220V Mig Welders

[halbritt]

Ok folks, after the thread on the 110V welders, I'd like some advice on 220V welders. I've used the MM135 a fair bit. It's great, but it's too damned small for anything really useful.

I do mostly hobbiest type stuff and I don't have a shop, so I might be working here or there. Portability is a concern, but only as much as I can get the thing into and out of my truck. I'm a big guy, so I can lift a couple hundred pounds pretty easily.

I'm considering an MM175, but the auto feed tracking thing scares me. I haven't heard anything bad about the Lincoln 175 Plus and I understand that it doesn't had the auto-weirdness, so I'm leaning that way. I do favor continuous voltage control and I'm willing to pay a bit extra for it over a tapped welder. Alternatively, an MM200/210 would be nice if I could find one used for a decent price. I understand that it is tapped, but from user reports, that doesn't seem to matter much. I actually prefer used equipment, as the absence of "shiny and new" usually causes it to depreciate a bit without affecting functionality. I also considered Powcon 300SM off of ebay, but I'm not sure that I could secure one and a decent wire feeder cheaply without significant hassle.

Assuming that I do get a 220V welder, I am concerned about the availability of power where I'll be welding. I can run a generator, if necessary, but I also wonder about the safety of duplexing a couple of 110VAC outlets off of either leg of a breaker panel.

Any advice would be welcome.

[smithboy]

I really like the wire feeder + inverter welder option, but I have heard that inverters on generators are a problem, especially if it cuts out. I hear it tends to fry the varistors (little $) and sometimes the boards (big $). The really nice thing about the feeder is that it is really light in comparison with any wire feed welder unit, and if you have a long power cable on your welder and a long cable from your feeder to the welder and a 15 foot torch and a nice loooong ground cable, you can get places you couldnt with a stand-alone feeder. I havent explored all the alternative setups, but like I said, I really like the powcon 300 (ss/sm) plus a cc/cv feeder. If the place you are going has a dc welder, you can even leave the inverter at home. Another option that might be pretty good is a small dc generator/welder plus a feeder. Miller makes a little dc welder generator that looks like just a generator. It puts out about 185 amps (I think). That and used wire feeder would give you welding, lights and monday night football. I think I just talked myself into that!!!

[smithboy]

I just went to look at the prices of the miller welder generator combo. Over $2,000 new. Guess that would be out of the picture for most hobby weldors, and many who do it daily. So, I guess I fall back to the inverter+feeder. Maybe I looked at the prices of this welder before and just forgot. Another possibility would be a ready-welder. I have used one and liked it. It's a bit bulky for a gun, but a neat idea. I used it to do some aluminum bleecher repair for my kid's rec. department. It worked pretty good for a welder hooked to a 24v tractor. The gas solenoid appears to be pretty crude (like pinching a hose), though.

[boilerman79]

In the size machines you are looking at the Lincoln 175 plus is the way to go.If you get into some thicker steel 1/4 up to 1/2 switch over to fluxcore and turn it up all the way.you will have to multi-pass but it will weld it .when welding thicker steel with these machines ,metalprep. is everthing.clean it and grind it some .fluxcore will dig into it.Bevel it if you can.i have used the older lincoln170 with .035 fluxcore a whole lot at my uncles farm.and you can do up to 1/2 steel with it.just KNOW what you are doing.

[halbritt]

I've done 1/4" and 5/16" plate with the MM135. If I can do it with that, I doubt I'd have a problem with a 175a welder.

Smithboy, our earlier exchange in the 110V thread got me thinking about this and the Powcon. My budget is under $500-$1k so funds are definitely limited. I probably just need to get the money to make the purchase and then sit on it until something good comes along. The only problem is that I'm going to need this welder pretty soon, or I'll be welding on plate again with the MM135.

[boilerman79]

Didnt mean to imply you didnt know what you were doing,just these machines have limits and fluxcore wire helps extend them a little bit.A lot of people are down on fluxcore [dirty,smoke] but on thicker steel it will get the job done.good luck

[Sandy]

Assuming that I do get a 220V welder, I am concerned about the availability of power where I'll be welding. I can run a generator, if necessary, but I also wonder about the safety of duplexing a couple of 110VAC outlets off of either leg of a breaker panel.

For all practical puposes don't even consider it. And triple don't even consider it if it's someone elses place and juice.

There are just too many issues and unknowns.

[halbritt]

Originally Posted by Sandy

For all practical puposes don't even consider it. And triple don't even consider it if it's someone elses place and juice.

