alu sailboat buliding

[zeyang]

Originally Posted by oxy moron

(the OP) He's located in Beijing, China. unfortunately, the location is listed in chinese, so, that leaves the other 75% of the world unable to read it

Hehe. Easy solution, thanks to translate.google.com :_-)
Actually, there is soon more chinese webpages on internet than english so now you have a good excuse to learn chinese. hehe

zeyang

[oxy moron]

actually, thanks to the public education in Taiwan, all 6 years and 2 months of it.

[Craig in Denver]

Oxy Moron:
Yep, I laughed when I saw that. But now I know, thanks.

Zeyang:
Thanks for adding your location, I think.

[Knotbored]

I understand this site is of intrest for metal fabricators mostly, but wouldn't fiberglass be a more suitable material for a boat sent into salt water?
Years ago I looked into building a small boat using a woven matt that had fishing pole sized rods loosly woven into it lengthwise. The matt would stretch over widely spaced bulkheads forming nearly perfect contourss with few forms.

[cadmus]

Knotbored,
Nowadays Fiberglass is the most common hull material, and not just fiberglass, carbon fibers and other composites are common too. Composites (including fiberglass) are great if you are making 1 mold then going into production with many boats. They are also Lighter. They have maintenance issues even if they don’t rust, they require painting just like all boats, they develop blisters, all materials have there cons. Fiberglass allows you to have perfectly round curves (no chines) to reduce resistance. Fiberglass is MUCH lighter than steel and a little lighter than AL. But if you hit a cargo container, ice berg, rock or coral at full speed you are going to poke a hole in that fiberglass. It is very hard to make a single fiberglass boat, it has been done, but it will not be the quality of one that came out of a perfectly symmetrical mold, so if you want fiberglass you might as well buy a mass produced boat. It is done frequently with little boats. My family used to build cedar strip canoes which is really just fiberglass over wood and most open design skiffs do not come out of molds... but those are small boats.

Metal Is burly. It is a little smoother in rough water. If you hit something you have a chance at survival. And you can build a single boat without having to build a mold. AL has issues in salt water but it is comparable to the issues one has with fiberglass and FAR BATTER than steel. Stainless is nice if you are rich. Plenty of websites out there to explain the pros and cons. I will try to find some for you later.

[zeyang]

Originally Posted by Knotbored

I understand this site is of intrest for metal fabricators mostly, but wouldn't fiberglass be a more suitable material for a boat sent into salt water?
Years ago I looked into building a small boat using a woven matt that had fishing pole sized rods loosly woven into it lengthwise. The matt would stretch over widely spaced bulkheads forming nearly perfect contourss with few forms.

There must be a reason why they didnt make this in fiberglass :-)

[oxy moron]

Originally Posted by zeyang

There must be a reason why they didnt make this in fiberglass :-)

LMFAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[zeyang]

Originally Posted by cadmus

Knotbored,
Nowadays Fiberglass is the most common hull material, and not just fiberglass, carbon fibers and other composites are common too. Composites (including fiberglass) are great if you are making 1 mold then going into production with many boats. They are also Lighter. They have maintenance issues even if they don’t rust, they require painting just like all boats, they develop blisters, all materials have there cons. Fiberglass allows you to have perfectly round curves (no chines) to reduce resistance. Fiberglass is MUCH lighter than steel and a little lighter than AL. But if you hit a cargo container, ice berg, rock or coral at full speed you are going to poke a hole in that fiberglass. It is very hard to make a single fiberglass boat, it has been done, but it will not be the quality of one that came out of a perfectly symmetrical mold, so if you want fiberglass you might as well buy a mass produced boat. It is done frequently with little boats. My family used to build cedar strip canoes which is really just fiberglass over wood and most open design skiffs do not come out of molds... but those are small boats.

Metal Is burly. It is a little smoother in rough water. If you hit something you have a chance at survival. And you can build a single boat without having to build a mold. AL has issues in salt water but it is comparable to the issues one has with fiberglass and FAR BATTER than steel. Stainless is nice if you are rich. Plenty of websites out there to explain the pros and cons. I will try to find some for you later.

