weldanpower code 8551 idle controll

[jkh23046]

picked up weldanpower ac225/dc210/6-trying to fiqure out idle controll.there is idle circut board and two wires going to magnetic coil at engine.one wire off board contact 214 and one off board contact 215.I disconnected these wires and tested with 12 volt batt.and magnet works.Tested dc voltage at board contact 214 and get 16 volt red to contact black to ground of tester.When conecting tester red to 214 black to 215 as magnetic coil wires connect I get 8 volts.With magnetic coil hooked up welder running it does not seem to be enough voltage to magnetic coil to idle machine .Hook to 12 volt battery with machine running and it pulles to idle as it should.If I connect one wire of magnetic coil to 214 board contact and the other wire that should connect to 215 but instead I connect to ground magnetic coil pulls to idle as it should.If i switch idle idle switch to auto idle I have voltage at contact 214 if I switch to high idle I have vo voltage so I guessing switch is ok. Pulled all wires and cleaned contacts on circut board thinking it is ground problem results the same.What should my voltage be to work coil ? What should My next step be.Machine has been seeting idle for few years cleaned out mice nest and inspected and wires and parts look fine runs good .Have not tested weld end but generator voltage good and motor sounds strong.

[duaneb55]

Welcome to the forum jkh23046.

Terminal 214 on the idler board is not used. The idler board and idler solenoid gets 12vdc+ on circuit #213 from the Auto Idle switch in the AUTO position. Circuit #215 provides the controlled solenoid ground from the board.


If you don't already have it, you can download your unit manual here http://content.lincolnelectric.com//...r/im/IM308.pdf so you can refer to the appropriate wiring schematic.

[jkh23046]

Thanks for quick response.I am new to these things so I hope I am clear.When I look at the board it is labled wp 225/210 idler l6325 it has 8 wires connected on right side of board .Labled from top to bottom in this order 214 215 213 5 216 3 217 218.Two wires going to silenoid one connected to 214 connection the other to 215 connection. Is this correct or has wiring been messed with before it came to me?

[duaneb55]

Sounds as if it has been tampered with.

Is there a piggy back terminal end on either one of the solenoid wires? Solenoid wire numbers should be 213 and 215 and wire 213 from the solenoid or 213 from the Auto Idle switch may have a piggy back terminal that would allow both 213 wires to be connected at the idler board. Make sense? Again, terminal 214 on the board is not used.

[jkh23046]

No piggyback connectors .I trace 213 going to idle switch it is single wire from 213 board connection down to idle switch which has two connectors one in middle of switch and one at top. 213 connects to one at top. sileniod has two single wires with connectors connected at 215 and 214. Thanks for your help

[duaneb55]

OK. Do you have the manual to refer to the wiring schematic? If not, download it so you can see how it's supposed to be wired.

[jkh23046]

If I understand the schematic and what you tell me I need to come off 215 with one wire of silenoid other wire of silenoid goes to switch and piggy back connection back to connection 213.Sounds good .Thanks for your help I will let you know.

[duaneb55]

Yup, that's it. Or if it's easier piggy back off 213 at the board. No matter which engine is used the idler board is wired the same way for all.

[duaneb55]

For anyone interested, it's only right to update the thread with the latest findings.

jkh23046 confirmed his machine is not wired per the schematic in the appropriate manual IM-308 and has secured the correct machine and idler board schematics from Lincoln.

Hence the disclaimer "NOTE: This diagram is for reference only. It is not accurate for all machines covered by this manual."

Anyhow, with the initial tests conducted and listed by jkh23046 in his original post and armed with the control board schematic it appears the fault lies with the idler solenoid 12v(-) ground control circuit of the board - or at least that's the only thing that makes sense with the information available.

[jkh23046]

Duane,thanks for your help I got back rebuilt idler board Monday and installed today.2 hr run-weld-and power tool use test and everything on this old welder works fine [good feeling]never know when you by used.I pretty much know maint.for 16 hp briggs but do you have any advise on maint.for welding end of this machine?

[duaneb55]

That's great news jkh23046 and thanks for the update. Many times we don't hear back on how things turn out.

Maintenance on the welder end is very basic and is pretty much limited to watching brush wear and slip ring condition (clean and not tarnished) along with the Course Current and Polarity switches wipers and contacts. Infrequent use and climate can lead to slip rings and switch contacts tarnishing resulting in poor or no performance - welding or power. Same goes for the Fine Current Adjustment rheostat. Other than that just routine blow outs with compressed air and check connectors and terminals to make sure all are tight and secure. Frequency depends on how often the unit is operated.

Thanks again for the update.
Duane

[gh45ver]

Originally Posted by duaneb55

Sounds as if it has been tampered with.

Is there a piggy back terminal end on either one of the solenoid wires? Solenoid wire numbers should be 213 and 215 and wire 213 from the solenoid or 213 from the Auto Idle switch may have a piggy back terminal that would allow both 213 wires to be connected at the idler board. Make sense? Again, terminal 214 on the board is not used.

i have the same welder 8551 i strike the rod it idles up for a few seconds the idles down while welding as soon as it idles down i tap the rod it raises the engine again for a few more seconds the goes back down . i checkes all connections put new ternimals and checked the connection on the reactor and the one on the selector switch they all are good even put new terminal on the ground at the charging booard. if u haver any hints what to check would be great i am thinking the transformer works till it gets hot then stops i have about 17v ac when i strike the rod but have not checked if it drops while welding cant do both

[duaneb55]

An intermittent failing weld sensing current transformer could be to blame and may need to be investigated.

