Steel price

[NoDak]

1911man:

You are right this is the best place to be on the rock and because of that everyone wants a piece of it, or they hate us for it.

What (it) refers to is money! This is the richest country in the world and our entire economy depends on the population of the United States of America spending money. We have a consumption based economy that, FUELS THE WORLD!

In some ways that makes us our own worst enemy. We all want our money to stretch as far as it can. So we buy for the most part, what we perceive as the, best value, we can find for our hard earned dollars.

Harbor Freight band saws are a good example. Almost everyone would rather have an Ellis band saw, but we perceive Harbor Freight as a better value not because of quality of product but because of price. It is possible to purchase almost all of your shop equipment at Harbor Freight for what one Ellis bandsaw would cost, around $3,000.00.

That is how China gets a piece of our rock. They buy our scrap metal smelt it down, make knock off products, sell them back to us. If we don't buy them they will still buy our scrap metal, smelt it down and make bombs out of it and try and take the rock. Just like Japan did prior to WWII.

The manufacturing jobs that leave the United States are a direct result of our consumption based economy and comfortable lifestyle.

Our government makes trade deals to put third world economies to work so they won't just set around hating the United States until they decide to go to war with us because we have everything.

There is no way to stop it, and no way to not participate. It (money) is the route of all evil, and I would like as much of it as possible so I can buy as much stuff ( as George Carlin says) as I possibly can!!! It is the American way.

[NoDak]

1911man:

You are right this is the best place to be on the rock and because of that everyone wants a piece of it, or they hate us for it.

What (it) refers to is money! This is the richest country in the world and our entire economy depends on the population of the United States of America spending money. We have a consumption based economy that, FUELS THE WORLD!

In some ways that makes us our own worst enemy. We all want our money to stretch as far as it can. So we buy for the most part, what we perceive as the, best value, we can find for our hard earned dollars.

Harbor Freight band saws are a good example. Almost everyone would rather have an Ellis band saw, but we perceive Harbor Freight as a better value not because of quality of product but because of price. It is possible to purchase almost all of your shop equipment at Harbor Freight for what one Ellis bandsaw would cost, around $3,000.00.

That is how China gets a piece of our rock. They buy our scrap metal smelt it down, make knock off products, sell them back to us. If we don't buy them they will still buy our scrap metal, smelt it down and make bombs out of it and try and take the rock. Just like Japan did prior to WWII.

The manufacturing jobs that leave the United States are a direct result of our consumption based economy and comfortable lifestyle.

Our government makes trade deals to put third world economies to work so they won't just set around hating the United States until they decide to go to war with us because we have everything.

There is no way to stop it, and no way to not participate. It (money) is the route of all evil, and I would like as much of it as possible so I can buy as much stuff ( as George Carlin says) as I possibly can!!! It is the American way. P.S. Bought 4/1/2" angle grinder this week at Sears made in Chiner. Son's Bitches! None of this means I have to like it!

[Franz]

"Kind of interesting point about pensions driving the 'old' US companies out of buisiness. That whole pre-401k generation sucked the life out of hundreds of companies via pensions."
Well, if you been ridin the rock as long as I have, you also remember back in the 60s when a lot of the private pension plans collapsed because pension administrators used the pension funds to prop up sick companys. Hickock, a major leather manufacturer, in Rochester was a famous example, and even after Tandy bought the company for a dime on the dollar, the pensioners got screwed.
After that, the GOOBURMUNT stepped in, and put all kinds of rules on pension administration.
Now, everybody has a 401k, and still doesn't understand this latest generation of the 1960s Canadian System is falable. Lots of poorly informed people buy annuitys, and don't have a clue they need to ask who is reinsuring the company issuing the annuity. About 15 years back a big west coast insurer crapped out leaving all their policy holders with empty hands.
Just a couple weeks back the government announced the US Pension Guarantee fund is seriously underfunded, and if a few more private pensions collapse, the fund will go bankrupt. Gee, BIG surprize, didn't we just pay off the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation with tax dopllars cause Jimmy Carter's pal Burt Lance screwed the pooch when it came to the US banking system.
The rich elitist bastards will always get to screw the working man, because their buddys and classmates from school protect them. If you've ever had the pleasure of dealing with IRS, you quickly learn IRS has a mechanism to get their money come hell or high water. There is nothing comparable to the joy of finding out the guy who paid you for your work also owed IRS, and now, you get to give them the money you collected, because they can and will take it. So, why the hell do people like the president of Enron get to keep all the money they stold? Cause they paid off Senators and Congressmen, who make the law giving them the right to screw everybody but IRS.
Unless and until the voting population figures out any politician who has been in office 2 terms needs to get replaced, the little guy doesn't stand a chance. Are the politicians worried? Hell no.
They know Jefferson was right when he talked about an informed intelligent voter, and they also know they have eliminated the possibility of a sufficient number of intelligent voters.

