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#1
11-29-2008, 07:22 PM
 WS6HUMMER WeldingWeb Journeyman Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Alexandria La. Posts: 77
Electro magnetic induction & TIG question.

I know anytime you send current down a copper wire there is a chance of electro magnetic induction if your welding on something with electronics. I have tried to dissconnect everything on my car any time I weld on it but I was wondering if a TIG torch would have a lesser chance of actually damaging any electronic devices since the arc is constant and not constantly going on & off like it would with Stick or MIG?
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#2
11-29-2008, 07:59 PM
 whitehendrix! WeldingWeb Tradesman Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: in a dream world Posts: 276
Re: Electro magnetic induction & TIG question.

i don't leave any thing to chance.. you're still introducing a voltage thats higher than 14.4V regardless of the process.. whether it's pulsed DC in a negative or positive polarity, AC, or straight DC.. and OCV is drastically higher than what the breakdown threshhold is for the electronics.

i disconnect the ECU and battery every time.. alot of guys will just disconnect the battery.. some cars don't mind it, some do.. on bikes, i unplug the ECU/CDI every time tho..

"I know anytime you send current down a copper wire there is a chance of electro magnetic induction".. theres no "chance" sir!! it's EVERY single time.. theres a magnetic field around every electron, let alone that when you flow 1 A per second, it equals 1 coulomb, which equals 6.24x10^18 electrons!!!... to put that into persepctive, thats 18 zeros behind that "6.24" ...and also 1 amp-hour is 3600 coulombs..

all in all, that an assload of electons flowing when you beigin an arc at 150 amps or so..

thus the reason i don't every chance it.. even on my own stuff. .lol

good luck and have fun bro!!
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Last edited by whitehendrix!; 11-29-2008 at 08:02 PM.
#3
11-29-2008, 08:05 PM
 tresi WeldingWeb Artisan Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Cassville, Missouri Posts: 2,116
Re: Electro magnetic induction & TIG question.

Ever TIG weld in a room that had florescent lights wire with romex instead of wire in steel conduit? Won't happen in every such room but the high freq of tig can make the lights go crazy. The high freq can radiate in all direction like radio waves.
You could go with lift arc or scratch start but I don't see that being much different than DC stick. Ever run 7018 on DC+? It's runs smooth as butter. With stick or mig all the power is going to be confined to the most direct path between the ground and arc.
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#4
11-29-2008, 09:54 PM
 WS6HUMMER WeldingWeb Journeyman Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Alexandria La. Posts: 77
Re: Electro magnetic induction & TIG question.

Thanks for the input, I always disconnect the ecu,wiedband, 2step,& injector driver (im pretty paranoid). I just wasnt sure if the TIG process was any bettter for that.
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#5
11-29-2008, 10:14 PM
 whitehendrix! WeldingWeb Tradesman Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: in a dream world Posts: 276
Re: Electro magnetic induction & TIG question.

i mean, i would assume no.. lol.. current flow is current flow.. i do like tresi's thought on EMI however.. i had not taken that into consideration.. thats just my personal opinion tho, bro..

the amount of current induced by RF and EMI should be microamps at best., unless the electronics (ECU) are RIGHT beside the transformer core or VERY close to the arc.. an arc will make pretty much just radio noise, and trasmit AM and FM pulses on a very wide frequency range.

the electromagnetic pulses from coil saturation and field collaps should be pretty low.. i'm wondering about the ballast thing tresi mentioned now!! lol.. wonder if a magnetic ballast would differ from anelectronic one.. i would assume the electronic ones are more prone to disturbance..

anyway.. ya, WS.. you're golden, brother!! you're good unplugging everything, ut i almost would say theres no difference as far as welding modes and all is concerned.. (but hey.. i could be wrong..)
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#6
11-29-2008, 10:15 PM
 tresi WeldingWeb Artisan Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Cassville, Missouri Posts: 2,116
Re: Electro magnetic induction & TIG question.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by WS6HUMMER Thanks for the input, I always disconnect the ecu,wiedband, 2step,& injector driver (im pretty paranoid). I just wasnt sure if the TIG process was any bettter for that.
Just for general purpose I'll disconnect both sides of the battery and never had a problem.
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#7
11-29-2008, 10:29 PM
 whitehendrix! WeldingWeb Tradesman Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: in a dream world Posts: 276
Re: Electro magnetic induction & TIG question.

