Questions about vertical plate tests

[mattw90]

Hello I am new to the game having only been welding for a little under a year with no formal training under my belt. The only thing I know is what I have picked up from asking and watching other guys in the trade. I have been playing around with coupons trying to figure out how to properly do the vertical plate test. I believe what I am asking about is referred to as the 2g test but I'm not even sure of that. I have been using 3" wide 3/8 plate that is beveled to a 37 degree angle on one side and has a 1/8 " landing as well as an 1/8 " gap set between the plates. I begin by tacking the back side in three places top, bottom, and center. I then turn the plate over and clamp it into my bench vise in the vertical position. I run the root pass in with 1/8 " 6011 with my lincoln 305g set at 92 amps and a -2 arc control setting (a little past neutral towards the soft side). I then attempt to get a key hole and use a whipping motion to set the root. Afterwards I switch to 1/8" 7018 and turn the welder up to 94 and leave the arc control at the same setting as I used for the root. I make a hot pass followed by 2 fill passes and a cap which is ether one bead weaved up the plate or 3 stringers. I try to allow 5-10 minutes for the plate to cool as I am chipping and brushing my slag from the 7018. I generally run into trouble with the electrode sticking as I am working my way through the root pass. I am not sure if I have the amperage set to the right place or if the problem originates with my gap not being consistent due to my piss poor grinding. If you guys could give me some input on what I am doing I would appreciate it. I'm not sure If I am following the proper procedures or if my heat is set to the optimal range. I try not to grind my starts or stops because I'm not sure if it is allowed while testing. I hope I have been descriptive enough and I will try to get my hands on a digital camera to show you guys what I have been coming up with.

[DesertRider33]

2G is horizontal. 3G is vertical. In both, the plates are in a vertical position, but in 2G the plates are one above the other and the groove is accross (horizontal) and in 3G the plates are beside eachother and the groove is up and down (vertical).

Your joint prep is ok. You can make the land width a little smaller. On the grinding, you'll just have to try to make it as straight as even as you can.

On my tests, grinding during the welding was allowed, but may not be allowed in all tests so I avoided grinding.

Your amperage setting is a bit low for 1/8 7018, which may be why you're sticking the rod.

[David R]

When I took the test it was for 7018, NO 6010 or 6011. I was allowed to use a 1/4" backer and the groove was 22.5 on each side. Still 1.8" landing and gap could be what ever I wanted.

1/8" 7018 has a 100 or 110 amp minimum.

David

[mattw90]

ok thank you for your input guys I will try turning my amps up. I wasn't sticking my 7018 just the 6011 and that could have been a result of the inconsitent gap and or too large of a landing. I will going to my shop tonight and I'll see what i can do. I will try to get some pictures posted when possible

[njmm313]

hey man, check out my post I just made about this same issue. I'm welding plate as well, 1/2" 37.5 bevel (each plate, or 75 degree total), 6011 root, 7018 fill and cap.
I'm using an AC Forney Welder, and heat setting thats worked the best so far is 95 amps for the 6011 root, and 135 for the fill and cap. My plate is alittle thicker than yours though.
As far as the root, I went with the advice of the members of the board. I started out using 1/8 6011, and was sticking constantly. I downgraded to 3/32, as suggested, and what a difference it has made! Also, like stated, the 95 amps seems a little low for 1/8 7018. maybe try running in the 110-140 range and see what happens.
BTW, I went 3/32 gap for root, just used rod size for gap. It was also suggested I try to grind the face of the bevel to about the size of a nickle, and it worked out great.

[mattw90]

Thank you for your recomendations. I will give the 6011 3/32 a try. I got a chance to play with it a little more tonight and I also was able to buy a camera so heres what I got. Take it easy on me I feel like I just went 12 rounds with tyson.

The first photo is the root that I burnt in with 6011 at 94 amps. I have little to no experience with this rod and it shows.... But I will continue to work on my whipping motion and try to get something decent.

The second is the hot pass / fill I have post the cap alone

[mattw90]

Here is the cap its a little on the wide side and the weave pattern is far from proficent but Im working on it.

[njmm313]

you're getting it man! the3/32 rod will make all the dif in the world

[mattw90]

Are you allowed to run 3/32 for the root in the test booth?

