Verticle Up Welds Please Rate

[malich]

I did some vertical up welding today and was somewhat happy with the results. Below are photos of 3" vertical up welds on .083 mild steel using .030 solid wire.

I have also included a photo of the back side to show the heat.

They seem to be pretty strong and lots of heat (maybe too much) on the back side. I think I have an idea of what I was doing wrong, but I would like to hear it from some experts.

Thank you again for all you help!

Mike

[TxRedneck]

lookin pretty good, but room for improvement. try reducing heat, good luck
chris

[paul guthrie jr]

looking good!!! but as with any"practice" i would try lower voltage and the same wire speed and also same voltage lower wire speed. you'll be able to tell what is wrong (temp,wire size,etc.)it's all practice till it counts imho i would use .o23 wire for .083 tube but thats just me!

[malich]

I forgot about trying some .025 wire. Thanks for the idea; I think that will help with the heat build up.

I also think I was moving in an upward Z motion instead on an upward side to side which is what gave the bead that funny shape.

I have a new 3/8" nozzle and tapered tip ordered which should give me more visibility on the weld pool. I really did not have a good view of the puddle this time and was more or less winging it. I was only able to look down and try to spot the puddle.

Quick question… When I was welding I was using an upward side to side Z movement holding the gun straight on. Would it be better to actually twist the gun left to right instead of moving it side to side so more arc goes into the metal? Know what I mean?

Thanks again!

Mike

[Sandy]

Hey Malich,

Looks pretty good. I can see where you had that side to side thing going there. Staying with what you have there, if you could have tightened up the back and forth as far as how far up you move with each weave, more like the second pic. Like was mentioned if you got there with .030 on 080 wall you were doing pretty good to start with. While with the .030 you may want to test the extremes just so ya know the results then you can sorta work out the details. Verticle up on 080 with 030 won't be on your door chart so just as well give her heck while your there. For me that would have been a lower voltage higher wire feed setting. Higher voltages tend to help wet out the puddle, which in this case isn't necessarily what you want. You want a faster freeze.

I don't know if you've ever reloaded before but in that arena we make 'recipes' as in write down what works best. Nothing wrong with that here either. Have an extra sheet or scribble on your door if you want. For me that would have been 3.5 and 60 with my mm175 using the same wire. On the flat I would run about 4.5 and 50. Vert down maybe 4 and 55. See how it goes? Problem with low voltage and high relative wire speed is when you do burn through it's generally a good shot. Big hole!!!!! 'Course the mm175 is slightly different than some others on the settings.

When I was welding I was using an upward side to side Z movement holding the gun straight on. Would it be better to actually twist the gun left to right instead of moving it side to side so more arc goes into the metal? Know what I mean?

Dang, if you've got the control for a free hand gun movement that's great. What happens when you rock the wrist is that you get a long stck out in the center and short on the sides. Short-long-short-long and so on. Try a dry run. Actually a combination of both would be perfect. Try to keep the stick out close the same unless you really want to stretch it out to run colder. Point uphill just a wee bit.

Maybe you should be doing stick too. There are some complex moves for verticle up that I just can't do with a stick or gun. I have to have one hand restrained or supported which is really a big handicap.

Oh yeh, do try that .023. Will give you a lot more adjustment to play with.

[malich]

Thanks for the info Sandy,

I decided to go with the vertical up welds because this is going to be a sub frame I am re-welding into my drag car. I did some destructive tests on vertical down welds while on Gen power and they failed, and besides I wanted a bit larger bead on the metal. So I opted to learn vertical up welding and I actually like it a lot.

I am going to try some .025 this week and work from there. I did adjust my settings from D 5.5 (vertical down) to C 3 (vertical up) and it seems to have a nice arc and sound.

When I switch from side to side, do you recommend counting to one or two before moving? I was trying to stay on each side for 1 second and then move to get some heat on the sides. On the second weld I think I tried 2 seconds.

Thanks,
Mike

[paul guthrie jr]

i agree with SANDY, a cheat sheet is well worth all of your effort to see what the machine likes!saves a load of time and effort more less the "expense of trial and error".good luck and keep us posted

[Sandy]

I'm glad you are going for a weld that is sound rather than the easy route of pretty. No matter what the method, vert-up or down or cross ways it's gotta be solid.

When I switch from side to side, do you recommend counting to one or two before moving? I was trying to stay on each side for 1 second and then move to get some heat on the sides. On the second weld I think I tried 2 seconds.

Two sounds a little long for material that thin unles you're swinging way out there. By the time you stop and start the sweep back you have quite a bit of time at the outer limits even with a one count. One-two from center to the out, one and a half back to the center. Get back in quick. You're trying to drag the puddle from the center to the outside and leave it there.

