Welder Demo's

[Billy]

Have seen a lot of questions asking for advice on which welder to buy. People give varying opinions as to why A is better than B and so on.

Then when the guy asking the questions has weighed up all the pro's and con's from all the information it seems as if boils it down to 2 or 3 machines.

But I do not see him saying that he has gone to his local LWS or the manufacturers rep to actually weld with the particular machines and then pick the one that he like's and feels more comfortable using.

If you do go there and do a "test drive", take some plate or whatever with you that you want the machine to weld and give it a work out.

Research and asking advice is good but you really have to be happy with the end result
Bit like buying a car, you do some research but you do not buy it unless you have test driven it !

Granted some manufacturers will not be able to provide a machine to test, but the red and blue etc will.

So my advice is : research, ask questions, weigh it all up, TEST DRIVE it

Cheers
Billy

[jstasney]

Ditto!

[David R]

I can tell you that when I looked and went to buy an LN-25 I didn't have a clue on how to mig weld. All I had done is stick. The folks at the not so local welding supply watched me and told me how great it looked. Where I live now, I don't think there is a place to try one out.

It IS a good idea to try before you buy.

Anyone is welcome to try my equipment.


David

[timrb]

Let me display my inexperience with a dumb question. Namely, what can you possibly learn from a test drive? For example, with MIG welders there are only two basic variables: wires speed and voltage. Once two different welders are set up the same (and correctly) won't they "feel" the same while welding? No argument, just asking.

Tim

[jstasney]

timrb
Solderer wrote: Let me display my inexperience with a dumb question. Namely, what can you possibly learn from a test drive? For example, with MIG welders there are only two basic variables: wires speed and voltage. Once two different welders are set up the same (and correctly) won't they "feel" the same while welding? No argument, just asking.

Tim

Hi Tim,
If you've welded any appreciable amount, you'll undoubtedly know that different brands of machines burn welding consumables differently.
All have their respective unique "arc characteristics".
They all have their "sweet spots" where they burn welding consumables the best.
This is true in all welding areas from GMAW to SMAW, to GTAW, from various steels and alloys, etc.
Each machine has a particular job that it does 'best'.
It is very difficult for manufacturers to make a single machine that does all welding processes better than all others. That is what makes the manufacturers of these machines unique, much like we as welders. No one welder does all types welding the best, there are 'specialists' in every field.
Therefore, IMHO, it's best to "Test Drive" a particular set of machines to a specific welding application to insure it's intended capatibility for it's intended purpose and duty cycle.

Duty cycle is something now a days that gets lost in the shuffle that is of utmost importance to someone who will heavily USE a machine. Many machines have a reduced duty cycle now, very many small amperage machines have duty cycles below 40%.
Duty cycle, simply put, means a machines run time at it's 'rated duty cycle output in amperage' for a given amount of minutes in a hour before it must be allowed to cool off, preventing it's over heating. The percentages relevant to minutes being 6 minutes for every 10% of duty cycle.
An example being machine "A" being rated for 180 amp output at a 40% duty cycle means this machine will produce a welding current of 180 amps for 24 minutes out of every hour without overheating or a combination thereof. ie, weld 6 minutes, cool 10, weld 6 minutes, cool 15, etc. The minutes must add up to no more than 24 minutes welding with 36 minutes cooling or overheating will occur leading to the untimely trip out of the overheating preventative circuit, if it has one. Something to consider heavily if your 'heavily using' a machine or might in the future. So, with these mentioned variables, I definately would consider a "Test Drive" for intended applications.


With Our Highest Regards from God's Country; Bethany, TX
<>< Jeff

[tresi]

Originally Posted by timrb

Let me display my inexperience with a dumb question. Namely, what can you possibly learn from a test drive? For example, with MIG welders there are only two basic variables: wires speed and voltage. Once two different welders are set up the same (and correctly) won't they "feel" the same while welding? No argument, just asking.

Tim

Things can be the same on paper but different when it comes to using it. How touchy are the knobs? can the knobs be adjusted with gloves on? With mig welders you may love the welder but hate the gun. How quick and easy are wire changes? Thenthere is alway the factor of How well do I like it? that really can't be assigned a number on paper. Most people that plop down $3000 to $20,000 for an engine drive are going to be stuck with it for a good long time so the How well do I like it factor really counts.

[jstasney]

Hi tresi...

tresi
WeldingWeb Craftsman wrote:
Things can be the same on paper but different when it comes to using it. How touchy are the knobs? can the knobs be adjusted with gloves on? With mig welders you may love the welder but hate the gun. How quick and easy are wire changes? Thenthere is alway the factor of How well do I like it? that really can't be assigned a number on paper. Most people that plop down $3000 to $20,000 for an engine drive are going to be stuck with it for a good long time so the How well do I like it factor really counts.
__________________
Tough as nails and damn near as smart

To that:
I'll agree....
Ditto!

<>< JLS

[SundownIII]

jstaysney,

You've got the principle down regarding duty cycle, but your times are wrong.

Duty cycle (for US built machines) is based on a ten (10) minute time span. For instance, in your example, you could weld for 4 minutes continuous at 180A, but then should allow the machine to cool for 6 minutes. Hourly rate has nothing to do with duty cycle. A 180A machine CANNOT weld at 180A for 24 minutes continuous, and then be allowed to cool for 36 minutes.

It can weld for 4 minutes, and then be allowed to cool for six minutes. That's a 40% duty cycle at rated output.

[Broccoli1]

Originally Posted by SundownIII

jstaysney,

You've got the principle down regarding duty cycle, but your times are wrong.

