Attempt to Reclaim 7018 Weld Results

[duaneb55]

For anyone who may have followed the "7018 Rod Oven" thread http://weldingweb.com/showthread.php?t=25899 and cares to see the real results of attempting to reclaim 7018 rod that belongs in the scrap bin here's a few photos following David R's suggestion to break the test welds apart which I did this afternoon.

I'm not going to copy them here so you'll have to go to the other thread to read them but the photos to follow show the characteristics that MoodRise posted and I confirmed in posts #46 and #47 in the original "7018 Rod Oven" thread. The photos don't show as well as in person but the porosity is very evident throughout the weld and particularly in the original tack.

I'll post the 4-3/4" forbidden vertical down photos in this first post and then the 3" horizontal in a second so stand by for the second post.

The original vertical down weld from the "7018 Rod Oven" thread


It took several wacks with the 10# Up and Down wrench (previously listed as only 8#) to get the weld to yield and the first pieces to lay flat.


Front side after pounding the two pieces flat.


Breaking the weld.


You can see the narrow weld deposit result of a vertical down. Weld porosity is there but not clear in the photo.


Stand by for post #2.

[duaneb55]

Post #2 showing the horizontal weld.

Again, the original weld from the "7018 Rod Oven" post.


Beginning the break.


Continuing the break.


The break complete. Again, it's not very clear in the photos but some porosity spans the entire width of the weld with porosity in some areas quite severe as in the original tack. Although the 3" horizontal weld fill was considerably wider than the vertical down, it pulled apart with what I would consider minimal effort with a 10" adjustable wrench. Certainly less than I would have expected.


So now I know first hand the futility of attempting to reclaim 7018 rod and the resulting welds if used and as such I'm going to consider this a good test and deposit the rod where it belongs.

[Engloid]

Why are you welding downhill with a 7018?

[lugweld]

Now,
Do one with fresh rods. It may be a problem with the weldor?

[Craig in Denver]

Originally Posted by Engloid

Why are you welding downhill with a 7018?

Originally Posted by lugweld

Now,
Do one with fresh rods. It may be a problem with the weldor?

Duane:
Looks like a tough crowd tonight.

[David R]

If you forget the porosity, and look at the vertical down weld, it didn't get into the base metal much Eh?

What happened to the piece that had the V up and V down on the same set of cupons? That is the one I want to see destroyed.

Nice demo and I appreciate your time.

Maybe we can all learn.

Those welds were outside corners. If you did a fillet (T), it would be harder to break.

Thanks Duane
David <~~~ Insert big cheesy grin here.

[duaneb55]

Originally Posted by Engloid

Why are you welding downhill with a 7018?

As was brought out in the referenced original post, being a hobby weldor I wasn't aware that the 'all position' rating of 7018 didn't mean vertical down. Thanks to the posts explaining why from several members that did know, now I do too.

Originally Posted by lugweld

Now,
Do one with fresh rods. It may be a problem with the weldor?

You very well could be right lugweld.

Originally Posted by Craig in Denver

Duane:
Looks like a tough crowd tonight.

No problem Craig. Those weren't too bad and my skin's a little thicker than that anyhow.

[lugweld]

I really wasn't trying to impune. But true to the scientific process, you must have a control before you can form an evaluation of problem of porosity and blame it on the reclaimed 7018 rods. To establish a control, fresh hot rods should be used the way they are prescribed to obtain a bench mark for comparison. Any porosity obtained could be for a variety of factors: contaminated steel, wind blowing, or operator error. While exact conditions are not possible to replicate, it would be nice to see if the welds from a new box of rods held up to scrutiny before we can blame the reclaimed rods.
.

[duaneb55]

Originally Posted by David R

If you forget the porosity, and look at the vertical down weld, it didn't get into the base metal much Eh?

Nope. Not much at all which is why I wanted to show it.

Originally Posted by David R

What happened to the piece that had the V up and V down on the same set of cupons? That is the one I want to see destroyed.

That's right! I forgot that's the one you wanted me to break. I even looked at it but... well, I wanted to get started on fixing that lawn mower engine throttle bracket so I tossed it in the scrap pile. I'll get it back out and break that one too and post some shots but my guess is we'll see the same thing.

I didn't plan on doing anything more with that bunch of rod except toss it out but if you want to see a couple fillets with it I can run some.

Thanks for the kind words.

[Craig in Denver]

Originally Posted by David R

If you forget the porosity.........

