Help Choosing a MIG for a Newbie

[JohnS]

Please excuse me for imposing on others for some advice on selecting what will be my first MIG welding machine. When it comes to tools and equipment I tend to try to my “homework” first then seek the advice from people with experience. I strongly believe in the old adage of “how many years does it take to gain 30 years of experience?

I intend to use it for general purpose type “home” repairs to things like my boat trailer fenders, my small Bolens tractor with loader and backhoe, making jigs for use in hobby type woodworking, etc. Just general purpose for the typical “do it yourself” type projects.

I also tend to stay with “name brand” equipment simply because they usually hold up better and in general outperform the cheaper imported stuff. For example I stay with Delta for my larger woodworking equipment and Festool for the handheld equipment such as routers, sanders, etc.

From what I have think I learned is that when it comes to a brand name for a MIG welder; those made by Miller, Lincoln, and Hobart appear to make the better quality equipment as opposed to say those from Harbor Freight. I am sure there are other manufacturers that make equivalent quality equipment but those 3 seem to be at the forefront.
I have pretty much decided I want a 220 volt machine simply because I have it available in my garage and I don’t want to short change myself if I have to weld something in the 3/16” range. Since I don’t intend to do a lot of welding, a smaller used machine would probably suit my needs and by buying a used machine, save myself a few bucks I could spend on other equipment on my wish list.

I have found a couple of used machines that appear that they would suit my requirements. One is a Miller Auto Arc XLT 165 and the other a Lincoln Pro Mig 175. From what I could learn, the Miller is about 10years old and the Lincoln is 2 years old. It appears that the original typical pricing of the Miller was a couple hundred more than the Lincoln for some reason I am unsure of since hey appear to be of similar specifications and capabilities.
I don’t think I could go wrong with either of the two but the Miller is $150 less than the Lincoln.

I guess after all of my long winded prelude, the questions I have boils down to these: Am I correct in my thinking these would both be a good choices for a general purpose home use machine and does either have an advantage over the other?

Thanks all in advance for even reading this post.

Warmest Regards,
John S

[Jack Olsen]

If you get a Miller 211, you could use it with 220 in the shop and 110 when you need to take it to some particular job in the house.

[marchboom]

I'm also in the market for a 220 elder and it's between the Lincoln SP-180T, the Millermatic 180 with Auto-set and the Hobart Handler 187. I'm leaning towards the Miller but am wondering if the auto-set feature really works well? I have done some gas and arc welding but that was 40 yrs ago. I looking for something that give me easy quality welds.

[technoid]

Originally Posted by JohnS

Please excuse me for imposing on others for some advice on selecting what will be my first MIG welding machine. When it comes to tools and equipment I tend to try to my “homework” first then seek the advice from people with experience. I strongly believe in the old adage of “how many years does it take to gain 30 years of experience?

I intend to use it for general purpose type “home” repairs to things like my boat trailer fenders, my small Bolens tractor with loader and backhoe, making jigs for use in hobby type woodworking, etc. Just general purpose for the typical “do it yourself” type projects.

I also tend to stay with “name brand” equipment simply because they usually hold up better and in general outperform the cheaper imported stuff. For example I stay with Delta for my larger woodworking equipment and Festool for the handheld equipment such as routers, sanders, etc.

From what I have think I learned is that when it comes to a brand name for a MIG welder; those made by Miller, Lincoln, and Hobart appear to make the better quality equipment as opposed to say those from Harbor Freight. I am sure there are other manufacturers that make equivalent quality equipment but those 3 seem to be at the forefront.
I have pretty much decided I want a 220 volt machine simply because I have it available in my garage and I don’t want to short change myself if I have to weld something in the 3/16” range. Since I don’t intend to do a lot of welding, a smaller used machine would probably suit my needs and by buying a used machine, save myself a few bucks I could spend on other equipment on my wish list.

I have found a couple of used machines that appear that they would suit my requirements. One is a Miller Auto Arc XLT 165 and the other a Lincoln Pro Mig 175. From what I could learn, the Miller is about 10years old and the Lincoln is 2 years old. It appears that the original typical pricing of the Miller was a couple hundred more than the Lincoln for some reason I am unsure of since hey appear to be of similar specifications and capabilities.
I don’t think I could go wrong with either of the two but the Miller is $150 less than the Lincoln.

I guess after all of my long winded prelude, the questions I have boils down to these: Am I correct in my thinking these would both be a good choices for a general purpose home use machine and does either have an advantage over the other?

Thanks all in advance for even reading this post.

