Question about 5356 filler rod.

[disepyon]

So my friend ask me to build him a replacement air coolant separator tank for his car from the plastic one. Ive already made it,
but now i am really doubting myself on the filler rod to be used. I built the tank out of aluminum, dont remember what type of
aluminum it is, but got it from my local metal supermarket, so im guessing its a common grade. Used 3/32 5356 filler rod to tig
weld with. The plating thickness is 1/8". I guess my question is since my friend uses his car to race, the temperature of the
tank is going to get hot, i guess well over 250F, will the filler rod i welded with hold up? i really didnt think about it till after i made
it, which is dumb, but sometimes you have to learn the hard way.

Here is a picture of what it looks like.




Thanks,
Brent

[JLE-ENT.]

5356 is rated to 150 degrees if I recall correctly, which would put it outside of your parameters but I can't swear to this. I do know that the 5xxx fillers are more ductile than the 4xxx fillers are, allowing more flexibility. I hope I have helped somewhat, but as I said, I'm not 100% positive on the temperature limit. I would like a second opinion to be safe...

[JLE-ENT.]

Oh, by the way Brent, nice looking welds...

Jeremy

[zapster]

Looks good to me..

I would have used 4043..
I was taught 5356 is for anything to do with castings..
If a billett part was to be welded to a cast part then 5356 is OK..
All billett is 4043.
(5356 if annodized afterwards no matter what it is)


That's my story and I'm sticking with it.



...zap!

[disepyon]

JLE-ENT.
Thanks

Zapster
Thanks for giving me that information. Man i really had my rods backwards. I thought 5356 is more for billet and 4043 was more for casting, but now i know.

So would any of you say that this tank ok to what i described?

[yorkiepap]

Hey Brent,
It would appear that Jeremy is correct regarding service temps over 150*. The higher Mg content of 5356 will cause "stress corrosion cracking" with the higher temps. A better suited filler would have been 5554 with a Mg content less than 3%. You may have to make another....

Denny

[disepyon]

Hey Denny,

Yeah i think you and Jeremy and zap are right, i may have to remake another one

Found this to help me out as well.
http://www.alcotec.com/us/en/support...on_Chart-2.pdf
http://www.alcotec.com/us/en/support...ata-Sheets.cfm

[MoonRise]

5356 or any other aluminum alloy (filler or base material in the 5xxx family) with a magnesium content of 3% or greater is susceptible to stress-corrosion cracking if exposed to sustained or long term temperatures over 150F.

Sounds like a redo.

btw, the mention of filler 5554 would only really apply for use with a base material of 5454.

For all 5xx alloys except 5052, you should NOT use 4xxx fillers as the weld bead will then form brittle Mg2Si intermetallics. 5052 can usually be welded with either 4043 or 5356 filler.

[jakesporting]

I would run it i dont think you will have any problems with it at all.

This past year i built a box for coolant lines to adapt to a radiator hose and used 5356
for the filler and there are no problems with it .

There are alot of people that use 5356 for sheet aluminum including myself .

[disepyon]

Well here is the new tank i have welded so far, still need the weld the filler
neck and two fittings. I dont know if its just me or what, but seems like
welding with the 4043 filler rod seems to weld a bit smoother and can have
a bit more control on the puddle. This time i used 3/32 4043.

Some of the welds are a better than the first one i made and some are not,
this is as far as consistency. Just need more practice i guess, and for my
tie ends need a bit more practice too. I do have to say though i did not
contaminate the tungsten as much this time around, maybe only like 3
times compared to the first one i did, so im proud of my self for that hehe.
Im not a pro welder like alot of people on this forum, i maybe weld only at
most a few times a month so excuse my lack of knowledge of welding.

Pictures, reason its dirty looking is because of my gloves, guess i should
start wearing cleaner gloves.

[disepyon]

Originally Posted by jakesporting

I would run it i dont think you will have any problems with it at all.

This past year i built a box for coolant lines to adapt to a radiator hose and used 5356
for the filler and there are no problems with it .

There are alot of people that use 5356 for sheet aluminum including myself .

Thanks for sharing that with me, makes me feel more confident of the first tank i made. I am going to take back the first one i made and give my friend the new one im making. Not sure what ill do with it, maybe sell for very cheap and let whoever know why im selling for cheap. I have welded with 5356 in the past for various parts like a oil catch can and coolant reservoir overflow tank, but these were street cars and so far no problems with them till this day. Guess i just feel a bit better using a higher temp filler rod for a race car.