Isn't that like saying "If you forget the divorce"......?

Originally Posted by David R

Nice demo and I appreciate your time.

Cwap........me too.

Originally Posted by David R

Maybe we can all learn.

BUT.........Duane lives in Texus........

Originally Posted by David R

Thanks Duane
David <~~~ Insert big cheesy grin here.

Ok, fine; me too. Thanks Duane <~~~Insert big cheesy grin here. There are at least two welding worlds, one is someone looking over your shoulder with a WPS. Another is my home garage. Duane's testing is invaluable.

[Engloid]

BTW, I've done a lot of xray welds that weren't considered to be "fresh" by ASME codes. Moreso now than in the past, all jobs didn't have any sort of rod ovens.

[duaneb55]

Originally Posted by lugweld

I really wasn't trying to impune. But true to the scientific process, you must have a control before you can form an evaluation of problem of porosity and blame it on the reclaimed 7018 rods. To establish a control, fresh hot rods should be used the way they are prescribed to obtain a bench mark for comparison. Any porosity obtained could be for a variety of factors: contaminated steel, wind blowing, or operator error. While exact conditions are not possible to replicate, it would be nice to see if the welds from a new box of rods held up to scrutiny before we can blame the reclaimed rods.
.

lugweld, I understand completely what you're saying but you really need to read the original post if you haven't already. The subject rod belongs in the dumpster! The characteristics that MoonRise posted there were spot on in that the flux ran off like a garden hose was running while welding and chipped off like concrete. The test pieces were ground smooth and clean back at least 1/2" from the joints.

Now that being said, I am in no way a professional weldor but some of the stick welding I've done in the past was back in the early '80s when I fabricated tandem hitches on approximately 30 lead trailers for doubles that were stick welded and included vertical, horizontal and overhead welds. The hitches were inspected and pasted by the NYS Thruway Authority and were used to run up and down the highway until the trailers were retired years later.

Today I am out of practice as I believe I stated in the original thread up until the other day I haven't stick welded in 12-15 years and I know I couldn't pass a cert test but I don't think I'm that bad so I'll get some fresh stuff to make the comparison for myself and all and post the results.

[denrep]

Originally Posted by duaneb55

...So now I know first hand the futility of attempting to reclaim 7018 rod and the resulting welds if used and as such I'm going to consider this a good test and deposit the rod where it belongs.

Before we condemn reconditioning, we have to be sure that target temperature, time, and air flow were reached during the cook out.

Originally Posted by duaneb55

The subject rod belongs in the dumpster!

I'll admit; when I saw the posted picture of 7018 that someone threw in the junk I felt sorta sick. I was glad to read later that the junk man picked the box of rod out and put it in his truck's cab. Hope he uses it all!

Granted not all old rods can be saved, but they deserves a fair chance.
And even the duds are still good for piercing.

Thanks for posting the test.

[duaneb55]

Originally Posted by denrep

Before we condemn reconditioning, we have to be sure that target temperature, time, and air flow were reached during the cook out.

Good point denrep. I should have said "this bunch of 7018 rod" and didn't mean to condem all rod reconditioning. As I pointed out in the rod oven thread, the rod in question sat outside on the ground (not in a box either) for weeks before I brought it home. If I recall the weather correctly, it never got rained on but it was in direct contact with the ground so...

[tanglediver]

* If I were being tested with old rod and vertical down, in the plate prep I would consider that most importantly the "inside edge" of the joint must be clean and the back side adjacent to the joint needs to be clean. And even then, the open root will allow impurities to be included, so...open root might need to be back gouged to remove impurities, then rewelded.
* The old rod and anything downhill, by all means, had everything to do with it. A failure in practice, to avoid a failure when it counts!
* But it depends on the initial rod quality and where it was stored, I had a good rod that was tacked to a 1/2" flat washer in a pencil holder on my desk for ten years (I know, I am a weird clutterbug) before i got an urge to snap the washer off and burn it...it was poetry in motion! Just gorgeous!! It was a 7018 rod, Hobart I think.
Thanks Duane!

[Engloid]

Provided the flux hasn't physically broken down, they can be baked out again. We have even rebaked them for nuclear plants. I believe they called for 4 hours at 550 degrees, but I can't remember exactly.

