Fuel Cell

[LT1Pat]

Here's an interesting shaped tank my friend and I made for his car.

[roadkillbobb]

arent fuel cells suppose to be certified in case of a crash you dont burn alive??also any baffles in the tank to prevent sloshing?..

[LT1Pat]

Fuel cells are not usually SFI certified (SFI 28.1), whether it be store bought or home made. The only regulation that is looked for is that there needs to be a firewall between the driver and the fuel tank so a panel is going to need to be installed that separates the tank from the rest of the car. A roll over vent valve was also installed in case the car ever flips, the fuel won't pour out. There is foam inside the tank to prevent sloshing.

When you go to the track there are a few things they check, they want to see the cage certified, driveshaft loops in place, engine diaper on the car, electrical cutoff shuts engine off while the engine is running, and anything else that is obviously a serious flaw. If there is one SFI sticker the track officials care to bother looking at it would be the seat belt and window net. They don't go scavenging for the SFI stickers on the bellhousing, dampener, flexplate, etc etc because they really don't care. My tank would certify past 28.1 anyways.

Originally Posted by roadkillbobb

arent fuel cells suppose to be certified in case of a crash you dont burn alive??also any baffles in the tank to prevent sloshing?..

[viper522]

Looks like it's fit snug into the t-top storage area of a Polo Green 4th gen F-body. Very nice work.

[Road Warrior]

I see a major problem here - there's no room to walk behind the car when the garage door is down!!

The tank looks good. How fast is the car?

[mr2man]

Nice work.

[jdustu]

You did a great job on that Pat

-Josh

[bensweld]

Nice work,fuel cell looks great,were there any leaks?

[LT1Pat]

No leaks We filled it with water to check.

The car is black actually, I can see why viper552 though tit was polo green though.

Originally Posted by bensweld

Nice work,fuel cell looks great,were there any leaks?

[roadkillbobb]

Originally Posted by LT1Pat

Fuel cells are not usually SFI certified (SFI 28.1), whether it be store bought or home made. The only regulation that is looked for is that there needs to be a firewall between the driver and the fuel tank so a panel is going to need to be installed that separates the tank from the rest of the car. A roll over vent valve was also installed in case the car ever flips, the fuel won't pour out. There is foam inside the tank to prevent sloshing.

When you go to the track there are a few things they check, they want to see the cage certified, driveshaft loops in place, engine diaper on the car, electrical cutoff shuts engine off while the engine is running, and anything else that is obviously a serious flaw. If there is one SFI sticker the track officials care to bother looking at it would be the seat belt and window net. They don't go scavenging for the SFI stickers on the bellhousing, dampener, flexplate, etc etc because they really don't care. My tank would certify past 28.1 anyways.

ok I had heard fuel cells had some sort of saftey design to prevent explosion,I didnt recall what level of racing that was on,,coulda been nascar circuit..nice looking tank..

[viper522]

I've heard acetone or mineral spirits can be used to check for leaks as they're both much thinner than water.

[farmersamm]

That's a really great start to finish set of pics. I like the "human drill press"

Can you pressure test those things with air, soap, and water? It's a pain to plug the openings though.

Water is funny. It has a higher density than most fuel I think. It will not flow thru a crack that's big enough to allow gasoline thru. I don't know about alcohol or other fuels.

Same with anti freeze in a radiator. A water-antifreeze mix will leak thru a crack, where straight water won't leak thru the same crack. Wierd stuff

Beautiful job

[Boostinjdm]

That's not a human drill press....It's a gravity clamp.
I like the C-clamps holding the bench grinder on. Mine is the same way. I just can't find a good permanent spot for it.

[Fat Bastard]

[quote=LT1Pat;274467]Fuel cells are not usually SFI certified (SFI 28.1), whether it be store bought or home made. The only regulation that is looked for is that there needs to be a firewall between the driver and the fuel tank so a panel is going to need to be installed that separates the tank from the rest of the car. A roll over vent valve was also installed in case the car ever flips, the fuel won't pour out. There is foam inside the tank to prevent sloshing.

When you go to the track there are a few things they check, they want to see the cage certified, driveshaft loops in place, engine diaper on the car, electrical cutoff shuts engine off while the engine is running, and anything else that is obviously a serious flaw. If there is one SFI sticker the track officials care to bother looking at it would be the seat belt and window net. They don't go scavenging for the SFI stickers on the bellhousing, dampener, flexplate, etc etc because they really don't care. My tank would certify past 28.1 anyways.[/QUOTE]



I am the president of a sanctioning body for road racing, I have been involved in racing and or motorsports for 30 years (I started driving NASCAR in 1981). Most sanctioning bodies have some mention to fuel cell minimums as well as a specification they must be "TESTED" to.
In looking at the SFI website they list the sanctioning bodies that adhere to the SFI standards as well as the manufactures that build to the SFI standard.