[abec]

Interseting i\ve always used 5356 filler for all my work never had a problem with it the only time i use 4043 is when i'm doing a casting repair

[MadMax31]

Hey, sweet looking beads too me...

From a pipe welders perspective....What does it matter if the temp is over 150 degrees?? Will it actually crack or fail? Ive had to work with steam in excess of 150lbs.. Which is well over 400 degrees, pipes sure move, but never crack...

Whats special about the filler rod? Just looking to broaden my knowledge beyond 5P+ haha

[A_DAB_will_do]

Aluminum's a whole different ball game, compared to welding steel. The different aluminum alloy's mechanical properties are much more sensitive to changes in chemistry than steel is; generally speaking. ESAB has a good article on selecting filler metals. I've posted a quick reference here in a past discussion for selecting the right aluminum filler metal for each series of base metal. A little searching should turn it up.

http://www.esabna.com/us/en/educatio...um-Welding.cfm

[Rojodiablo]

Disepyon, I'd have to say you are fine with that application. Many people overlook what the part will actually do when in service. Plenty of cast engine cases out there welded with 5356 and they run a lot hotter for ages than 150f. It's really a situation where a very stressed part, with many differing loads would see this as an issue. A gas tank, or coolant tank will be fine.

[WeldingMachine]

Hey, hold the phone!!
The original is PLASTIC?!?!
Don't worry about the rod too much, any will probably hold up better than the plastic.

[sn0border88]

I would also add that I have welded plenty of items that see service temps over 150F with 5356 filler and no issues. Since its a race car and not something that sees daily use its also not going to see as much stress/vibration either.

[disepyon]

Im glad to hear a lot of you say its fine. I guess i understand now that it only applies mostly to parts under a lot of load and stress. Yes the original one was plastic, kind of weird why the company would do that, guess to save money for production. Well i guess ill just let him keep the one he has and finish the new one i made and sell it perhaps. Ive welded other parts for another race car he has, but it was a drag car not a road racing car and used the 5356 rod and no problems yet, so i guess i have that to help confirm that its ok to use.

Thanks everyone for your input. I definitely learned a lot more about the rods im using and other rods.

[zapster]

Originally Posted by sn0border88

I would also add that I have welded plenty of items that see service temps over 150F with 5356 filler and no issues. Since its a race car and not something that sees daily use its also not going to see as much stress/vibration either.

I have welded beat up pistons that were cast with 5356 and the engine is still in use today!

...zap!

[Kevin Morin]

This topic isn't discussing apples to apples or properties to properties. The weld is either for higher ultimate strength of for higher stretch/elongation.

If you use any 5000 series alloy aluminum parent metal you'd have to choose the filler for either high strength or higher elongation properties. If you want the highest ductility and temperature fluctuation (elongation) then a 4043 alloy fillee can work well even if it results in a much 'weaker' strength weld.

The tensile and final yield of any 4043 weld will be a fraction of the same welded parent metal with a 5356 alloy filler. But the 50 series weld will be more rigid and will not flex or stand vibration and thermal cycling as well.

All these facts are based on the parent metal being a 5086/5083/5052 alloy sheet, bar or other billet thickness materials, and none of this is the as true when you're welding the much more common 6061 extrusions to the 50 series.

Reality has it; that even welding engineers and chemists don't know what 'mix'/alloy/final metal results when you take an unknown casting and TIG weld with either the 4043 or 5356 alloy fillers.

As a rule of thumb; I use only 5356 alloy for MIG on sheet 5086 and 5083 alloy sheets. I use the same for 6061 to 5086 where adding extrusions to hull panels.

If the work is exclusively castings like outboard repairs modifications and so on I use either 5356 or 4043 but the 5356 will return a much higher fixed rigidity based on pressed bent coupons and other tests.

If the metal is straight casting repair then the 4043 filler flows best and since the lower strength is already present in the cast- the weak link is not the weld- the parent metal is soft and weak anyway so the higher strength of the 50series fillers is no gain.

to add my anecdote to the list, I've used 5086 alloy and 5356 filler to build seafood cookers that boiled water on open camp fire flames and they're in seasonal use after nearly 40 years. Not sure what that says or proves (?) but its fact.

I've welded taken a head off of a snow machine engine, rolled the piston up and welded the hole shut and 'domed' the piston in one go, put the head back on and seen the machine roar off into the tree line at the edge of the shop yard. [TIG Lincoln 300/300 AC/ 5/32" pure tungsten at 280-300 Amps, no pulse, fixed freq (60Hz) pure argon, 10 cfh, 5356 1/8" filler.]

Cheers,
Kevin Morin