[Jolly Roger]

Try running your root pass in pipe mode (it is optimized for this very thing and you will see a big difference in the way the electrode performs). The 3/32 will probably help you get it down faster and then it's an easy move to the larger electrode. I've taken many pipe and plate tests and the size of the electrode was never specified on any of them. Now that doesn't mean they are all that way it all depends on the specified procedure. We are fixing to test on 4140 square tubing in the G6 position and all that has been specified is the material, position, 5P+ root and complete with 8018. I plan on doing the whole thing with 3/32. If you can get some 5P+ give it a try on the root. Every open root test I have ever taken the root was done with it (even the one stainless test I took). You will find it goes in easier then the 6011 does.

[mattw90]

Thank you for your insight. I will buy some 5P+ as soon as I can get some money together. Tommorow night when I go to my shop I'll try running the 3/32 and work my way up from there. Hopefully I will have some decent photos to show you guys. Thanks again for the help.

[JWC]

Matt: just from my experience, once you get your key hole started just keep whipping your rod like you are driving a nail. Keep your rod tip pointed slightly upward, and push your rod into the groove. Remember you want to penetrate to the other side. You want your key hole about twice the size of your rod. If your key hole is running good dont manipulate the rod, if your key hole is closing pause for a second, if your key hole is opening up, use a rapid side to side motion to fill in the hole.

[DesertRider33]

Pics look good. Be sure to chip/brush/pick out ALL your slag between passes.

For your 6010/11 whip and pause practice, you'll find it alot more efficient to just fill up both sides of a 6x6 flat plate with bead over bead untill you get the motion down, then try it on your bevel joint.

[jamz]

Straight out of my 2nd year Welding workbook. This exact exercise.. One thing the book leaves out are the tie-ins.. Use a saw or grinder with a cutoff wheel to put a nice "boat ramp" there, its much easier to tie-in. When you are at the bottom of the "ramp", count to three, This allows you to burn into the ramp.. then proceed like you did before.

Also, fit up is VERY important.. Sure you could compensate for the high-low or crappy lands, but why make your job harder than it is?

We practice 1-4F/G welds for 4 weeks of an 8 week course. Coupons are hot/cold and face/root bent to show us weld faults (ie: flux inclusions, lack of fusion, wagon tracks)

[mattw90]

Once again thank you guys for the great info! I had a surprise visitor this weekend and had little time to go up to my shop so I didn't get the chance to burn any rod. However tomorrow night is looking really good. I will post some pictures of what I come up with. Jamz thank you for taking the time to scan those pages out of your book! If it wouldn't be to much trouble could you possible give me the contact information out of that book so that I might be able to order one. Im in serious need of a good welding manual. I fear that I have built bad habbits and I need something that I can reference to aid in the process of correcting. Also what school did you attend? I would really like to get some formal training to plug the gaps in my knowledge. If you guys have any recomendations I would love to hear them. And thanks again for being so helpful!

[mattw90]

Oh one more question. I recently went to buy some rod and I accidently picked up 7018-1. What is the difference between 7018-1 and typical 7018? The only thing I could notice is that the 7018-1 is more difficult to remove the slag as well as having a different color slag. The one thing that I could come up with is that the 7018-1 is for cold weather applications where the thicker slag holds the heat longer.

[jamz]

The pages are from my 2nd year apprenticeship booklet.. I have 2 4" binders that barely close full of booklets. Im not sure if NAIT (www.nait.ca) will sell them to non-students.

-1 Increased toughness (impact strength) for E7018 electrodes. Also increased ductility in E7024 electrodes.

[mattw90]

Originally Posted by jamz

The pages are from my 2nd year apprenticeship booklet.. I have 2 4" binders that barely close full of booklets. I'm not sure if NAIT (www.nait.ca) will sell them to non-students.

-1 Increased toughness (impact strength) for E7018 electrodes. Also increased ductility in E7024 electrodes.

