Welding Aluminum to Steel question

[jemaddux]

Long story but the Department of Justice here in California is trying to change a wording of a regulation. They want the Mags of the Ar series rifles welded to the frame as a fixed ten round rifle. After many talks with them they are saying this would be easy to do and would cost next to nothing for the consumer. My question is where would I find in writing in any welding book that it is not possible to easily do this? The Mag is mild steel and the frame is painted aluminum.

[zapster]

you CAN NOT weld aluminum to mild steel..

but i'm sure this will be challanged also..

and remember you can't weld brass to pine either...
...zap!

[LuzRD]

http://www.aws.org/wj/2005/06/038/
doesnt look cheap and easy to me.
politics as usual = }

[gnm109]

Originally Posted by jemaddux

Long story but the Department of Justice here in California is trying to change a wording of a regulation. They want the Mags of the Ar series rifles welded to the frame as a fixed ten round rifle. After many talks with them they are saying this would be easy to do and would cost next to nothing for the consumer. My question is where would I find in writing in any welding book that it is not possible to easily do this? The Mag is mild steel and the frame is painted aluminum.

I'd be happy to bid on that contract. Don't know what state of the Union you are in, but if it's anything like California, you get a contract and if you can't perform, just ask for more money.

Like the others say, I'm more or less certain that aluminum cannot be easily and inexpensively welded to steel. I've heard about some methods to do this but given the fact that we are talking about items that have already been built, it may not be practical.

I'm more interested in the loading process and weapon maintainability after the magazines are joined to the weapon. Would it still be possible to load? Does that happen through the top? If loading has to be done one round at a time, I can imagine that this would be a safety problem for an officer who was pinned down in a fire fight. As almost everyone would know, that is the purpose of separate, easily insertable magazines...so that they may be pre-loaded and easily changed in combat.

Furthermore, can the weapon still be repaired and adjusted once the magazine is fixed permanently in place?

Sounds like someone is out to lunch when it comes to welding possibilities and also weaponry. May I suggest super glue?

[jemaddux]

Originally Posted by gnm109

Sounds like someone is out to lunch when it comes to welding possibilities and also weaponry.

May I suggest super glue?

Biig time out to lunch. They said clue, epoxy and so on would not be excepted. Just a game with them.

[jemaddux]

Originally Posted by LuzRD

http://www.aws.org/wj/2005/06/038/
doesnt look cheap and easy to me.
politics as usual = }

Thanks, thats what I needed. You seem to have to show them everything in writing with pictures or they won't get it .

[halbritt]

This is new to me. I'm going to have to see what's going on in the world of ARs in California.

As far as bonding steel to aluminum is concerned, there are some epoxies that would work very well for this application. The latest copy of Machine Design has some info on this. I know that wouldn't satisfy the the CA DOJ, but it's an answer nonetheless.

It's not like the DOJ is clueless. They are trying to fix the loophole in their poorly constructed AWB ban legislation that permitted off-list lowers. It's a fairly simple thing for someone to convert an off-list lower from a fixed mag to a detachable mag firearm, which I'm sure annoys the DOJ. Requiring a non-reversible modification would essentially cripple these rifles and destroy their value.

One can get aluminum AR magazines pretty readily. Those can be welded in, but with all the anodizing, it'd be a pain.

[jemaddux]

Originally Posted by halbritt

This is new to me. I'm going to have to see what's going on in the world of ARs in California.

As far as bonding steel to aluminum is concerned, there are some epoxies that would work very well for this application. The latest copy of Machine Design has some info on this. I know that wouldn't satisfy the the CA DOJ, but it's an answer nonetheless.

It's not like the DOJ is clueless. They are trying to fix the loophole in their poorly constructed AWB ban legislation that permitted off-list lowers. It's a fairly simple thing for someone to convert an off-list lower from a fixed mag to a detachable mag firearm, which I'm sure annoys the DOJ. Requiring a non-reversible modification would essentially cripple these rifles and destroy their value.

One can get aluminum AR magazines pretty readily. Those can be welded in, but with all the anodizing, it'd be a pain.

Its getting off the subject of welding a little but:

Law enforcement officials, firearm dealers and the public should be aware that semiautomatic centerfire rifles that are modified to be temporarily incapable of accepting detachable magazines, but can be restored to accommodate detachable magazines, are assault weapons if they have any of the features listed in §12276.1(a)(1). The Department intends to exercise its power pursuant to Penal Code section 12276.5(i) to adopt regulations as “necessary or proper to carry out the purposes and intent” of California law to ban assault weapons in the state.


The new regs they are trying to adopt would make it for the only way to have it as a fixed mag would be to have it welded. We have tried to explain that this isn't possible without doing damage or making the firearm not safe for firing. Just trying to get information for them to see that this isn't going to happen.

[elvergon]

JB weld?

welll ....politics said cheap!

[383bigblock]

This smells like a Dianne Feinstein boondoggle. Besides the assault weapon ban sunset and that ban had nothing to do with safety or preventing crime. Not too many crimes have been committed that I've seen on TV where someone attached someone with a bayonet!!! or decided to shoot up a bunch of people because their stock was collapsable.

This is ludicrous and a waste of everyone's time.......sorry for the soapbox I happen to be a collector and the storage and record keeping requirements are a pain.