Warmest Regards,
John S

I just bought a Hobart Handler 187. I just needed to install a 30amp breaker in the panel and pop in a recepticle with 10 gauge wire for it. Check NEC for proper wiring. It makes very nice easy welds. I use the CO2 gas with it. I have been welding 1/8 to 1/4 steel. It just takes a little practice, and learning how to set the voltage and wire speed with various metal thickness. No complaints about it.

[nctox]

The Hobart Handler 210, with spoolgun for $899 at Northern Tool is a great welder for a good price. If you ever want to attempt aluminum welding, this package will save you lots vs the HH187.

[Broccoli1]

Originally Posted by JohnS

I have found a couple of used machines that appear that they would suit my requirements. One is a Miller Auto Arc XLT 165 and the other a Lincoln Pro Mig 175. From what I could learn, the Miller is about 10years old and the Lincoln is 2 years old. It appears that the original typical pricing of the Miller was a couple hundred more than the Lincoln for some reason I am unsure of since hey appear to be of similar specifications and capabilities.
I don’t think I could go wrong with either of the two but the Miller is $150 less than the Lincoln.

I guess after all of my long winded prelude, the questions I have boils down to these: Am I correct in my thinking these would both be a good choices for a general purpose home use machine and does either have an advantage over the other?

Thanks all in advance for even reading this post.

Warmest Regards,
John S

The Auto Arc is a Miller branded machine marketed towards body shops and just priced higher for some reason- perhaps since body shops would buy on account.

The Lincoln ProMig 175 was sold at Box Stores.

You can still get parts for both so that won't be a problem if anything breaks.

general Home use- correct, either machine would be ok.

What $ amount are they listed for on CL?

[Broccoli1]

Originally Posted by marchboom

I'm also in the market for a 220 elder and it's between the Lincoln SP-180T, the Millermatic 180 with Auto-set and the Hobart Handler 187. I'm leaning towards the Miller but am wondering if the auto-set feature really works well? I have done some gas and arc welding but that was 40 yrs ago. I looking for something that give me easy quality welds.

The Auto Set feature does work but all three of those machines CAN give you quality welds.

[Pookie]

Looks like you have set some goals of what you need the machine to do.

When I got started back welding, I ran all the future projects through my head, and couldn't come up with anything that would be larger than 1/4" material. Most falls into the 1/8 and 3/16 range. However, I knew that it was possible that I could be welding 1/4" from time to time. I went with a machine that would go one step above that...just in case.

I chose the Miller 210. Miller because it is what I consider the best, and the 210 because it will weld up to 3/8" material in a single pass, should I ever need to. I have been 100% satisfied with my choice. In the three years I have had this machine, I have not encountered anything above 1/4" material.

[wb4rt]

Hey, JohnS - welcome to the forum.
It certainly sounds like you have done your homework, and I think you are on your way to making a good decision. Many of us bought a 110v machine, only to decide to upgrade fairly quickly. Jack's recommendation on the Miller 211AS is right on, but of course while it may be a little more than your budget new, and used ones are extremely hard to find, you already know the value of a good tool. I bought the Miller 140AS and loved it, until I upgraded to the 211AS. With the 110/220v option and the spool-gun ready feature, plus the AutoSet to help you get started, I think you might save money in the long run to go for the 211AS.
Since you have the 220v already, certainly buy a welder that can utilize it. Either of the 3 brands mentioned should serve you well.
Another thing to consider, is to try to buy from your local welding shop (LWS). They likely will match or come close to an internet price if you give them the chance and they are good friends to help you with gas, helmet, etc. plus advice.

To Marchboom, the Autoset feature is very good in my opinion, especially for new welders. It will get you set to make good quality welds with minimum experience AND then allow you to manually adjust when you are ready. Keep in mind, the Autoset is for 2 wire sizes and are different on different machines. For example, the 140AS is set for .025 and.030, while the 211AS is set for .030 and .035.

[JohnS]

Whoa, from reading everyone’s kind and perceptive replies, I have to fess up and admit I scored very poorly on my pre-purchase homework. After reading the replies I immediately realized I had not grasped the “practical common sense” side of things. The real world experiences and suggestions all of you shared with me made a “subtle” adjustment to my line of thinking in what might best suit my requirements. As someone once quipped, “about as subtle as a .357 magnum”

Please forgive me if this post is a little long winded. Since so many people were kind enough to spend their valuable time to help me, the very least I can do is to try to explain just how valuable those replies were for me.

Jack and wb4rt kindly pointed out the portability advantage of a dual input voltage machine. I had read the specifications on the Millermatic 211 but skimmed over the dual input voltage explanation because I didn’t (at the time) think I would have any need for portability.