There are just too many issues and unknowns.

Ok, why? What are the issues and unknowns? Atleast give me a hint so I'll have something to do some research on.

[boilerman79]

The generator route is your best bet,although you could run it off of a dryer outlet,just make yourself a short cord with welder plug on one end and dryer plug on the other ,then you can buy a 25 ft.cord for your machine around 60$.or you can get some 8/3 wire and make your own .As far as going into someone elses electric panel and tying in to it directly ,i just wouldnt suggest it as if something went wrong it could be a mess.

[smithboy]

The $500 to $1000 is very do-able in the powcon inverter/suitcase combo. Based on my manual for the 300SM, however, in single phase you are limited to 200 amps output. I recently used the 300SS and the hobart hefty cc/cv (a 20-25 year old feeder) to weld reinforcing plates on the sides of the bucket of a john deere 2030. I am not sure what thickness the plates were, I used a scrap piece of old I-beam that might have been about a half inch thick (actually too thick for the purpose), but this setup did it in a single pass using .045 innershield and a wide weave. This was using 220 single phase. I have also used it with an old dialarc 250 with good results on thicker stuff.

The feeder is rated at about 650-700 inches per minute, but actual speeds depends on the dc voltage and the cc/cv setting. I have never gotten it to go more than about 450 ipm on the powcon in 220 single phase and I have never tried this combo on 3-phase. I am not sure how this compares with most mig units on the market right now, but, I am pleased with it, and I feel this combo is more flexible than a 200-220 amp mig welder units, which are really heavy and bulky. I am not knocking the 175 amp mig units, though. They have gotten to be more compact and lighter than in years past probably becasue of discussions like these. If mig-only or mig-mostly is your preference, I think boilerman79 is probably right. A new lincoln, miller, or hobart 175-185 would fit the bill, be as portable (or more portable than the inverter/feeder) and have a warranty. After all, it's only one thing to break and one thing to carry. But, once you get to the 200 amp range, things change. The prices go up along with the weight. From my point of view, to make a 200lb millermatic 210 portable would require a lift gate.

FYI:There are two powcon units for sale currently on ebay with no bids yet and several lincoln cc/cv suitcases. There are also millermatic 175's for sale for $675 with free shipping.

[halbritt]

Smithboy, I really appreciate your response on the Powcon. I am more and more tempted to get one and a wire feeder for a couple of reasons. It's lightweight and portable and as you mentioned, one can get into tighter spaces with just the feeder. Also, a couple of the places where I may be welding do have 3-phase power. Correct me if I'm wrong, though but if one wants to do mig-only or mig-mostly, the 300sm is the model to get? I gather that the 300st for for stick and tig and the 300ss is stick only. It'd be nice to have a beefier unit as I'd like to be able to do spray-arc with .030 wire.

As far as duplexing to 120VAC outlets, I still haven't seen any good reasoning why one shouldn't. Except that there's a potention hazard if one doesn't understand what one is doing. I've even seen a device that will do this automatically. It's a given that one could use a dryer outlet, or any other 240VAC outlet, but sometimes, that's just not convenient. I'm specifically thinking of a friend's garage that has 100A service and 120VAC outlets everywhere, but annoyingly, no 240VAC. Though if I intended to spend more than a couple of hours there welding, it might be worthwhile to put in a 240VAC outlet, which might take all of 30 minutes.

[Sandy]

Originally Posted by halbritt

Ok, why? What are the issues and unknowns? Atleast give me a hint so I'll have something to do some research on.

The main factor would have to be balance between one leg and the other, for what ever reasons. 'Course you're very aware that 230v ckts are a 120/120 and a ground. Any unbalance between one leg and the other tend to end up on that ground, however minute, in the form of trace voltages and/or currents clear up to substantial voltages and/or currents..

Unbalances in this case can occurr from one chosen leg being 12awg and the other 14awg. Maybe one is much longer than the other. Maybe one is tied down on recepticles with screw posts and the other has one or more of the back stab type connections. Back stabs are piss poor knife edge connections at best. Maybe a combimation of several of these, who knows.

If we come up with an unbalance of only .005 ohms, and you were pulling let's say 11 amps, then only about 55 milli-volts might be on the ground. But as little as 3 ohms unbalance could cause there to be 33 volts on the ground which may also be a metallic equipment case, light fixture, ground trace on a ckt board, metallic conduit, well you can think of some yourself. If the ground is truly grounded, then generally no big deal but it's still on these other things on the way back to ground. Someone touches one of these and something grounded better and there's a new partial path. Tingles... One could work out a guestimate for the currents but for discussion pruposes the concept is enough work.