The 28.1 specification is 11 pages long and lists out the many tests and material specifications that must be used. That you built a vary nice looking "TANK" I am not questioning it is in fact nice looking and your workmanship looks good as well. Should you be calling it a fuel cell? I would say not.


The foam provides so much more than "slosh" control. I am not trying to take away from your work I just think you are putting out in the ether that is the interweb some misleading information. Or information that looks on the surface to be based on assumptions and not fact. Your tank would not pass the SFI 28.1 standard in my interpretation of that specification.

[dave powelson]

Fat Bastard sez:
I am not trying to take away from your work I just think you are putting out in the ether that is the interweb some misleading information. Or information that looks on the surface to be based on assumptions and not fact. Your tank would not pass the SFI 28.1 standard in my interpretation of that specification.

My comments:

I'm not posting this to put a guy down or stir the proverbial pot--either.
There are a few things in addition to what Fat Bastard has said, that one may want to consider on tank design and construction:

1-Add a grounding tab (bonding tab/strap) for grounding the tank to the vehicle frame.

2-Does the bottom of the recessed area have large, holes to allow any raw fuel spillage to not
accumulate in it? There also appears to be open celled foam cushioning the tank in this recess.
So what happens when this foam absorbs fuel spillage from tank filling?

2-Pressure Test?
-Since the tank shell is thin (I'm guessing 14 gauge to .125 max.) and was fabbed using fusion/slight corner weld,
with no internal corner flanges, no flanged baffle(s), to add significant strength to the structure, any pressure test for leaks can:
-permanently deform the structure or rupture it in a not user-friendly way.

(Pressure testing is not only a leak check but a verification of structural integrity)

3-SFI requirements? I went to the SFI site, only to find that one has to call, buy, then receive the SFI 28.1 spec. referenced by snail mail.
?????Can Fat Bastard give us some of the highlights of this elusive spec.?

[LT1Pat]

To start off I have made quite a few tanks and none of them have yet to have any sort of problems. All held pressure when tested using air.

1.) Tabs were added later

2.) The bottom is open, no fuel would ever accumulate, that's not foam, that's rubber on the bottom and it's sound deadening. It does not absorb liquid.

And to add to Fat Bastards comment regarding SFI, most "fuel cells" you buy from summit made by RCI, Summit, etc ARE NOT SFI APPROVED. How does that make their "fuel cell" any different than mine? Their tanks are welded the same way so I don't see how you can go about how mine can't be called a fuel cell because you say it can't.

Originally Posted by dave powelson

Fat Bastard sez:
I am not trying to take away from your work I just think you are putting out in the ether that is the interweb some misleading information. Or information that looks on the surface to be based on assumptions and not fact. Your tank would not pass the SFI 28.1 standard in my interpretation of that specification.

My comments:

I'm not posting this to put a guy down or stir the proverbial pot--either.
There are a few things in addition to what Fat Bastard has said, that one may want to consider on tank design and construction:

1-Add a grounding tab (bonding tab/strap) for grounding the tank to the vehicle frame.

2-Does the bottom of the recessed area have large, holes to allow any raw fuel spillage to not
accumulate in it? There also appears to be open celled foam cushioning the tank in this recess.
So what happens when this foam absorbs fuel spillage from tank filling?

2-Pressure Test?
-Since the tank shell is thin (I'm guessing 14 gauge to .125 max.) and was fabbed using fusion/slight corner weld,
with no internal corner flanges, no flanged baffle(s), to add significant strength to the structure, any pressure test for leaks can:
-permanently deform the structure or rupture it in a not user-friendly way.

(Pressure testing is not only a leak check but a verification of structural integrity)

3-SFI requirements? I went to the SFI site, only to find that one has to call, buy, then receive the SFI 28.1 spec. referenced by snail mail.
?????Can Fat Bastard give us some of the highlights of this elusive spec.?

[zapster]

Looks good to me Pat..

If it don't leak then use it no matter what anyone types or what they think they know..
As long as it is separate and contained from the drivers compartment then you are good to go..
We have one made from a freon bottle in a S/G car that passes tech no problem..



...zap!

[Fat Bastard]

The SFI specification on fuel cells is 11 pages long and copyrighted information. I do not have permission to post it in its entirety, here. I have read it today and your fuel tank will not pass the SFI 28.1 specification.