My wife and I got home late the night I started this thread because I had promised my wife I would help a couple of people with some small odds and ends that afternoon. Sometimes those “little” things take much more time than I had planned. It just happened that I was reading the posts from Jack and wb4rt on the dual voltage machines and their portability when my wife made a remark about how much time we spend lending a hand to people.

These are usually simple small things they can’t get done on their own because of their age or health or simply because they don’t have the tools or equipment required. That’s when it occurred to me that portability would be a very welcome addition. I remember an older couple that had some broken steel railing foot mounts along the steps up to their house. I ended up with a much bigger chore of installing new railings. I am sure if I think back I could count up many times a small weld here or there could have saved me a lot of extra effort.

Technoid mentioned the Hobart Handler 187. Actually I was very seriously looking at that machine too. I simply forgot to list it in my original post. That suggestion kind of added to my confidence I was thinking correctly on what type of a machine to purchase. I had done a lot of reading on that particular machine and people seem to rate it very highly.

Marchboom wrote he was also looking for advice too and that he hadn’t done any welding in the last 40 years. No offense intended but I assume you weren’t in 1st grade at the time. So it kind of feels good to know I am not the only fellow in the parking lot with gray hair looking to take up a new challenge.

Welding aluminum had crossed my mind but I originally sort of set that off as a bridge to cross in the future. But borrowing the thoughts from nctox on Hobart Handler 210 with the spool gun and wb4rt’s, Burt’s and Jack’s on the Miller 211AS with a spool gun as well, it kind of crossed my mind that perhaps I should look very seriously at acquiring both at the same time. I wouldn’t have the dual voltage portability with the Hobart but it appears that option with the Miller is around $300 more.

Broccoli1’s question of pricing on CL got me comparing pricing of new versus used. If one considers warranty terms, service, ready availability of spare parts as well as consumables, it doesn’t seem that there is any real cost advantage from buying used on CL. I certainly haven’t seen any real bargains. In truth, I see far more of what I would consider over pricing than anything even approaching a “jump on it now” type bargain. I have seen numbers of used Harbor Freight FCAW only machines listed on CL at asking prices higher than brand new retail prices at the stores. I have also seen some older machines that were in great condition but priced pretty high priced when compared to the present lineup of machines. In addition, opinions of the older though originally expensive machines were not very favorable as to their ability to make a quality weld. Perhaps that unusually high type of pricing for a used machine was based by the seller on the original list price. Somewhere I thought I had read MIG welding didn't start growing to a larger scale of machine production along with a larger quantity of machines being put into the workplace until somewhere near 30 years ago. In these times, new and improved machines were released quite frequently along with price reductions in line with the increasing quality of the machines.

I think I have kind of boiled my thoughts down to strongly favoring buying new, either the Hobart HH210 or the Miller 211AS, both with spool guns and preferably at a local dealer. I guess I ended up with a selection a little higher in price than my original thoughts but sometimes it is just simply worth paying the extra and get what you think suits your needs the best (with the input of real users). http://www.weldingweb.com/images/smilies/blush2.gif

This exercise reminds me of when my old framing saw finally burned up. I didn’t use the saw for framing but rather for cutting down 4’x8’ sheets of plywood to more easily carry into my basement woodshop. Then I made the finish cuts on my Delta Unisaw. My next hand held saw was a Festool T-55 plunge cut saw with the guide rail. I found the cuts made with the T-55 rivaled those made by my Unisaw. So for all practical purposes, I am often able to skip the step of rough cutting with the T-55 and making many of the finish cuts with the it. The T-55 Festool is relatively expensive but in my opinion you get what you pay for when buying from the quality manufacturers. But as with any type of quality tools, as you approach the top of the line, you don’t get the same bang for the buck.

Just some quick final thoughts I haven’t found an answer to.

Can one use a spool gun interchangeably with mild steel wire or is extensive cleaning of the spool gun required? I think I recall reading that it is possible to use a machine such as the Hobart 187 with aluminum wire directly fed through the standard torch cord provided the torch cord is kept relatively straight such that the chances of bird nesting would be lessened. But if steel wire was previously used in the torch cord, the lubricant from the outside of the steel wire would seem to require that in addition to the roller feed assembly being thoroughly cleaned, I am assuming a new liner would also have to be installed in the torch cord since it appears impractical to myself to clean the lubricant from the liner.

My most sincere thanks to everyone that pitched in to guide me along. This was a very enlightening thread for me.

