Balcony project just got complicated

[TPnTX]

I have a potential project building a balcony for a customer. It was no big deal at first. A 6 1/2 ' wide balcony, not very deep towards the house. 60" radius.
They emailed some pics of what the had in mind. I found a baluster at King they liked and we where off.

Then I noticed I used a baluster that was only 21" high.


I should have noticed it but in the catalog, it's easy to miss. Its the only baluster in the group that's short.

So I emailed the saying I'd made a mistake and included a couple of choices.

[TPnTX]

This is the closest one to what they picked out.


His wife hated it. I offed more choices even from other places....no go.

I even offered an illustrated design to use the short ones with an additional top horz. section with scrolls. No go.

She wants the Pot belly design with the small top and large bottom scroll. <<<----Period!

While Im at make solid square bar not flat bar. Twisted.....

He's agreed to pay. Just make it happen. I realy want this job because this guy and I have allready talked about me doing all his gate work and several hundred feet of steel fence.

If it's possible I'm going to half to find someone to bend these and before I break out the yellow pages I though I'd bounce it off the forum here and get some good advise.

I'm not affraid of getting a bender with a scroll attactment. I'm thinking this might be a toughy for a 1st project. I need about 25 of them

thanks if you got any good ideas.

[TPnTX]

Here the alternate design I made for her

[chopper5]

why dont you make them your self?

[wroughtn_harv]

Originally Posted by chopper5

why dont you make them your self?

That was my thought.

In Mesquite there's an old boy named Bill Epps. He put all the "r"s in "character", probably the "t" too. You need to look him up Tom. He can show you how to make your own where each one will be exactly like the others.

One of the things between a blacksmith's scroll and a weldor's is the quality and style of the end. Plus a forged scroll is stiffer and more uniform in appearance. They just take more skill and time to fabricate.

Tom I met with a builder the other evening to look at some indoor handrails. I'm bidding a unique product unlike the stuff you get at Kings and he provides the wood cap. Two hundred dollars a linear foot and I'm afraid I'll get it. I really don't want it. Twenty five thousand dollars is a lot of money for a hundred and twenty feet of handrail. And if I get it I'll earn every dime.

The house is custom about ten thousand square feet. I'd much rather build a couple thousand feet of pipe fence with V Mesh wire.

[TPnTX]

Originally Posted by chopper5

why dont you make them your self?

well I'm not opposed to doing it myself. That why I came here to see if it was something worth doing considering
1) she wants solid bar(twisted) instead of flat and
2) The only bending I've yet to do is 1" tube on a table.

For all I know scrolls make take many many attempt to get right much less indentical to one another.

Harv thanks for the contact. I'll look into that.

[tapwelder]

If you do make the baluster yourself consider the price you want to charge. It will cost you more the King charges just for the first baluster.

I have bent and twisted 1" square, you will need a forge, at least a some firebricks set up to make an oven. A propane burner is not difficult to make nor expensive, find plans on the web.

I would not attemp to go above 1/2" sq. since it looks like you will need about 20+ pickets for the balcony. You can twist it cold and bend it tightly with a torch and a jig.

On this forum there is a good thread for a picket twister design if you have to twist them yourself.

I'd definitely take Harv's suggestion and consult Mr. Epps. I think he is the same guy who did demonstrations on www.anvilfire.com.

Also assuming you have the four inch code, pay attention to the corners. You will have to add an additional baluster or post or scroll to get it to pass codes.

[TPnTX]

yeah I know it's 3am....My PC has been attacked by adware. I've been working on it since early yesterday trying to get it back to normal.


Hey tap whats up? I wasn't planning on doing the twisting. I gotta be realistic. I was hoping to buy them twisted and long enough to used to make the scrolls. I haven't found them longer that 47" yet so it ain't looking good.

[chopper5]

harborfright sell a tool for making them my dad and i have one and it works good

[TPnTX]

really? you've got that one with the scroll attachment? I was looking at those. I didn't know if it would work for 1/4 solid bar.