Duty cycle (for US built machines) is based on a ten (10) minute time span. For instance, in your example, you could weld for 4 minutes continuous at 180A, but then should allow the machine to cool for 6 minutes. Hourly rate has nothing to do with duty cycle. A 180A machine CANNOT weld at 180A for 24 minutes continuous, and then be allowed to cool for 36 minutes.

It can weld for 4 minutes, and then be allowed to cool for six minutes. That's a 40% duty cycle at rated output.

Deleted: maybe I should put my glasses on

[Broccoli1]

Originally Posted by timrb

Let me display my inexperience with a dumb question. Namely, what can you possibly learn from a test drive? For example, with MIG welders there are only two basic variables: wires speed and voltage. Once two different welders are set up the same (and correctly) won't they "feel" the same while welding? No argument, just asking.

Tim

I hear ya- buying a machine for the first time one really has no idea WTF to look for by testing one. Heck- most could not tell the difference between a Miller, Lincoln and a Longevity-if it at least turned on

After some experience welding you would be able to tell the machines apart and then it will be a personal preference as to which Arc characteristics you will prefer.

[jstasney]

Hi SundownIII
WeldingWeb Foreman ,
You wrote:
You've got the principle down regarding duty cycle, but your times are wrong.

Duty cycle (for US built machines) is based on a ten (10) minute time span. For instance, in your example, you could weld for 4 minutes continuous at 180A, but then should allow the machine to cool for 6 minutes. Hourly rate has nothing to do with duty cycle. A 180A machine CANNOT weld at 180A for 24 minutes continuous, and then be allowed to cool for 36 minutes.

It can weld for 4 minutes, and then be allowed to cool for six minutes. That's a 40% duty cycle at rated output.

Well, I've got egg on the face, my bad. You are entirely correct as referenced by http://www.toolingu.com/definition-6...uty-cycle.html
Gee, it's been a long time back lookin' at that data,
that's what I get for not lookin' it up for reference.
Thanks for the correct data....
However, has this data changed?
Back in the day I could have sworn it was by the hour.
Maybe not, I could be wrong....prolly am....

Yeah, Broccoli1, those glasses prolly should be worn more often here...
guilty as charged....

I stand corrected....

With Our Highest Regards from God's Country; Bethany, TX
<>< Jeff

[DesertRider33]

Migs from different manufacturers or even different models from the same manufacturer will weld differently. Part of it is the volt/amp curve relationship. Some can be adjusted with an inductance control, but the lower price point models don't have that adjustability so what you get is whatever the manufacturer designed it to be. You may like it, you may not. My HTP and Passport both havve a softer arc than my Millermatic 175 or the 211 my helper just bought. My 350P and XMT are both adjustable and can have whatever arc characteristic I want them to, but they're also both ALOT more expensive than most home-shop machines typically available to the home hobby welder.

[Billy]

If a person has any ability whatsoever they should be able to lay a bead down if shown how to within a few minutes with a MIG. Granted it will not be too flash but it will give him some idea.

Assuming he has done his research, ask questions etc, dont see why he would not be able to make a decision on a MIG to purchase !

Or are some of you saying that most people are incapable of using a MIG at all

If that is the case then they should learn how to weld first then buy one
I tend to give people more credit than that though.

Most of the people asking the questions seem to have some background, whether it be stick, OA or whatever.

Some people may be able to pull the trigger, lay a bead, but no idea about setup procedures, and o not really want to learn the finer points, as they only want to weld up a bit of sheet etc. every now and again, so they are better off with a simple machine without all the bells and whistles.

Just because some guys prefer a particular model/brand does not mean that the purchaser will. It will probably be a one off purchase, so he has to get it right the first time.
No good spending his hard earned on something that he is not happy with a week later!!

Soooooo I still say TEST DRIVE

Billy

[Ironmower]

The only thing I'd add is; TEST DRIVE the "machine" you plan on buyin' with the wire,gas & other consumables you plan on using.

[Broccoli1]

What is Duty cycle?
Duty Cycle- The amount of time a machine can be used at a particular output. Expressed as a percentage of a ten minute cycle, a 150 amp machine with a 30% duty cycle set at maximum will allow 3 minutes of use for every ten and a 60% duty cycle would allow 6 minutes of use for every ten. The duty cycle increases as the power setting decreases so if the 150 amp machine were to be used on a 30 amp setting the duty cycle might be 100% allowing it to be used 10 minutes out of every ten.

Keep in mind, however, that the actual total time a machine can be used continuously is not determined by a timer, but typically by a thermostat within the machine which will shut it off if the machine is too hot and needs to cool down before it does more work. Therefore, even a 30% machine can be used more than ten minutes at a stretch. Factors affecting duty cycle include whether or not the machine has an internal fan and ambient temperature of the work area.

[rookie_steve]

Demo run is a good idea.

The thread seems to have shifted toward "ideal welders" now, so I'll add that I believe IMHO a good stick welder is probably the best all-around welder for most budget-minded people. Whether you are a home-hobby welder or a professional, everyone should have a stick welder, at least for some needs. And it might help to have stick experience if you ever get a TIG, right?

I began my search looking for a MIG welder but then found out that I would be limited to thin stuff. So I decided to get a stick first and then later I'll get a mid-level MIG like a Hobart 187 to do the real thin stuff.

Who knows, I might get good enough at welding with my Thunderbolt and Quickstart 1/16 electrodes to even weld 22 gauge.

Later,
Steve

[DesertRider33]

If you're welding well below rated output, you can greatly exceed the rated duty cycle minutes without harm to the machine. Every machine has a point in the output range where it's duty cycle is 100%. At that point or below, no problem welding continuously or repeatedly.