Many smart guys have been thinking about this before. ie tom colvin and weston farmer. (both designers of the old school) ) These old salts and are not into production boats. (weston farmer did some alu boats in the late 70th) When you are a lonely homebuilder you need to think different than serial production. Labour cost is the least expensive part.
Also look at the fishing industry, they have been using steel and alu for a long time, and they dont seems too concerned about corrosion, rust etc.

and besides, If i start to discuss fiberglass bulding on weldingweb i will be kicked out. :-)

ps: with lapstrake I also manage to avoid chines.
(see this pic)

zeyang

[cadmus]

The lapstrake has always been the classiest looking boats...
It will look sexy in AL.
And (as i said) BURLY!!!!!!!!

[rhapsody]

Hi Zeyang,
Wow, Nice Fair Hull. I want one.
I could not believe a steel hull can be that nice. Did you built it or this is the design you are building?
I would like to know more about your built.
Is bending the 8mm aluminium around the wood frame easy?
Do you need stringers and frames?
Can you get by with welding one pass on each side?
I've sent you a PM.

[zeyang]

Originally Posted by rhapsody

Hi Zeyang,
Wow, Nice Fair Hull. I want one.
I could not believe a steel hull can be that nice. Did you built it or this is the design you are building?
I would like to know more about your built.
Is bending the 8mm aluminium around the wood frame easy?
Do you need stringers and frames?
Can you get by with welding one pass on each side?
I've sent you a PM.

Hi, the picture above is not my project. Building lapstrake hull is not new. The vikings did this also. i think actually building in alu is easier than steel. its feels less stiff. where you have a lot of curvature (ie the pesky garboardplank) its smart to make it more narrow. (lets say 10-15 cm on the most narrow spot)
carrying a 20 cm x 6 meter 8mm plank is not too heavy for one man. In steel it means you need to 2 persons to carry.
if u choose an overlap between 1-2 cm there is no need for stringers. and you dont need to worry about starve horse look when you put in the frames afterwards. (lets say you put in half as many frames as in a wood boat) (every 1-1.5 meter should be ok. If you are unsure where u plan to sail (ie antarctica) , just put in one every 60 cm as the original design. They willbe used for interior fastening also.
im building the keel as box keel to simulate wooden keel. (lets say it will cost me maybe 3000 rmb/500 USD in alu more than the keel in picture above, but will look much more like a wooden boat.
(the box is also agood space for lead ingots or water cooler for engine). Im into this step now.

the design is not mine. Its Mr. Archer who draw this 100 years ago. No need to change this design. Its as perfect as I can find this kind of boats. extremely well balanced and can turn around on a dime, but never been a fast boat! If you want speed, buy a racecar!

see pic.
Isnt she a beauty? :-)

zeyang.

[rhapsody]

Her lines are beautiful. Are you building ca166 Losbåt 1905 or ca168 Losbåt 1906-08.

[zeyang]

Originally Posted by rhapsody

Her lines are beautiful. Are you building ca166 Losbåt 1905 or ca168 Losbåt 1906-08.

ca168 :-)
Drawing nr 108/109 (109 is corrected for engine installation) Actually the propellar was much bigger 100 years ago so I manage to move the engine further down and forward and still manage to have horizontal propshaft. (good for many reasons) the pink line is waterline. This will be impossible with original wooden frames.

zeyang

[rhapsody]

Thanks,
Your new engine location is a brilliant idea, I understand the benefit of keeping weights off the bow and stern of the boat; and the the level prop will increase efficiency. Being a full keel double ender, have you consider using a fair size prop? The feathering type that can set different pitch for forward and reverse will give you better stopping and reversing power when you most needed it such as turning into a short finger dock from a narrow fair way. What engine are you going to use? Are you keeping the same sail plan?

[rhapsody]

My ex-young-lady wants to know whether Zeyang means West Ocean in Chinese?

[cadmus]

Very Cool!!!!
-is that the waterline when wood or when AL? How did you alter it for the mass of AL or don't you need to?
-are you going to do junk or gaff? 1 or 2 mast?
-is the mast set on the deck or down to the keel/hull?
-Full rudder. very sea worthy and easy to fix at sea.
Thats great. I am excited for you.
Pete
(props: yeah, I hate the idea of spending tons of money on something like a prop... but if it reduces drag you are using it every second under sail, it is worth it. Motors... evil necessities now a days, although i have toyed with just having 2 huge oars. They are nice for setting anchor and scaring wildlife away)

[oxy moron]

rhapsody...
Western Ocean should be Xi-yang. Although, Zeyang could be, too. Due to lack of standard in translating chinese into english phonetically.

sorry, didnt mean to high jack the thread, just inserting little blip. now, back to the ship/boat/vessel/welding.