[tapwelder]

I have the scroll attachment. I don't use scrolls from it for high end homes. I think it does 1/4 flat max,maybe only 3/16. I had a job where I did several cookie cutter rail with panel columns, inside rails and mail boxes. It really came in handy for producing repeated scrolls. However, I don't think it produces scrolls thick enough for high end homes. From a distance you can't really see the side profile. I also use it for scroll patterns then forge thicker ones.

Several of Kings "hand forged" balusters are simply pieced together elements. Essentially their suppliers does the welding for you using the individually elements they sell. So perhaps this is an option. Jig it up straight, tack it, weld it, clean it--shouldn't take long.

[DaveD]

Kings has twisted bar in their catalog. 8' and 19' up to 1" square. Loosly and tightly twisted.

I have a decorative iron catalog (www.decorativeiron.com) that has 20' sticks up to 5/8" square.

Decorative Iron is in Houston.

[TPnTX]

Thanks Dave I didn't see those.

Tap I wish I could get them pick something out. For the price of hand forging the baluster she likes, she could pick out some pretty nice stuff pre-fab. I guess.

I'll see what the guy in mesquite can recommend and go from there

[Sandy]

Originally Posted by TPnTX

Tap I wish I could get them pick something out. For the price of hand forging the baluster she likes, she could pick out some pretty nice stuff pre-fab. I guess.

Remember now, you are trying to use your logic on someone else... She may not give a rats *** about the costs. There could be some background that you are unaware of.

There is a definite possibility that he is trying to tell you "you make her happy, I'm happy"..

There are those situations where the hubby (mr. billfold) may not be too happy about her choices and the costs associated, but he is satisfied with the fact that you were able to produce what she wanted.

Oh, good luck in the lioness' den!!!!

[TPnTX]

well i Sandy I can't disagree. Here is what I sent her that she liked.

[TPnTX]

since she has to have that baluster I offered this.

[TPnTX]

which i thinl looks better than the 1st.

[tapwelder]

Why not just cut the balusters and add what you need to the design she wants.

Off the topic--check this out for $200 http://www.ornamentalpro.com/ seems like a good deal. However, I have been skeptical since it doesn't produce a cut list. Though it would be great for presentations.

[TPnTX]

she wants balusters made just like the 21"s. I guess I don't know what you mean.
Hey tap, send me an email would ya. TPnTX@yahoo.com

[TPnTX]

well thats a good idea. All you need then is a PDF print driver and your good to go. I'm pretty sceptical of Software that doesn't give you a chance to eval it. You know like where it times out after 15 days. As opposed to refund.
I'll look into that some more.

[12,000 Doors]

If you sat on the middle of a rail of scrolls without a top horizontal section wouldn't it sag. I mean all the balusters are just pretty much like weak springs aren't they.

[TPnTX]

I can see why you might think that but with 25 scrolls on a 6.5' section I don't think it'll be too springy.

[TPnTX]

Harv, thanks for pointing me to Billy Epps. I just got through visiting him and He is a real blacksmith.
He is going to make me a couple of samples to take to the customer.

Before that I went and got me a HF bender with the scroll attachment. I may keep the bender but the scroll attachment seems to me to be a waist of time and money. Has anyone else used one of those with and luck?


.

[wroughtn_harv]

Originally Posted by TPnTX

Harv, thanks for pointing me to Billy Epps. I just got through visiting him and He is a real blacksmith.
He is going to make me a couple of samples to take to the customer.

Before that I went and got me a HF bender with the scroll attachment. I may keep the bender but the scroll attachment seems to me to be a waist of time and money. Has anyone else used one of those with and luck?


.

That's the way it works Tom. You see real scrolls and how they're made and all of a sudden what you thought of as ornamental iron is junk.

I believe Bill is still selling videos how tos if anyone's interested.

When you first start making iron you see the product. Then when you get into it you start seeing that it's as much about process as it is about product.
The next step after that is you become more enamored with the process than the product.

Balcones Forge is a blacksmithing group in central Texas. This weekend they're having a demonstration. They get the very best demonstrators. Last year it was Uri Hofi from Israel. If you're interested and can be in Marble Falls this weekend do a search for "balcones forge" and hold on tite.

[TPnTX]

well I wish I could go.

I really got an eye full watching how make scrolls. He didn't mention vidoes, I'll ask him.