So there is that as well as the investigative work involved on someone elses property. maybe you've hooked into a ckt that has something like a compressor on it that they forgot about and it kicks on while you are welding, appliances in other rooms etc, or that hokey splice they did ten years ago, on-and-on.

In the RARE event of some fault you are hooked to two breakers that are not tied together. That fault could even be due to their screwed up wiring but you will be involved in it anyway.

And one other might be modern GFCI's. Newer installations with up to date GFCI's just might give you more fits than it's worth. Modern GFCI's (120v) have comparative circuitry built in that senses the difference in current between the hot lead (black) and the nuetral (white). If there is any difference at all---click, it's off. Ground doesn't even come into play here except in logical terms. In our scenario here we would have just that. You wou be using the blacks as hot and no white or nuetral so there is instantly a big difference between the current flow on the two, one has 120 the other none---click, it's off.

SO besides the prelude to safety issues it sounds like a pain in the butt and a slight liability if you aren't very good friends.

Have fun.

[halbritt]

Sandy, thanks for that excellent treatise. I was thinking something along the lines of an unbalanced connection, but I wasn't certain how that would work. I can definitely understand how that would work and atleast now I know what to check out or avoid if I ever decide to try it. I'm thinking that something like 3 ohms would be an exceptional case.

[Sandy]

I'd say if I had to do it the first thing I'd check is my alternate path. That's the grounding/bonding back at the panel or where ever. Any unsual condition at all and these transients are going to be looking for a path. Some serious ones may already exists and I wouldn't want them cycling through my machine trying to get somewhere. Remeber you've got a circuit board in there now days. Check in the breaker box for integrity and the ground rod itself. Two foot piece of galvy pipe thumped in with a hose clamp connection that rotted in two ten years ago, that kinda stuff.

[smithboy]

I would think the best mig-mostly setup for a shop using a powcon power source is the 300sm and a compatible 14 pin feeder, not the st or ss. I have been told that the miller s-22a is a direct match, cause they are the same as the powcon feeder that was mated to the SM when they were built. I think there are some suitcase feeders that also have the 14 pin connection that allow you to just plug in (maybe with a few pin movements). Thermal Arc comes to mind. The 300sm has a built-in transformer to run a wire feeder that runs off 120v (but the transformer can be changed to run feeders with other voltages). My manual says it also has a built in contactor (I dont use it on mine). The reason I say the 14 pin would be the best is that it would save money over having a contactor in both machines...maybe. However, if they are close to the same price, most any voltage sensing cv (or cv/cc) feeder should work with the 300sm as long as it either has its own power source, can be powered by the 300sm transformer, or can use the arc voltage. You can get info on specific feeders from their manufacturer as to their compatibility or from arc products in San Fran.

The SM has arc force control for short arc and you can flip a switch and turn up the amps and get spray. Note: I can just get it to spray at max amps using 220v and .035 fluxcore after the metal gets warmed up. Using .030 should be no problem, and with 3-phase, it should be fine for even thicker wire. Like I said earlier, I just got this machine (the 300sm) a couple of weeks ago, and I paid $405 plus shipping off ebay. Based on the small amount of stuff i have used it for so far, I feel it was money well spent. But, remember that practically all my experience is with the hefty in cc and the 300ss, a much less expensive machine...that I also like.

If you live on the west coast (or nearby) shipping should be a lot less than what I paid. Most of the powcons I see for sale are from the Frisco Bay area, Arizona (coast?!) or Washington state. $450 is probably an average good price. Some go for more, some for less. Beware of the statement "the lights come on but I can't test the opperation of the unit." I think this is generally a lie. If they took the time to wire a plug and switch the voltage, they can get some wire and check if it at least sparks when they touch + to -. I know a guy that buys up non-operable ones, repairs and resells on ebay (I can put you in touch with him if you are interested). Most of the suitcases are also from that area also. Something must be going on out there.

Like I said, I have been using my old 300ss and old hobart feeder for a few years now with absolutely no trouble and lots of satisfaction. BTW, I use that same 300ss to power an 80 amp powcon plasma cutter. So it works hard most of the time it's on. The reason I went with the 300sm purchase was to get the cv option along with the ability to more easily mig some thick aluminum (I am still working on this part, need a second gun setup for aluminum. I think my current liner is mucking up my wire). I got a load of scrap aluminum channel from a bunch of computer closet tear-outs and I want to make a bunch of heavy duty light weight shelving and Tig'in all that would take months.