[echo8287]

Franz that US Management Philosophy was right on the mark,and very funny too. There is a small Alcan Plant up the street and I know a couple of people that work there. If you had to work there you'd need a pension and some pretty good health benefits too, as it is not that good of a work enviornment. Hey, No Dak everyone doesn't buy a HF bandsaw. I've got an Ellis 1200 that I found as a demo for 1650.00. It works great and I love the miter function as I don't have a bender yet. I had always rather buy American if possible but it seems less and less things are made here as our jobs are shifted overseas and to Mexico. I was looking at some new bedroom furniture at a Haverity's and a Rhodes furniture store today.(my wife made me go). She was inspecting the drawers for dovetailing and looked on the back of a nightstand where LO & BEHOLD there was a "Made in China" sticker on the back. Then we started checking all the furniture from then on for the sticker. Alot of it was Made in China. Damn is everything made overseas now!!!! David

[NoDak]

echo8287:

I said, almost everyone would like to have an Ellis bandsaw! That was a good price on the one you got. I priced one this week for $3000.00 but I forgot the model number. The store had Jet or Ellis. I was just using Harbor Frieght as an example of how we like to get a good deal.

It is amazing how much stuff is manufactured in China. We purchased a desk last year. The sales lady made a big deal out of made in America. When we got it home, it had made in China stamped all over it! The more we buy the more they will make!

[Franz]

A couple years back, before BahHumbugh, I ventured into the Combat Zone lookin for some things for the wife. Bein an Old Fart, I figured I'd check that famous French designer store, J C Pannay. I'd done my research, checked labels for sizes and all before the trip, so I started pickin things out she'd look good in.
Seemed like every damn thing I looked at had tiny print labels that I needed a magnifier to read made in Beleze, China, Russia, Guatamala and VietFNam. Well, anything made in VietFNam went right where it belonged, on the floor. One of the clerks walked by and did the LOOK, so I told her dink crap goes where it belongs, and if you want to import sh!t and put American sounding names on it I'll be happy to piss on it for you. She walked off figurin it was the safe thing to do.
After an hour in that damn store I hadn't found a single garment made in the US. It wasn't a bit better in any other stores either. Even Levis are made in Mexico now.
Nice friggin situation when Whorehouse Willie can make rat bastards rich by givin them the right to sell their crap in the US, along with frozen noodles and dink beer.
Chinese manufacturing is really going to take off now as the first phase of the 3 gorges dam is producing electricity. Now they have power and can bring in the population from rural areas and convert them to cheap factory labor.

[JustLooking]

Notice it is also the U.S. Steel Firms and not just the Steelworkers Union. The Steelworkers Unions are trying to help the U.S. Manufacturers help them to keep working. The Steelworkers are also taking cuts in pay increases while the Corporate CEOs are popping golden parachutes. The Steelworkers Unions are not the ones making the decisions for the Company on Upgrading their equipment. That is the job of management and the Higher Up CEOs that get Millions of Dollars a year for a pay check plus many other incentatives to promote improvements for modernizing.

U.S. steel firms and steelworkers have asked for a 40 percent across-the-board tariff for four years on a broad range of steel imports. They blame low-priced imports for 31 bankruptcies since 1997 and are seeking temporary "safeguard" protection under "Section 201" of U.S. trade law.

Administration and congressional sources said the president would impose tariffs of up to 30 percent on many categories of imported steel from Japan, South Korea, Brazil, Russia and Ukraine. Canada and Mexico, partners with the United States in the North American Free Trade Agreement, and several developing nations would be exempt from the tariffs, the sources said. http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/fr/640284/posts

China is probably one of the Developing Nations. For some reason whatever it is the USA is allied with buying from China. Wonder what it is?

The truth is there are many reasons why the U.S. steel industry cannot compete with foreign steel makers. First among these is that the industry IS unionized. The primary effect of unions is to bar workers who would accept lower wages from entering the work force. We have millions of immigrants in the U.S. who would be happy to take steel jobs at lower wages, but steel workers don't want to be forced to seek new jobs in industries where the U.S. is competitive - like computers.

A second major reason why U.S. steel makers can't compete in the global market are environmental regulations. U.S. producers face cost-raising requirements like reducing emmissions that foreign producers don't have to comply with.

The environmental regulations make steel's argument that it is essential to national security bunk. For example, for years, the U.S. has not been able to produce anchor chain for its ships, not because it didn't have the technology, but because environmental regulations make it illegal to use the forging processes that must be used to make the chain. The U.S. must depend on foreign producers that don't face the same enviironmental regulations for anchor chain.
http://www.citizensoldier.org/steeltarrifs.html

When was the last time this Moron in the quoted link above checked where Computers are Made? The Computer Tech Support is being farmed out to off shore facilities quicker then you can say IBM. Since we mentioned IBM let's talk about some old words known as "IBM CLONE."