[duaneb55]

Originally Posted by tanglediver

* If I were being tested with old rod and vertical down, in the plate prep I would consider that most importantly the "inside edge" of the joint must be clean and the back side adjacent to the joint needs to be clean. And even then, the open root will allow impurities to be included, so...open root might need to be back gouged to remove impurities, then rewelded.
* The old rod and anything downhill, by all means, had everything to do with it. A failure in practice, to avoid a failure when it counts!
* But it depends on the initial rod quality and where it was stored, I had a good rod that was tacked to a 1/2" flat washer in a pencil holder on my desk for ten years (I know, I am a weird clutterbug) before i got an urge to snap the washer off and burn it...it was poetry in motion! Just gorgeous!! It was a 7018 rod, Hobart I think.
Thanks Duane!

I didn't go back and look but I don't think I ever posted a shot of the pre-welded joint but only described it. Here's a photo of the prep that was ground clean a minimum 1/2" on both sides and the full edge as previously described to eliminate any signs of rust and pits.

This was the start of the test piece David R wants to see busted apart.

[David R]

Slag running off, Slag coming off HARD and porosity are all also signs of a long arc.

I don't know how long your arc was but I have found the above from experience.

Try it and you will see.

When running 7018, I use a lot of heat, the top end of the recommended heat for that size rod and push the rod almost into the leading edge of the puddle. I did a horizontal weld on a cell tower using 5/32 8018 @ 190 amps (max for that size) and it worked great. These were UT tested and passed. I was welding 1 1/4" thick to 1 1/2" plate V bevel 15* on the top side.

Having an arc force setting on really smooth also helps for me with dry rod.

The instructions for my Ranger 250 say set on smooth. If the Lo Hy rod is a little damp and it sticks, turn the arc force up until it doesn't stick.

Good stuff Duane

David

[Oldtimer]

This has been interesting in both threads but I won't comment about 7018 except to say I have run enough of it to know what it will do, both old and brand new.

What I want to know is why you don't give that pore ol' hammer a new handle?

[Fat Bastard]

Originally Posted by Craig in Denver

Duane:
Looks like a tough crowd tonight.

Both reasonable logical questions. Again Why?

[specter]

looks like that handle is about to break faster than those welds.

The welds certainly go to show the in experience that you can have good looking welds that would never pass a cert.

[duaneb55]

Post totally screwed up by Mod by accident. ( I hit the wrong button)

OOPs Duane.......

My apologies.....

David

[duaneb55]

Originally Posted by Fat Bastard

Both reasonable logical questions. Again Why?

Yup. Take a look at the "7018 Ron Oven" thread FB. I didn't realize at the time of the test that even though 7018 is listed as "all position" that doesn't include vertical down.

Originally Posted by specter

looks like that handle is about to break faster than those welds.

Naw - those are only minor 'flesh wounds'. There's lots of life left in that handle.

Originally Posted by specter

The welds certainly go to show the in experience that you can have good looking welds that would never pass a cert.

And exactly one of the reasons for posting them!

[duaneb55]

Originally Posted by duaneb55

Post totally screwed up by Mod by accident. ( I hit the wrong button)

OOPs Duane.......

My apologies.....

David

rofl


Makes me think you should be sayin " so solly".

[duaneb55]

OK, let's try this again - best as I can remember.

Originally Posted by David R

Slag running off, Slag coming off HARD and porosity are all also signs of a long arc.

I don't know how long your arc was but I have found the above from experience.

Try it and you will see.

I kept the arc ASAP (As Short As Possible) and don't think I could have jammed the rod in much further. When I read the MoonRise's post outlining the weld characteristics of bad 7018 that matched my experience to a tee I just chaulked it up as such.

Originally Posted by David R

When running 7018, I use a lot of heat, the top end of the recommended heat for that size rod and push the rod almost into the leading edge of the puddle. I did a horizontal weld on a cell tower using 5/32 8018 @ 190 amps (max for that size) and it worked great. These were UT tested and passed. I was welding 1 1/4" thick to 1 1/2" plate V bevel 15* on the top side.

My Miller 'cheat sheet' lists 1/8" 7018 as 110-165amps and I ran it at 125-130amps. Would you suggest running it again at the max?

Originally Posted by David R

Having an arc force setting on really smooth also helps for me with dry rod.

The instructions for my Ranger 250 say set on smooth. If the Lo Hy rod is a little damp and it sticks, turn the arc force up until it doesn't stick.

Good stuff Duane

David

OK, now that you mention it, I do recall having the 180 SD DIG set at 2 and in light of everything that has been discussed, perhaps another test is in order.