[zeyang]

Originally Posted by oxy moron

rhapsody...
Western Ocean should be Xi-yang. Although, Zeyang could be, too. Due to lack of standard in translating chinese into english phonetically.

sorry, didnt mean to high jack the thread, just inserting little blip. now, back to the ship/boat/vessel/welding.

actually my chinese full name is linzeyang. (in china they put last name first)
Here is the chinese version: 林择洋. I think it gives a good meaning.

What i like with the chinese tradition of naming is to put some good meaning og spirit into your given name. The myriads of characters and phonetically similarities gives you endless possibilites.

zeyang.

[zeyang]

Originally Posted by rhapsody

Thanks,
Your new engine location is a brilliant idea, I understand the benefit of keeping weights off the bow and stern of the boat; and the the level prop will increase efficiency. Being a full keel double ender, have you consider using a fair size prop? The feathering type that can set different pitch for forward and reverse will give you better stopping and reversing power when you most needed it such as turning into a short finger dock from a narrow fair way. What engine are you going to use? Are you keeping the same sail plan?

The prop will be 61 cm in diameter (thats pretty fair size) engine as in picture. The company ran out of business due to cheap asian imports in the eighties. Probably one of the best engine ever. Very popular among fishermen. Crazy heavy and 30 hp with variable pitch prop.(turn the propblades when sailing and you avoid some of the drag) You cant compare a 70 HP asian importengine with this beast. (I need lots of weight anyway so it works as ballast at same time)

regards,
林择洋

[zeyang]

ni hao list

Last pic before i go for 10 day easter holiday.
Finished the keel yesterday. Took me approx one week to finish this step. I cant understand. I used up a 25 kg of argonbootle (200 bar bootle)! I thought it would last much longer than one week. will cost me a fortune if i spend 25 kg argon a week for next one year.

I try to fake it so it looks like a wood keel ((sort of). between 15 cm wide at stem 30 cm in middle and 20 cm in stern (the make space for throughhull propshaft) tig welded on both side. 30 cm in middle of this boxkeel is pretty wide but i can stuff it full of lead so it will be usable space. (some part can also be used as watercooler for engine (instead of welding tubing on the outside)

happy easter.

regards,
林择洋

[zeyang]

ops. i meant 20 litre bottle at 200 bar. How many hours can i expect this to last when i tig weld 8 mm plates?

zeyang

[rhapsody]

Thanks for the pics.
Looking Good.
You seems to have all bases covered.
More pictures when you come back, please.

[Joker11]

How in the hell do you move something that big once you get it built?

[Weldordie]

Not trying to highjack this thread... just had the thought that some readers might be interested in perusing this sailboat build by two gals in Canada. It is an amazing piece of work.

http://www.thebigsailboatproject.com/sail1fr.htm

[MoonRise]

How long the bottle lasts depends on the flowrate.

Impressive project.

But have you thought about the applicability of the aluminum as a boat material? The specific alloy and the weld filler and the effect of welding and the HAZ on the strength of the aluminum? And aluminum's annoying (from an engineering/design standpoint) property of having a finite fatigue life, as opposed to steel which can have an infinite fatigue life?

An ocean-going sailboat is going to be exposed to some varying structural loading (wind, waves, engine vibration, etc, etc), and that means fatigue could be a concern of the structure or parts of the structure.

And no offense meant, but didn't anyone else find it funny or ironic that someone from China is lamenting "cheap asian imports in the eighties" and "You cant compare a 70 HP asian importengine with this beast"?

Yup, the Canadian gals' sailboat project (welded steel hull and welded lots of other things as well) was neat, eh. I read it a while ago. Their project was interesting, to the tune of it made me spend a lot of time reading all about it.

Joker, how do you move something big after you build it? The Canadian gals hired a crane to flip their welded steel boat hull over.

Zeyang, double check your welding and make SURE you have complete penetration welds and no craters or dimples or such. Your 'close-up' pic (pic #2 in post #45) of some welds looks a bit questionable as to the weld quality. Aluminum is not very forgiving of questionable welds or any sort of crack initiation site.