There are a lot of people that think like this individual but if you dig into their back yard for earning a living then they would be seriously offended and protective. How many of you would like to work for lower wages or allow an Illegal Alien to work your job? How would you feed your family?

http://www.uswa.org/uswa/program/content/916.php

http://www.uswa.org/uswa/program/content/239.php

http://www.uswa.org/uswa/program/content/937.php

http://www.uswa.org/uswa/program/content/940.php

http://www.uswa.org/uswa/program/content/943.php

http://www.uswa.org/uswa/program/content/927.php

I think the price hikes in steel are BS but check who the people are setting those prices - probably not the U.S. Steelworkers. It is probably the CEOs priming up before the Golden Parachute pops open. That has become the American Way.

We won't talk about the Companies leaving that had Grand Father Clauses for meeting U.S. Govt EPA & other requirements. Who wants to live in a polluted area or work around it? Once these Companies pull out to go over seas do they clean up the pollution left behind? The answer is usually, No. The tax payers pick up the tab and the out of work people left behind are also added burdens.

Why aren't the prices of imported goods going down if moving them is such a cost saver? Where are the record profits going after the move to foreign soil?

The Cost of Unfair Trade

Flawed trade policies cost American jobs, put downward pressure on U.S. wages and working conditions, erode the ability of governments to protect public health and the environment and have contributed to political and economic instability and growing inequality in the rest of the world.

Instead of bringing prosperity to workers in developed and less developed countries, as its proponents promised, globalization has spawned a race to the bottom in which companies seek out the cheapest labor, weakest environmental laws and fewest workers' rights. As a result, millions of people in developing and developed nations labor in sweatshop conditions, working long hours in unsafe and unhealthy conditions for little pay.

The rules of the global economy are set by the World Trade Organization, a secretive group of top government leaders, the World Bank and the International Monetary Fund, which emphasize corporate rights over human rights.
http://www.uswa.org/uswa/program/content/173.php

Who are these people?

World Trade Organization, a secretive group of top government leaders, the World Bank and the International Monetary Fund.

http://www.betterworldlinks.org/book70k.htm

[JustLooking]

Hey Franz didn't you see the Special on TV the Vietnam People are Our Friends now. There was a broadcast on TV showing a U.S. Navy Warship on shore leave for the crew members. The U.S. Navy Personnel were touring the tunnels and firing AK47's and all that fun stuff. They are our friend and have made their version of Disney Land.

[JustLooking]

"Unless the WTO is fundamentally changed to include core labor rights and environmental accords, workers must call on their government to take whatever steps are necessary to replace it with a set of global trading rules that work for working families.

The WTO is more than a set of rules; it is a business driven movement toward unrestrained corporate trade. It began with GATT, accelerated through NAFTA, and has gained world dominance under the WTO.

Through the WTO, multinational executives, Wall Street financiers, and their government surrogates have created a rules-based global trading regimen. The problem is, the rules they have created are based on freeing these global behemoths to exploit workers and degrade the environment.

During the past 20 years of the most rapid expansion ever in global trade, workers have been shamelessly exploited. Freed by the WTO from the limited obligations placed on them by our labor and environmental laws, multinational corporations now move operations across borders with impunity in search of the cheapest labor available. NAFTA is a prime example of the movement's tactics.

In practice, NAFTA is used as a weapon by multinational corporations to extract wage and benefit concessions, bolstered constantly by the threat of moving all or part of their operations to Mexico, where any attempt to organize unions or rectify injustices routinely result in firing, if not arrest.

When local governments in Mexico threatened to levy taxes on the companies operating in the maquilas, companies stated publicly that they would move to China, where labor is even cheaper, where "there is no turnover, and the government takes care of everything else;" where the disgrace of child labor, prison labor, military-owned factories, and the murder of dissenting young idealists are already a tragic fact of life.

These tactics pit worker against worker from one country to the next in a perpetual cycle of beggar thy neighbor. In numerous cases, production is moved out even after sizeable concessions have been extracted.

Since 1980, the U.S. manufacturing's share of total private sector employment has plummeted by 60%! Some 2.5 million workers have had to find other jobs, usually at much lower pay than the family-supportive wages they enjoyed in manufacturing. For example, the median hourly wages for male high school graduates dropped 22% from 1973 to 1997. And whole communities have been destroyed, both economically and socially.

Today, the devastation continues, much less obviously than the collapse of steel mill towns and cities during the Eighties - all the more insidious by virtue of being nearly invisible. Over the past 16 months, more than 500,000 U.S. manufacturing jobs have been lost, and the number is expected to rise as high as 700,000 by year's end.

No such misfortune is befalling the architects of unrestrained corporate trade. Pay for the average Chief Executive Officer in 1980 was 42 times the average pay for his or her workers. Today it is 419 times as great!"

http://www.fixitornixit.com/uswaposition.htm

The Powers that be are very good at deception they keep people like us pointing our fingers at each other instead of at them.

[caper]

We have or I should say used to have a steel plant across the harbour here.The powers that be deemed it unprofitable several years back and shut it down.Want to guess what is happening now?It is being dismantled and sent to china on ships for scrap steel. We have been unable to sell scrap here for several years,I must have about three tractor trailer loads stored up in the field,now the price has gone up and the dealers are buying again but mine has about three feet of snow on it.I figure that when the snow melts they'll probably stop buying again.