Does it stay at weld/power speed with a load on the auxiliary outlets? If it does, remove wire #218 from the idler control board and protect it from shorting. Remove wire #217 and reinstall where wire #218 was removed from and try it again.

If it stays on weld/power speed, the idler control board is defective.

[gh45ver]

Originally Posted by duaneb55

An intermittent failing weld sensing current transformer could be to blame and may need to be investigated.

Does it stay at weld/power speed with a load on the auxiliary outlets? If it does, remove wire #218 from the idler control board and protect it from shorting. Remove wire #217 and reinstall where wire #218 was removed from and try it again.

If it stays on weld/power speed, the idler control board is defective.

hello again well i tried using the grinder and it stayed at speed while the grinder was on then i tried to weld in the middle of the weld idles down. i disconnected 218 and placed 217 in that terminal it idles down and riases when i strick the rod but still idles down in the middle of the weld. i have a wire goind to the selector switch which seems to be solderd in looks ok any other suggestions wondering if i should replace the leanth of the wire to the selector awitch let me know if any other suggestions and thank you for ur time ur very helpful i give thanks to that

[duaneb55]

Your description and test indicates to me the weld sensing current transformer (CT) is suspect. You've got to get someone to watch the voltmeter when you're welding and test the weld sensing CT output (AC volts) at wires #216 and 217. If output is intermittent, also check at CT input wires #R2 and #2.

[gh45ver]

Originally Posted by duaneb55

Your description and test indicates to me the weld sensing current transformer (CT) is suspect. You've got to get someone to watch the voltmeter when you're welding and test the weld sensing CT output (AC volts) at wires #216 and 217. If output is intermittent, also check at CT input wires #R2 and #2.

ok i tried it with the volt meter on a/c and it gives me 65v and varies to 57v then when it starts to idle down the voltage drops when the engine speed lower to 25 then to 0

[gh45ver]

hi again well i tried it all even replaced the idle transformer and rechecked the wires and connections on the control board it stays at high when using the grinder but again when welding in the middle of the weld goes to idle i've done about it all . i was wondering if changing the wire from the winding to a larger one or smaller to maybe would make a difference on the current draw to stay on high speed it has like a 16 gage wire would that make a difference. i had the boards rebuil by innovatt, put new brushes , replaced spark wire to risitor type new risistor plug even resolderd the wire to the selector switch

[duaneb55]

I know you said Innovatt went thru the boards but based on all your tests and findings, I have to now believe you will find a bad solder joint or trace break somewhere between idler board terminal B5 for wire #216 and the common board ground.

It's the only thing common to the two activation circuits and your test of swapping wires #217 and #218. Even with adequate voltage from the idler transformer while welding, a bad solder joint or cracked trace from wire #216 terminal B5 could break the weld sensing circuit allowing the idler board to time out and re-energize the idler solenoid.

Look the board over very closely with a magnifying glass in bright light looking for a cracked solder joint or circuit trace from wire #216 terminal B5 inward on the circuit.

[GBM]

Originally Posted by duaneb55

..... You've got to get someone to watch the voltmeter....

OR, for one man shops.... have a video camera watching it....

[duaneb55]

Originally Posted by GBM

OR, for one man shops.... have a video camera watching it....

Excellent point.

[jcon]

This is a question for duane. I am currently redoing a lincoln 25. code 8551. 16 hp briggs. when i first checked it out i had voltage from it. now after reapinting it i have nothing. i cleaned the slip rings. brushes are good, move freely, rotor is not shorted. have 4.7 ohms between them with brushes insulated from it. fuse is good on flashing circuit. im not positive of the flashing diode. i have 6.7 ohms one way and o/L other way. have 12volts between both pins on engine stator. when i excite the brushes with 12volts it puts out power. The only thing im not sure on is the plug from the engine stator. one wire is cut off and one wire goes to the 8 amp fuse. Does this cut wire suppose to be grounded? thank you

[duaneb55]

These units typically have a single wire AC output stator with the windings grounded to the stator core. Two wire stators are either combination DC/AC output or AC only output. I'm not aware of a two wire DC output (across both wires) stator.

On the common DC/AC two wire units, the red wire is DC and AC is the black wire (pin to ground in both cases). Double check the wire colors and voltage from each to ground - DC on red and AC on black. Black would be used for the initial exciter input - flashing diode rectifies the output to half wave DC. The DC output would be used for battery charging in applications that required same. It's quite possible a previous owner or shop replaced a bad single wire AC stator with a two wire DC/AC which will still work fine from the AC side for exciter voltage.

[duaneb55]

Update - I did find a two wire stator that is is listed as DC regulated output. Stator #715798 with two black wires but not sure it fits the 16HP. If it does and this is the one, then I would have to say the other wire gets grounded to complete the circuit.

You can test it by running the "ground" thru a fuse to protect the windings in the event it's just another two wire AC output that requires a rectifier/regulator and only considered DC as a result.

[philmicrackin]

Duane i dont mean to interupt but tried to find you in the "members list" but its disabled. What website has the wiring schematics for Licoln welders ive looked at it but now i cant find it. Need to rewire a 57 SA200 shorthood engine side.Thanks in advance and again sorry to interup.... Phil

[duaneb55]

One of the most popular.
http://www.billswelderrepair.com/SA200schematics.html