[halbritt]

Originally Posted by jemaddux

Law enforcement officials, firearm dealers and the public should be aware that semiautomatic centerfire rifles that are modified to be temporarily incapable of accepting detachable magazines, but can be restored to accommodate detachable magazines, are assault weapons if they have any of the features listed in §12276.1(a)(1). The Department intends to exercise its power pursuant to Penal Code section 12276.5(i) to adopt regulations as “necessary or proper to carry out the purposes and intent” of California law to ban assault weapons in the state.

This doesn't correlate with my understanding of things. It was my understanding that a magazine was considered fixed if it required tools to remove. I don't recall reading anything in California code that suggests that the ability to restore a firearm to detachable magazine configuration qualifies it as an assault weapon.

[jemaddux]

Originally Posted by halbritt

This doesn't correlate with my understanding of things. It was my understanding that a magazine was considered fixed if it required tools to remove. I don't recall reading anything in California code that suggests that the ability to restore a firearm to detachable magazine configuration qualifies it as an assault weapon.

To clear things up a little, as a part time job of mine I am a firearm dealer here in So Cal and sell the off list lowers.

The quote I gave you is new. This is what they are trying to change things to. On Aug 16 in Sacramento they are holding a hearing. If what they are trying to do goes through it "COULD" make it that the SKS, Mini 14 and so on would become AWs. The current regs state the tool and so on as you have said. Now, they are trying to change that to what I put. Thats why I needed the information on the welding. If you go to the DOJ web sight you can read what has been going on and what they are trying to change things to. I think this has gone way off welding and needs to be a little more back on track of welding.

[zapster]

well if you read the link..
it "can" be "welded" ...
but in no conventional means...

at least not now anyway for...or by anyone here ...so..


...zap!

[TiFreak]

it could be done with friction stir if it were flat but friction welding might be the way to go check out this link:
http://www.teamafw.com/material.htm

[zapster]

interesting..
thanks

i have in the past "welded" pistons to cast iron....

that gets expensive too

...zap!

[LuzRD]

Originally Posted by jemaddux

Thanks, thats what I needed. You seem to have to show them everything in writing with pictures or they won't get it .

anytime i can help stick it to the fourth reich, count me in
hope it somehow helps

Originally Posted by zapster

well if you read the link..
it "can" be "welded" ...
but in no conventional means...

at least not now anyway for...or by anyone here ...so..


...zap!

thats exaqctly what i had in mind when i posted it = }

Originally Posted by zapster

interesting..
thanks

i have in the past "welded" pistons to cast iron....

that gets expensive too

...zap!

everytime ive tried that, my rod just blows through the block . too many amps to the crank maybe?!

[zapster]

everytime ive tried that, my rod just blows through the block . too many amps to the crank maybe?!





as i spit heinekin on my monitor...

...zap!

[gnm109]

Sure hope they let me keep my M-1 Garand......now where did I put that thing....?

[halbritt]

I've read about friction welding a little bit lately in that it could be used to join dissimilar materials. I don't grok the process, though.

[spuddown]

I think the process involves liguid electricity!

[kbnit]

I followed the link, and it appears that the limitations to the experiments (zinc plating on the steel, special filler metals, etc) leads me to believe, along with the cross section photos, that they are not welding the aluminum to the steel, but rather brazing the aluminum to the zinc coating.

Friction stir welding only works with aluminum to aluminum, and it must be a butt joint.

Friction welding only works with butt joints, and they have to be rotated at speed in relationship to each other, and then upset force is applied. Not even a consideration for welding any mag to any gun I've ever seen.

I go along with the suggestion of JB weld......

[tessdad]

I do not know how it was done, but a place I once worked bought SS to Aluminum transition blocks. On one side was a section of aluminum for welding to aluminum pipe and the other side was SS. I was told they were VERY expensive, they would come in as a block (or billet, if you prefer), through holes were drilled or machined, the outside was cut to shape or machined, and the piece welded into place.
They were making cooler units for the super-colider magnets. I believe the whole project was scraped or put in mothballs. Politics, I think. Does anybody know more on this project.

[dseman]

Originally Posted by tessdad

I do not know how it was done, but a place I once worked bought SS to Aluminum transition blocks. On one side was a section of aluminum for welding to aluminum pipe and the other side was SS. I was told they were VERY expensive, they would come in as a block (or billet, if you prefer), through holes were drilled or machined, the outside was cut to shape or machined, and the piece welded into place.
They were making cooler units for the super-colider magnets. I believe the whole project was scraped or put in mothballs. Politics, I think. Does anybody know more on this project.

More than likely it was EXW or explosion welding. It's used for all types of transition materials:

http://www.dynamicmaterials.com/Divi...Weld%20Process

enjoy,
-dseman

[Injineer]

The receiver of an AR-15 is aluminum and so are most magazines for this rifle. A bigger problem would be how to load the magazine as the rounds would be very difficult to place into the magazine which is fixed to the receiver. Maybe that is what they are trying to accomplish.

[jemaddux]

Originally Posted by Injineer

The receiver of an AR-15 is aluminum and so are most magazines for this rifle. A bigger problem would be how to load the magazine as the rounds would be very difficult to place into the magazine which is fixed to the receiver. Maybe that is what they are trying to accomplish.

Its actually the other way around. Most of the mags are steal that have been powder coated. You can find some that are Aluminum, the same as you can find some plastic ones. To load all you have to do is slide to rear pin out and do what is called shotguning the rifle and the will top load very simple. And please don't turn this into a debate. I just had a question on how and if this could be done.