My Warmest Regards to All,
John S

[PapaLion]

So glad to see a fella who has longer posts than mine. can it be... sheesh. I like the Lincolns the best but Miller has such a strong reputation here and with my friends that you cannot miss there either. Sounds like you have the same addiction/obsession as many fellas here including me, tools... any quality tools. I betcha the first fella who picked up a rock to hammer something had a friend watching who then walked the river bed for a bit... to find the BEST rock for the job We are his sons I guess Welcome fellow tool addict, no 12 step here atall.

*please note my signature for clarity if needed.

enjoy.

[DSW]

I agree with the others the MM211 is a great machine, and probably one of the best options for the hobbyst. It would be my choice in a small machine simply because of the 110v/220v option. Like any compromise machine you give up something to get the 110v/220v option. The machine is a bit heavier than the smaller 110v only machines as far as portability, and lacks the duty cycle of some of the slightly bigger 220v only machines. To me the ability to do light gauge repairs up to 1/8" at other locations on 110v, and have the ability to do up to 3/8" at home on 220v is well worth the minor disadvantages.

As far as the spoolgun, yes you can change wires without having to do major cleaning. It's one of the advantages of the spoolgun. You can keep the main machine loaded with .030 or .035 solid wire and then use .024 wire, alum, Stainless or even FC (though I try not to run FC thru mine if I can avoid it). If I ran primarily solid wire of FC thru mine however, I might just look into a spare liner just for alum if the job was critical.

90% of all the work I do with my spoolgun is alum. I do keep a few asst rolls of other wire on hand for places where the spoolgun is better suited than the standard gun. Probably the majority of the work the spoolgun does with steel is .024 wire for sheetmetal. I don't need that much, but it's a lot easier than changing the big roll in the machine for a small quick job. I've never had any issues running the one liner for everything.


Oh and I agree the Festool saw's awsome to use. A friends got one and it's on my short list. Much easier for trimming the custom cabinet panels and sheets on site than the table saw, especially for cutting angles to match stairs and such.

[Rbeckett]

John, commendations on the homework. It appears that with some minor guidance you have seen the light and are headed to a very nice tool indeed. If you continue at the present rate you will be caught up with the rest of us gray heads in no time. One thought to consider that I did not see you address is the fact, that if you do get a spool gun for Alunimum you will need a bottle of 100% argon in addition to the pure CO2 or 75/25 you will use with the MIG. IfI am not mistaken the MM211 and the HH210 both come equiped with dual gas solenoids and gun on demand, so all you need is the gas and a reg to go on the dual cylinder rack that is available as an option. Other than that you seem to have the other issues well in hand, and welcome to the forum.
Bob

[Broccoli1]

Originally Posted by Rbeckett

IfI am not mistaken the MM211 and the HH210 both come equiped with dual gas solenoids and gun on demand, so all you need is the gas and a reg to go on the dual cylinder rack that is available as an option.
Bob

Neither one of those machines is Gun On Demand nor is there a Dual Cylinder rack-
Only For the MM212 and up

They mention "Dual" only in regards to the Dual gauge regulator- and that is just the regular ol' Gauge.


You have to remove the Regular Whip and then install the Spool Gun.

[JohnS]

Hey PaPaLion,

I love the rock analogy and the signature line

Shortly after we got married, my wife started asking me “How many tools do you need?” Honestly, I can’t understand why she keeps asking me the same old question. I have told her countless times that I only need one more

Off topic:
BTW, here is a link to a video of a machine has the potential to be one of the largest DC arc welders around. You’ll see me toward the end of the video at the bottom right. I am in the orange flame retardant jacket.

http://www.youtube.com/user/MyOhioSt...12/eZNFcZAd6Os

Seriously though, dealing with things like this were/are part of my real life profession. I like and respect large equipment and powerful equipment. This incident was caused by a component failure in a 1970’s vintage drive system. A 10 cent nut had come loose on a wire stud. After my wife saw the video and realized this was a small part of what I really did for a living (instead of just sitting behind a computer writing software), she started egging me on to retirement.

I had a family of red foxes living under my backyard shed this spring. For fun I made this video with a quality camera. Just shows why I like quality equipment of all kinds.

http://www.youtube.com/user/MyOhioStuff

Warmest Regards,
JohnS

[JohnS]

Originally Posted by Rbeckett

John, commendations on the homework. It appears that with some minor guidance you have seen the light and are headed to a very nice tool indeed. If you continue at the present rate you will be caught up with the rest of us gray heads in no time. One thought to consider that I did not see you address is the fact, that if you do get a spool gun for Alunimum you will need a bottle of 100% argon in addition to the pure CO2 or 75/25 you will use with the MIG. IfI am not mistaken the MM211 and the HH210 both come equiped with dual gas solenoids and gun on demand, so all you need is the gas and a reg to go on the dual cylinder rack that is available as an option. Other than that you seem to have the other issues well in hand, and welcome to the forum.
Bob

I have all of the folks in this group to thank for keeping me on track. I am an electrical type by profession but have had the opportunity to work alongside master craftsman welders. Their work was a thing of beauty as much as strength and practicality. I have seen them perform some "magic" by running a string on a steel plate or junior I-beam to intentionally straighten or distort the material according to the application requirements. Amazing what those craftsmen could do.

