the die, and you are good to go making about 10 zillion bends on that size pipe or tube. Or, there are several guys here on the board you can contact to do those bends for you. Some examples- Tubular fab, KB fab, ZTFab, can all do them. I can, too. But send it to them first- I am pretty swamped.

[turboblown]

For production, go with one piece.
If you have to prep, assemble, weld and finish a bunch of pieces, the $140 per unit that you make will catch up to you really soon in the wasted labor of assembly.

I vote for mandrel bent tubing for production. Try to find somebody with the equipment that will make the bends for "beer money."

[turbo38t]

Originally Posted by turboblown

For production, go with one piece.
If you have to prep, assemble, weld and finish a bunch of pieces, the $140 per unit that you make will catch up to you really soon in the wasted labor of assembly.

I vote for mandrel bent tubing for production. Try to find somebody with the equipment that will make the bends for "beer money."

Thanks for the replies guys! I will try to make a quick sketch up this evening. Dave

[tapwelder]

Would a muffler shop be able to help.

When you finish welding you want your product to be as clean a possible. Cleaning is often the most over looked aspect in fabrication, at least by weldors. It often takes more time than welding.

I don't know what you do. However, if you have other things going on, then it wouldn't be wise to be tied to one product longer than necessary, when you could be working on other stuff.

Good luck

[turboblown]

A sandblast cabinet would also be nice for cleanup.

[turbo38t]

Originally Posted by tapwelder

Would a muffler shop be able to help.

When you finish welding you want your product to be as clean a possible. Cleaning is often the most over looked aspect in fabrication, at least by weldors. It often takes more time than welding.

I don't know what you do. However, if you have other things going on, then it wouldn't be wise to be tied to one product longer than necessary, when you could be working on other stuff.

Good luck

It's a side gig for now. But could be fulltime. Just want to be productive with it. The thing with the handles is it cannot be a tru "U" shape. It has to have a flat area where you grab, hence the tight bends. Can pipe be bent tht tight?

[turboblown]

If this is a battering ram as used in law enforcement to take doors down, the handles of the commercially built rams that we see are tubular "elongated U" shaped and not flat anywhere on the handle. They are very basic devices made out of only five total parts. Some of them have a sixth and seventh item- an internal blcokoff plate and lead shot (or sand) to fill about 80% of the internal void that this blockoff plate creates to give you a deadblow hammer effect. some of the bigger ones are about two feet longer and have an extra pair of handles.

I've lifted enough of these things out of DEA & FBI vehicles, I hate seeing them. After you get one built, try it on your front door and let us know how it works!

[TubularFab]

Yes, pipe can be bent very tight. But, a JD2 bender is not going to be the tool to do it. Post a sketch or drawing of what you want and I'll be able to tell you what it would take to get them done.

[Rojodiablo]

Originally Posted by TubularFab

Yes, pipe can be bent very tight. But, a JD2 bender is not going to be the tool to do it. Post a sketch or drawing of what you want and I'll be able to tell you what it would take to get them done.

It may be able to be done on a JD squared. I have a 1"x3.5 radius die, and that thing is a pretty tight bend. It was in fact too tight for some of my projects, and I had to get a 4.5 radius. But I agree, without a drawing or good pics with a tape measure on it, it's all a guessing game.

[turbo38t]

Ok, it kinda looks like this......not the best computer artist LOL. Bit the diagnal lines are 45s I've been cutting and welding together to make a 90. I would need to replace that joint with a bend to make one solid piece so all I would have to do is weld the handle in place. It is 4" inside the handle and approximately 6 1/16" outside(3/4" pipe). I need the top of the handle(top part in pic) to have a flat surface similar to what is there. I can alter some things but not the design of certain areas. They still want a flat area up there. So using most cheaper benders I would end up getting more of a U shape. Dave

[Rojodiablo]

Originally Posted by turbo38t

Ok, it kinda looks like this......not the best computer artist LOL. Bit the diagnal lines are 45s I've been cutting and welding together to make a 90. I would need to replace that joint with a bend to make one solid piece so all I would have to do is weld the handle in place. It is 4" inside the handle and approximately 6 1/16" outside(3/4" pipe). I need the top of the handle(top part in pic) to have a flat surface similar to what is there. I can alter some things but not the design of certain areas. They still want a flat area up there. So using most cheaper benders I would end up getting more of a U shape. Dave

Well, if you don't mind a weld in it, you can make 2 sides, with a seam in the middle/ off to one side of the handle area. 1"x.120 wall is the closest thing to black pipe 3/4" . I
'll see if tomorrow I can duplicate that bend with my die for you in 1 piece. Another option, the really easy one.....2 straight tubes, and tube notch to hold the straight handle piece. Or, the ugly way....weld in a couple of pipe 90's!!!!!

[turbo38t]

Originally Posted by Rojodiablo

Well, if you don't mind a weld in it, you can make 2 sides, with a seam in the middle/ off to one side of the handle area. 1"x.120 wall is the closest thing to black pipe 3/4" . I
'll see if tomorrow I can duplicate that bend with my die for you in 1 piece. Another option, the really easy one.....2 straight tubes, and tube notch to hold the straight handle piece. Or, the ugly way....weld in a couple of pipe 90's!!!!!

I'd appreciate looking into the bend. I thought about the pipe 90s but they look very unproffessional. What do you mean by one seam? Do you have a pic? Thanks. Dave

[TubularFab]

If I were making that part I'd consider 2 ways to make it.

1. Mandrel bend it with true mandrel tooling on a 1.25 to 1.5" centerline radius. In tooling for my bender it looks like I'd have a 1.125" OD x 1.43" centerline radius die as the closest. My 1" die is on a 4" centerline radius, so that wouldn't work. The next closest option is .875" OD on a 2" clr. If 1.125" OD tube would be acceptable that would be my first choice for it.

2. I'd also consider a simple "break" bend. In other words a full blown kinked bend. I'm not sure if that would be acceptable for your application, but it is commonly done on very similar type handles.

Either way it would probably be better to move to an ERW tubing for better ductility and welding. I doubt there would be much difference in material cost unless you already have a bunch of the pipe. I can't imagine trying to do it with miters and welds or evel weld el's. The weld and grind time would really eat into your profit.

[TubularFab]

Here is an example of a possibility with the 1.125" OD x 1.43 clr bend die I mentioned. This particular die requires 2" of straight between bends, so there is plenty of room on this part for that. Of course the middle straight could be stretched if you wanted a true 4" between bend tangents.


I have no idea where you are located, but there may be someone in your area that can do this type of mandrel bending. Actually, with that diameter and wall thickness you wouldn't need an inside mandrel or wiper, but it still needs to be done on a mandrel bending machine. It could also be shipped if there is noone near you.

Jason

[turbo38t]

Originally Posted by TubularFab

Here is an example of a possibility with the 1.125" OD x 1.43 clr bend die I mentioned. This particular die requires 2" of straight between bends, so there is plenty of room on this part for that. Of course the middle straight could be stretched if you wanted a true 4" between bend tangents.


I have no idea where you are located, but there may be someone in your area that can do this type of mandrel bending. Actually, with that diameter and wall thickness you wouldn't need an inside mandrel or wiper, but it still needs to be done on a mandrel bending machine. It could also be shipped if there is noone near you.

Jason

Hey, could you let me know what you would charge for a one off handle so I can try it out? I'd like to see if it will work. How much time is involved and do most metal shops have this type of bender? I am in NJ so include shipping in you estimate. It would be requiring in the area of 38" of pipe for one handle I believe. Dave turbo38t@gmail.com