With all that said, you should note that I dont weld for a living anymore and mainly weld only on my own projects and my dad's heavy equipment, tractors, trucks, dozers, trailers, gates, cow bells and the like. So, weigh my opinions accordingly. But, I hope the info helps.

[halbritt]

For what it's worth, I don't have any specific plans to duplex two 120VAC receptacles to run at 240VAC, I just wanted to know if it were an option and what issues I might run into. As it stands, it seems possible with the caveats mentioned.

Smithboy, there's no need to add a disclaimer as to your experience. The merit of your comments is obvious, regardless of your experience. Fortunately, I am in the SF Bay area and I have seen a number of Powcons out here on the left coast. I also see a fair surprising amount of decent equipment come up on craigslist as well. There's a Miller CP-300 with an old feeder around here for $300. I'd snap it up in a minute if I had a dedicated shop with 3-phase. I'm going to look for a 300SM and see what I can come up with.

I've had similar experiences on ebay with regards to the "power lights come on, but I'm not sure if it works and there's no refunds" issue. I took a gamble on an ultrasonic cleaner with that kind of description. When I received it, I fired it up and did the aluminum foil test and nothing. Waited a while to see if the heater even worked, and nothing. When I took it apart, the heating element crumbled away and the piezoelectric transducers looked like they'd been in a warzone. I've never seen an element so cratered and burnt. I still need to throw it on the oscilloscope to see if the generator circuitry works. If it doesn't, I've nothing more than an expensive stainless steel tank. I don't feel bad about it. Sometimes one gambles and sometimes one loses.

[smithboy]

I have a followup question to something I said in a previous post that I am not sure is accurate. I said that I was "just able to get spray" with a flux core wire. I only occasionally use a feeder and almost always use flux core when I do. In years past, I read the description of the sound of spraying vs short arc. Quieter, no sizzle and pop, high rate of deposit and little or no spatter, right. Well, I was just looking in my old manual and spray arc is only mentioned in regard to gmaw, no flux core. Can you spray at all with fluxcore???? Or am I just imagining some of these characteristics with the wire I am using?

[halbritt]

I don't think you can get spray at all with flux core. You might have been getting something called globular transfer, but for true spray you need gas with high levels of argon like 98/2 for example. Also with spray, the wire will have a sharp point on it after you stop welding.

[smithboy]

Well, dog my cats! Like I said, most of the stuff I do with the wire feed is out of doors on heavy equipment, so flux core is practically all I have used in the past (in wire feeders). I have occasionally used some big industrial mig machines, but always with 75/25 or flux core also. I guess I'll have to go get some solid wire some new gas and give it a try, or get aluminum working right.

I got a little further in the manual, and the SM is supposed to get to spraying at about 150-160 amps with .030 wire and at about 170-180 with .035 (from memory right now, dont have it here). In three phase it will do spray with much thicker wire, even at speeds of 200+ ipm. In three phase it will also produce up to 375 amp at a reduced duty cycle (300 amps at 60%). By the way, I have noticed that pulse and spot timming are options lots of nicer shop wire feeders have these days. The 300sm DOES NOT have them. I have never used a wire feeder with pulse or spot timers or preset, but they sound like a nice set of features. Any comments on these features? Useful or just neat?

[halbritt]

Pulse is useful for spray arc at reduced current settings for better penetration and less spatter on thinner materials. I've never used it, so I can't say how useful it is. I assume that pulse is limited to the flat position like spray arc and as such, I can't foresee it being very useful to me. However, I can see how it would be useful in a production environment increasing welding efficiency (less spatter) and penetration.

Transition current is variably dependent on wire size and the percentage of argon in the gas mixture. Generally, anything with more than 15-20% CO2 won't support spray.

Being able to produce 375amps off of 3-phase with a 70Lb power supply seems pretty unbelievable to me. That is about what it weighs, correct?