1. Your tank is not vary rupture resistant. ( needs to pass a 7 psi hydrostatic test )
2. You would need to add reticulated foam. 70% of the volume needs to be foam.
3. You have done no testing. Fittings pullout, 5pound pointed weight dropped from 4.5 feet and material tensile
4. If the aluminum has any magnesium content is is not SFI 28.1 compliant.
5 Fuel Cells are typically made of a cross linked polymer, what you have made is a great start to a cell cover.

The tank that Zap posted is a much better solution to fuel containment. Much better design, it has some engineering behind it to withstand internal pressure buildup. (as in a portion of the container is compressed, thus increasing the internal pressure) But it (Zaps) tank fails (likely) in that all materials in contact with the fuel must have a corrosion resistant coating. (your tank fails this as well.)


So no you tank will not pass the SFI standard.

[LT1Pat]

1.) How do you know?
2.) 70%+ is filled with foam
3.) wtf?
4.) 5052 aluminum, same stuff they use in fuel cells
5.) the only thing you proved to me is that you don't know ****

Also, about your fuel resistant coating, off the shelf fuel cells don't have this either in their aluminum fuel cells.

Originally Posted by Fat Bastard

The SFI specification on fuel cells is 11 pages long and copyrighted information. I do not have permission to post it in its entirety, here. I have read it today and your fuel tank will not pass the SFI 28.1 specification.


1. Your tank is not vary rupture resistant. ( needs to pass a 7 psi hydrostatic test )
2. You would need to add reticulated foam. 70% of the volume needs to be foam.
3. You have done no testing. Fittings pullout, 5pound pointed weight dropped from 4.5 feet and material tensile
4. If the aluminum has any magnesium content is is not SFI 28.1 compliant.
5 Fuel Cells are typically made of a cross linked polymer, what you have made is a great start to a cell cover.

The tank that Zap posted is a much better solution to fuel containment. Much better design, it has some engineering behind it to withstand internal pressure buildup. (as in a portion of the container is compressed, thus increasing the internal pressure) But it (Zaps) tank fails (likely) in that all materials in contact with the fuel must have a corrosion resistant coating. (your tank fails this as well.)


So no you tank will not pass the SFI standard.

[zapster]

Originally Posted by LT1Pat

1.) How do you know?
2.) 70%+ is filled with foam
3.) wtf?
4.) 5052 aluminum, same stuff they use in fuel cells
5.) the only thing you proved to me is that you don't know ****

Also, about your fuel resistant coating, off the shelf fuel cells don't have this either in their aluminum fuel cells.

One more thing Pat..
We fabbed up the tank in '79!
And no there is no "coating"

One more bit of advice..
Don't "get them going" ^^^^^^^^

You'll never read the end of it.

...zap!

[Fat Bastard]

Originally Posted by LT1Pat

1.) How do you know?
2.) 70%+ is filled with foam
3.) wtf?
4.) 5052 aluminum, same stuff they use in fuel cells
5.) the only thing you proved to me is that you don't know ****

Also, about your fuel resistant coating, off the shelf fuel cells don't have this either in their aluminum fuel cells.

1 did you put l pounds of water pressure on this tank?
2 I did not see any thing in the post that mentioned your using foam, SORRY please excuse that.
3, 4, 5, That some one sells a thing they call a fuel cell is proof of nothing. All the information I gave comes from SFI I did not make this stuff up. That you don't wish to agree I could care less.You made a real nice looking gas tank. Good workman ship nice looking welds but is is not an SFI fuel cell no mater what **** words use use.

Go read this. http://www.nasanortheast.com/fuel_cell.html


http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public..._1999_tank.pdf


We must agree on this a fuel cell is intended to give greater protection from fuel escaping than a stock tank? How is this accomplished with an aluminum box? All three major manufactures (ATL FUEL SAFE and JAZZ) of fuel cells use a system that includes a "bladder" and a protective metal or ridged material housing.


My intent is to make clearer information available and to protect racers.

[Fat Bastard]

Originally Posted by zapster

One more thing Pat..
We fabbed up the tank in '79!
And no there is no "coating"

One more bit of advice..
Don't "get them going" ^^^^^^^^

You'll never read the end of it.

...zap!

Stupid is as stupid does. Zippy!

You have shown over the years that you have little regard for your own safety, it is not surprising that you push for others to follow your ignorant lead.

ps. are you here recruiting for macrozone land of the incompetent?

[Fat Bastard]

Bump?

[DavidSim]

Gosh, I wish I could weld like that.

[roadkillbobb]

so after all this name calling and cursing we can call it a fuel tank instead if a fuel cell and all is good....