just out of curiosity, whats this on?
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#8
11-29-2008, 10:48 PM
 tresi WeldingWeb Artisan Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Cassville, Missouri Posts: 2,116
Re: Electro magnetic induction & TIG question.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by whitehendrix! i mean, i would assume no.. lol.. current flow is current flow.. i do like tresi's thought on EMI however.. i had not taken that into consideration.. thats just my personal opinion tho, bro.. the amount of current induced by RF and EMI should be microamps at best., unless the electronics (ECU) are RIGHT beside the transformer core or VERY close to the arc.. an arc will make pretty much just radio noise, and trasmit AM and FM pulses on a very wide frequency range. the electromagnetic pulses from coil saturation and field collaps should be pretty low.. i'm wondering about the ballast thing tresi mentioned now!! lol.. wonder if a magnetic ballast would differ from anelectronic one.. i would assume the electronic ones are more prone to disturbance.. anyway.. ya, WS.. you're golden, brother!! you're good unplugging everything, ut i almost would say theres no difference as far as welding modes and all is concerned.. (but hey.. i could be wrong..)
As for the different ballast I really don't know. It was in the late 80's the only time I seen it 1st hand. Actually the garage in seen it in still had a mix of knob and tube and romex wiring for the lights. Upgraded to EMT and thnn wire and the problem went away.
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#9
11-29-2008, 10:55 PM
 whitehendrix! WeldingWeb Tradesman Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: in a dream world Posts: 276
Re: Electro magnetic induction & TIG question.

Ooo.. knob and tube is scary.. lol.. BUT, its acutally one of the best wiring methods, believe it or not.

DEFINITELY magnetic ballasts.. i've done enough lighting repair and installation to certainly promise that.

ya.. emt is amazing stuff.. it's grounded, therefore becomes a shield as well. good stuff.

that is interesting tho,.. i never considered that, and now, i'll keep that in mind should i have to do wiring in a fabrication-type area.

by code, all commercial stuff HAS to be wither MC or in conduit.. so, unless its residential, halfassed commercial, ir PVC conduit, EMI shouldn't be too much of an issue..

thank you tho for that post.. very good to think on..
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#10
11-29-2008, 11:19 PM
 dave powelson WeldingWeb Craftsman Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Yuba City, CA Posts: 1,419
Re: Electro magnetic induction & TIG question.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by WS6HUMMER I know anytime you send current down a copper wire there is a chance of electro magnetic induction if your welding on something with electronics. I have tried to dissconnect everything on my car any time I weld on it but I was wondering if a TIG torch would have a lesser chance of actually damaging any electronic devices since the arc is constant and not constantly going on & off like it would with Stick or MIG?
Gee, all this technical discussion......and nobody talks about just where and how the ground
is connected to help eliminate EM damage.

The size of the EM field is limited by having a really good ground connection, very close to the weld area.

Disconnecting the battery, sure. I used to screw around disconnecting the ECM, but don't anymore.
Making certain that this EM field created does not have any sensors, cabling, or wiring within it it, is most helpful.
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#11
11-30-2008, 12:19 AM
 dave powelson WeldingWeb Craftsman Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Yuba City, CA Posts: 1,419

The high frequency start and/or run, of TIG is an RF field.
Consider that the HF start, can jump a spark in air, maybe a good inch, so
it's not any more 'vehicle friendly' that MIG, etc.
Once again, close, really good, low resistance grounding stops problems.
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#12
11-30-2008, 09:04 AM
 WS6HUMMER WeldingWeb Journeyman Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Alexandria La. Posts: 77
Re: Electro magnetic induction & TIG question.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by whitehendrix! just out of curiosity, whats this on?
http://www.theturboforums.com/smf/in...topic=116381.0
LS1 F body
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#13
11-30-2008, 09:07 AM
 WS6HUMMER WeldingWeb Journeyman Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Alexandria La. Posts: 77
Re: addendum to my previous post

Quote:
 Originally Posted by dave powelson The high frequency start and/or run, of TIG is an RF field. Consider that the HF start, can jump a spark in air, maybe a good inch, so it's not any more 'vehicle friendly' that MIG, etc. Once again, close, really good, low resistance grounding stops problems.
Thanks for the help & putting it in Lay terms so I could understand lol.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by dave powelson Gee, all this technical discussion......and nobody talks about just where and how the ground is connected to help eliminate EM damage. The size of the EM field is limited by having a really good ground connection, very close to the weld area. Disconnecting the battery, sure. I used to screw around disconnecting the ECM, but don't anymore. Making certain that this EM field created does not have any sensors, cabling, or wiring within it it, is most helpful.
Thanks also.
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