[smithboy]

Yep, 375 is alot for the size. I think the welder I had shipped actually was labled by ups as being 69.5 pounds (shipped without box or cables). I have seen the 300ss that I have run off 3-phase 460v (maybe 480, not really sure) at full blast. It's pretty amazing what you can get from such a little package these days (or those days actually). With that wire feeder and the powcon 300sm on 1-phase turned up on its top setting, you can quickly burn through 1/4 inch plate with fluxcore, if you arent careful. a comparable inverter today, new would be $2000 +, but only a little lighter. Thermal arc or a miller xmt is likely the closest current alternative. On high with the feeder and flux core, the metal heats up, then the sizzle starts to sound almost like a low whistle or whurr. Runs really smooth and deep with little or no significant spatter. Smoke is not as thick either, maybe from the increased convection from the metal making air rise faster. I dont use gas on wire for much other than aluminum (really light stuff on the mm130 and only rarely). That's why I got the sm, to keep from using the mm130 for that. It can do some stuff in aluminum, but it's really inconsistant, or else I am. so, I'll have to trade for a cylinder of the higher argon mix to test. Right now I only have cylinders of pure argon and pure co2 and I think a couple of smaller cylinders of 75/25. I'll try to get some and post some pictures of some sample beads at different settings.

[halbritt]

Well, I found a PowCon 400SM on ebay, so I got it. Now I'm taking suggestions for wire feeders. If anyone knows a trick to finding a cheap one, then I'd like to know what it is. I'd like to get something with quick-change drive rolls and parts that I can find at the local welding supply. Lincoln LN-25s go for cheap-ish on ebay, most everything else I've seen is >$800 or trashed.

I'm stoked about the power supply, assuming it works. When I get it, I'm going to haul it up to a shop with 3-phase and burn through some 1/2" plate.

[LowlyOilBurner]

All this talk about 220v, 230v, ect,ect, brings some questions into mind: Say for example, i want to run a SD180. With "line compensation" Miller claims(from how i understand it) that the input for the machine is 230volts, +/-10%. I use this machine everyday at school, the breaker for the unit states: 100amps, 240volts. So, i guess my question is, can you still run it off of 220v? I got a dryer in my house, so i must have at least 220v, plus in my barn, i also have some sort of 220 or what ever type of plug. So, will this work or not? Or do i need +230volts??? 3 big-*** wires come in from the pole at the street, but, no not 3phase hence it is a residential location.

Thats another question, can you get 3phase for residential? I called the power company, and they said yes, but you need all kinds of forms and what nots to fill out for it. They asked if it was for a business, i said no, for welding equipment, they said thats ok. I dunno, i guess i'm just confused??? Whats up with 3phase? I see all kinds of numbers for that, like 208v/460v/575v. i guess its different through out the country/world.
Thanks,
Matt

[LowlyOilBurner]

I know 3phase is something like 360degrees, which are 120 electrical degrees apart, so the current never drops to zero during the cycle, where as in single phase, it drops to zero 3 times per cycle, hence 3 phase is more efficient. I imagine 3phase would cost a buttload to get run in to residential, or maybe not even possible???

[halbritt]

I'll try to be as concise as possible.

With single-phase, there's nominally 120VAC or 240VAC. There is one AC "signal" on the line that looks like a sinewave with an RMS voltage of 240 volts, or thereabouts. This can vary depending on where you are and what the local load on the power grid is, but as power distribution systems get more efficient, the actual voltage received on the wall increases. 120VAC is simply half of this sine wave relative to neutral or ground. Most residences receive 240VAC single-phase.

Three phase power is as you said. Three different phases on the same power line spaced 120degrees apart. If you were to look at each phase relative to ground on an oscilloscope, you would see three separate sine waves. What's important to remember, though is that relative to itself, each individual phase sums and the powered equipment never sees a zero voltage. This is why three-phase motors are more efficient. This is the same reason that three phase power produces smoother DC output once rectified requiring less filter capacitance. This has a significant impact on the output quality of welding power supplies that use rectifiers or SCRs.

I found a great deal on an old 3-phase power supply recently and looked into the possibility of getting 3-phase into a residence. I discovered that it could be done, but it is expensive to install and would require a significant commitment in terms of power consumption. It certainly depends on what the power company is willing to provide, but it can be worth it for machine tools and other stuff. When I get my shop setup, I'll probably just buy a big diesel generator that supplies three phase and use that for the shop.

120VAC/240VAC are just nominal supply voltages, actual voltage may vary. Equipment rated to use that might have labels that indicate 110/115/120VAC or 220/230/240VAC. With three phase, there's 208/230/480 and a bunch of other voltages. Since I haven't worked on industrial power distribution, I'm not sure how one arrives at all the various voltages. Someone with more experience in this area might chime in.