I am aware of primarily using the two types of gas mixes as well as the 100% CO2 as perhaps being some little less commonly used. But beyond that, I didn't do my homework. I hadn't given thought to a dual solenoid arrangement or even the CGA cylinder thread standards for each type of gas. Something I am going to have to look up later this evening.

My Warmest Regards and Thanks for the "Heads Up",
JohnS

[ironwerker]

There's nothing wrong with ordering your machine online. Check prices at your local welding supply and online. I called 3 local shops for prices and ended up ordering it online and saved $165.00 it shipped straight from Miller, free shipping and no tax. If you know what you want and your ready to buy. If your not sure your local shop can help.

[Rbeckett]

Ooops, sorry John Broccoli is right, you will need to go to a slightly bigger welder to get the gun on demand feature. I have it on my MM210 and it is a very nice feature if you are interested in doing Ally. Otherwise you will have to change the whip and swap the gas, but still not a deal killer other than a little change over time. Scary welding machine!!! How much damage was done by the loose nut? Looked like a lot of stuff being blown off in the video, Better you then me.
Bob

[dugndeep]

MM 211 is my choice at the moment,the dual voltage

[JohnS]

Originally Posted by Rbeckett

Ooops, sorry John Broccoli is right, you will need to go to a slightly bigger welder to get the gun on demand feature. I have it on my MM210 and it is a very nice feature if you are interested in doing Ally. Otherwise you will have to change the whip and swap the gas, but still not a deal killer other than a little change over time. Scary welding machine!!! How much damage was done by the loose nut? Looked like a lot of stuff being blown off in the video, Better you then me.
Bob

Hi Bob,
In the video, that was some copper from the generator commutator, carbon brush pieces, and brass from the brush holders going up in flames. In the industry we say the machine “flashed over” or simply the machine “flashed”. There were too many times I called home to tell my wife I wouldn’t be home on time because the “so & so” motor or generator flashed. On other occasions the phone would ring and I would drop whatever I was doing or jump out of bed, tell my wife “I gotta run, they flashed the (so & so) motor or generator at (whoever called)”. Typical rebuild costs are around $500,000. Only 5 minutes before the flash, I was standing within a couple feet of the commutator watching the commutation and listening for brush chatter. For all those years, my wife had never visualized what a flash really was. Once she saw the video, she started nagging me to retire. Now that I have, I realize she was right, again

BTW, I settled on the Millermatic 211. I was treading water and probably would have later discovered the error of my ways. Without the very kind perceptive guidance from everyone here, I know I would have been unhappy later.

What started me off in quest of a MIG was difficulties repairing (with my old 230 amp stick welder) a broken trailer fender (still not done). On day 1, my extremely old hood broke. I had mildly flashed myself before when the old hood didn’t drop as I struck the arc. I am now in love with auto darkening. I never knew those things existed.

Then I had to drop my car off at my Brother-in-Law’s garage so he could repair some emissions controls. While I was there, I toyed around with his Matco MIG and simply fell in love with MIG welding. Right there I said to myself, I gotta have one of these things.

Then came the fun part, or so I thought. Do a little quick reading and go pick one up from CL. I was so wrong on that. Thankfully I ended up here pleading for help and got it. Yes, I do write too much. Fingers away from the keyboard after I hit submit.

Thanks again to everyone!!!!!!
JohnS

[Rbeckett]

Hey John I gotta tell ya that welding is a great addiction. I have had it for a while and I started out just the same as you, getting cheap used junk from Ebay and CL. I finally started getting some better stuff and immediately the little trinkets and stuff I was toying with became much better and I was able to do much heavier material. Glad your with us and survived the flash overs too. I can warn ya though, the addiction will get bigger as time goes on, I got a CNC Plasma table a while back and I am hooked now for sure. But hey, I'll never go to jail for this even if somebody turns me in on a bad day!!!! SO welcome to WW again, and if ya can get the wife involved it is much easier to get the new stuff when ya want it. Mine welds and runs the Plasma machine and it helps a bunch with those, "Gee a new______ would sure be cool, what do ya think honey?" moments......Good luck!!!!
Bob