Here's another option if you have to, if appearance is a real issue you can always do a nice sweeping wash down. In tight corners with thinner and flexing materials you don't really want a humped bead, which is usually what I tend to end up with and fight so hard. For those situations the flatter the better. In the perfect world a tiny bit of concavity would be nice. That ain't gonna happen. I think the .023 will solve a lot of that. It'll actually pile up faster than you think because you're going to have the wire speed cranked up.

Hope you're having fun. Most of the experience comes from the failures. If you run drags, you already know that.

[lotechman]

I noticed that you lose fusion on one side of your joint periodically. The side that is the top off the tee will absorb more heat than the tube that forms the leg of the tee. One way to counteract this is to hesitate just a bit longer on the piece that absorbs more heat. General shape looks good.

[malich]

Hey everyone,

I did 8 vertical up welds today on .083 mild steel using .025 solid wire, I have attached a photo of the last weld which seemed to be the best. I did stop and restart and that does not look so good, but the weld starting from right going left turned out pretty good.

I found out I needed a little more right to left movement and did a quick 1-2 count from side to side with less upward Z movement this time.

Mike

[Sandy]

Hey that looks like a little better match for you, doesn't it. How do you feel about fusion? I like the fact that it looks much tighter now, less internal and external risers. I like the looks of the bead to the left in the pic. It's a little wider and porportionately lower. That's kinda the look you're going for.

[malich]

Hey Sandy,

Actually the bead on the left I started after the first and I was moving a bit slower and thought it was kind of thick. There appears to be good fusion and lots of heat on the insides. No minor burn through this time towards the top with the smaller wire.

Personally I would like a little larger bead such as the left, but for that I feel I was moving to slow, maybe I need a tiny bit more left to right movement???

Thanks again!

[Sandy]

Personally I would like a little larger bead such as the left, but for that I feel I was moving to slow, maybe I need a tiny bit more left to right movement???

Malich, I think so. If I were laying under something trying to weld up, I'd be darn tickled to end up with something close to that bead on the left. Given the thickness (thinness) of that tubing the beads you have are basically wide enough. It would be nice if they could be a little flatter. What will flatten the bead is more of a roll to the gun at the sides. You're not really swingin the tip that much wider just pointing more directly at the side. That helps wick the metal over that way. It follows the heat. Lot more wrist action not really much more tip travel. If I were doing a three inch up on that thin of tubing for your application, it wouldn't bother me a bit to stop in the middle and let it cool a moment. Fusion is good, bead is deep enough and wide enough, don't blow a hole. Overlap the little valley where you stopped and finish.

[j8khansen]

hey Malich. you can also try to run a straight root pass before the second weave pass if you are looking for a heavier bead.

jake

[Sandy]

Jake,
Would you make the second pass up or down??

[j8khansen]

Hi Sandy. I would run the second pass uphill. That is how I learned and welding in industrial chemical plants we had to run all of our passes uphill. I have seen welding inspectors throw welders of jobsites because they were running downhill, but for home projects i see nothing wrong with running downhill if you can do it. If you are looking for a lot of strength i woud say definetly run uphill.

jake

[j8khansen]

Another thing, if you are able to run these welds in a horizontal position, stringers will be stronger than vertical weaves.

jake

[Sandy]

Originally Posted by j8khansen

Hi Sandy. I would run the second pass uphill. That is how I learned and welding in industrial chemical plants we had to run all of our passes uphill. I have seen welding inspectors throw welders of jobsites because they were running downhill, but for home projects i see nothing wrong with running downhill if you can do it. If you are looking for a lot of strength i woud say definetly run uphill.

jake

Thanks jake, just what I wanted to know. I usually plan all around the welds so I can keep the out of position stuff minimal. But on occassion stuff comes up where there is no choice. So I try to not run away from the tuff ones and take the home repair just like it comes.

[Lanmanb4]

QUOTE : I'm glad you are going for a weld that is sound rather than the easy route of pretty. No matter what the method, vert-up or down or cross ways it's gotta be solid.

That makes a lot of sense to this beginner as well ..

And to relate it back to reloading / shootin ..
I chamber my own barrels and there is as many opinions on
whats the best way to set up and ream as there is calibers ..
BUT... the bottom line is still the same .. how does it shoot
on paper ..

I tried an vertical pass uphill on a flat ..
I tried that upside down "U" pattern as
I worked my way up ..

Had what looked to be almost full
penetration ..

after I clean it up, I'll post the pics
for some of those helpful opinions ..
as I have only been FCAW welding for
all of about 4 days LOL

I read somewhere about a "christmas tree" pattern to
weld uphill and also about the inverted U .. so I opted
with the "U" ..

Thanks for all the good info folks ..

Randy

[guy-finnigan]

i'm just gunna take a guess and say that that is S6 wire?.. if so i would put the voltage @ 19 volts and the wfs @ 175.. it worked for me but my i was using 0.35