Ok so what your telling me is that the -1 more or less means that the electrode is actually a stronger formula? And I feel foolish for asking this but what does ductility mean. I know I must sound like an *** but this is exactly the reason I want to go to a school. I have put in a lot of time trying to learn the fundamentals of welding. I just haven't come across anyone in northwestern PA to this point that can give me information concerning the make-up of different rods, the meaning of all the different codes put on rods and the other tech information that is essential to being a professional welder. I truly want to be a respectable professional and not just another hack. I understand that this can be obtained without schooling but I find it hard to find in-depth information on the web that isn't completely over my head. And almost impossible to get straight answer from other welders. I find more often then not that most people would rather lie then expose their own lack of exact understanding. Or they look at me as though I am a "scab" and would rather put a knife into my chest then help me get my foot into the business. For this reason I'm scared that I'm doing more damage then good when I spend hours at my shop trying to figure things out on my own. With that being said I also want to thank you guys for the great advice and knowledge! Apart from being lucky enough to spend 6 months working as a white ticket pipe fitter at the John Amos power plant in WV this website is the most comprehensive source of knowledge and help that I have found. The only thing that eclipses what I have learned from the many kind members of this site is the many hours I spent watching a 34 year journeyman by the name of Mike Nutter weld and fit. I realize just how valuable what you guys tell me is and I deeply appreciate the way you convey to me what you yourselves have had to work for. With all that being said here is another newbie question for all of you. I have been told that 7018 stands for the tensile strength of one square inch of the weld and the positions that the electrode is suitable for. So the (70) in 7018 means that one square inch has a rating of 70,000 and that (1) is a reference to the fact that is can be welded in all positions other then downhill. And if what I said to this point is correct then what does the (8) mean. Also When running numerous beads of I find it difficult to visualize how many square inches are deposited into the parent metal. So If I where using 1/8" 7018 electrodes roughly how many rods would it require to build one square inch? Could you guys give me a few examples like the break-down of E7024? I don't mean to bounce around from subject to subject like this but, in your guys opinion what is the best welding manual I would have access to purchase? I would love nothing more then to be able to stop polluting this forum with trivial question.

[DesertRider33]

Paragraphing your posts would be nice...

Electrode nomenclature, using E7018 as an example-
E = electrode
70 = 70,000 psi tensile strength
1 = all positions (flat, horizontal, vertical, overhead)
8 = low hydrogen flux composition

On the book, I have Lincoln Electric's New Lessons In Arc Welding, circa 1950's originally. Mine is a later 1970's edition I think. I have no idea if it is available anymore. I got it from an old welder who sold me a torch and some regs a long time ago and threw in the book for me. It has all the same info I learned in the welding cert classes. The manual we used in the classes was from Hobart. Some welders here on the forum talk about the Lincoln Bible (Lincoln Procedure Handbook of Arc Welding, I think is the proper name of it). I think it may be very similar to the book I have.

If you want to learn more without going to a real class, you can take online 'classes' on the Miller, Lincoln and ESAB websites. There is alot of information about all the welding processes on their sites. When I worked at my old job doing mig production welding, the company had all of welders take the Miller online mig class on the company computer. We already knew all that stuff, but it was nice to see it anyways.

http://www.millerwelds.com/resources...g-your-skills/

http://www.lincolnelectric.com/knowledge/

http://www.esabna.com/us/en/education/index.cfm

[El_Lloydeo]

set your 7018 rod at 115 amps DCEP and i bet you have a better time with it.

[El_Lloydeo]

A real good way to do that root with the 1/8" 6011.....80 amps DCEP 3/32" root opening, 3/32" root face, and bury your electrode in the root opening with no whipping. If you do it right you will have perfect burn thru on the back side.

[mattw90]

[QUOTE=DesertRider33;253503]Paragraphing your posts would be nice...

Lol sorry desert I was all hopped up on coffee last night. I'll try to be more focused in the future.

Thank you for you explanation. Its sounds like I was on the right track with the nomenclature. You might have missed the question amongst all the other crap that my last post contained but I also asked about some kind of rule of thumb as far as judging the square inches of weld I have laid down. Just looking at what a typical 1/8 7018 deposits i would guess there is 1.5 - 2 square inches of bead in a rod. I'm asking this because I constantly find myself unsure if what I just made is going to hold up to the punishment its doomed to receive. For instance I made and mounted a D-ring onto the front bumper of a 45,000 pound rig for the company I work for. Going into it I figured it would take a lot of abuse so I probably used close to ten pounds of rod just to make sure it wouldn't fail. I was sure it was an excessive amount but when when I watched a our dozer pick the front end of that truck up for the first time with the piece I made I was still a little nervous.

I found in another post you can pick up the Lincoln bible off of their website for $25. Also when I started to looking into the miller resources you provided I found a package they sell for $25 that includes information on all the different processes. Thanks for the tip.

[mattw90]

Originally Posted by El_Lloydeo

A real good way to do that root with the 1/8" 6011.....80 amps DCEP 3/32" root opening, 3/32" root face, and bury your electrode in the root opening with no whipping. If you do it right you will have perfect burn thru on the back side.

Hey thanks for the advice I'll definitely give it a try! I have been improving with the 6011 after I took someones advice and welded 2 of my crappy coupons together and just burnt rod until I covered them. Much less frustrating then destroying a set of bevels that took 1/2 hour to grind. That was starting to get to me.