Brand Loyalty

[candyapple_red]

Are welders brand loyal?

I was passing through a Community College on open house day and noticed all the MIG machines were Miller but all the Arc machines were Lincoln

BIG BLUE or BIG RED ?


Guess, its like Pepsi or Coke.

[zapster]

i dont care what you put in front of me to use...

i'll make it work..

...zap!

[candyapple_red]

Zap, I guess you like Dr Pepper.

[zapster]

...zap!

[zapster]

i look at it this way...

welding machines basically do one thing...
stick various alloys of metal together..

its all in how you set it up..
just like a lathe...
they do one thing..spin and cut metal..
there are hundreds of diffrent lathes out there..
but they all do the same thing
learn one and you've learned them all....

now go figure out the diffrence...

...zap!

[MAC702]

I prefer Miller for customer service. Plus they more readily respond to the needs of the market, like the Millermatic Passport.

I buy Miller because I like consistency, too. No need to mix up the machines on my truck even when they are equal in price and quality, as they are in most cases.

I could easily and happily have a truck outfitted with all Lincoln equipment and get by ALMOST as good (I would miss the above-mentioned Passport...)

And FYI, a MIG machine is ALSO an "arc welder." We assume you meant a Stick machine. Lincoln confuses people by calling their cheap Stick machines "Arc Welders" on the front label.

[gnm109]

I don't worry about support since my big Lincoln is vintage and I'm close to SOL if it blows up. Fortunately, at the rate that I weld as a hobbyist, I seldom approach its 40% duty cycle or even close. I've yet to cause a circuit breaker to trip, either.

I bought a MIG SP175 plus recently just because I already had one Lincoln.

As to brands, the majors are all excellent. Just pick a color and go with it!

I wouldn't argue with Mac about anything due to his wealth of knowledge. Obviously, it's correct to say that both Stick and MIG are "Arc" processes...so is a TIG welding setup for that matter. That said, I tend to think of an "arc welder" as a stick welder and a MIG welder as a "wire welder". Just usage of the terms in the areas where I picked up my welding knowledge, I guess.

My 2 cents

[MAC702]

Originally Posted by gnm109

I wouldn't argue with Mac about anything due to his wealth of knowledge. That said, I tend to think of an "arc welder" as a stick welder and a MIG welder as a "wire welder". Just usage of the terms, I guess.

I agree, and I only bring it up once with a new guy and then let them use the term if they wish. One uses a stick, one uses wire, but they both use an electric arc.

The term became nearly synonymous with Stick welding because that's all most people had when it come to using electric welders instead of gas welders (oxy-fuel, etc.)

[DDA52]

I'm brand loyal, but probably not exclusively. Lincoln let me down hard 20 plus years ago. Miller picked up the slack and has taken very good care of me since. Will I buy another Linc? No. If it was given to me, that is another story. Esab and Thermal have peaked my interest as of late. As to whether or not I would actually buy a yellow or purple machine, time will tell. For now, my "fleet" is all blue.

[gnm109]

Originally Posted by DDA52

I'm brand loyal, but probably not exclusively. Lincoln let me down hard 20 plus years ago. Miller picked up the slack and has taken very good care of me since. Will I buy another Linc? No. If it was given to me, that is another story. Esab and Thermal have peaked my interest as of late. As to whether or not I would actually buy a yellow or purple machine, time will tell. For now, my "fleet" is all blue.

I'm waiting for any one of the companies to give me something.

[smithboy]

"Off" is apparently my favorite brand. My cereal is labled "CEREAL" and my soup is "SOUP." For welders, my brand is "USED." I have a millers, hobarts, and powcons, but they could just as easily be big used welders, small used welders and used wire feeders.

I could have included lincolns in that until just recently...a friend talked me out of my old ac225. That's the only welder I bought new and I never regretted it.

I have been eyeballing the htp's and the thermal arcs also...

Things I like in a welder are durability, reliability and simplicity. I like a welder to be durable enought to be handled roughly, reliable enough not to need constant attention and simple enought that I can fix it if something does go wrong. That last part is becoming tougher to find.

[TxRedneck]

Well if you ask me I would prefer Lincoln if we could go bacvk to the days of the SA 200 that actually burned good. If I could get one of them I would probably be real happy. Problem is, unless you are a pipe jockey you probably wont notice the differnce between the old and the new ones and much of what Miller puts out in the area of competition. The differnce in weight really makes a differnce on the pickup you drive. With a miller you might be able to swing a 3/4 ton or 1 ton. 1 Ton should be no problem. I know many guys with outstanding Millers with 1 tons and they haul all they need. The millers do the same job for these folks that an SA 200 would do. Exactly the same thing, if not less because the SA 200 has only two 115V aux outlets. The Millers put out a lot more aux power. The other thing is the Millers offer much better product service. I wouldnt buy a lincoln, unless it was a brand new old type SA 200. Built to the exact same specs, continental engine the works. And even then, for real its hard to justify it unless you are pipe jockey. A trailblazer will come close enough you wont know the differnce, or atleast it wont affect you. The price of gas for both the truck and the machine will. Another consideration is an SA 200 wont fit sideways in a pickup bed. To run sideways take a custom built bed. Running length wise in my opinion looses a lot of space. As far as brand loyalty, its like Ford or Dodge or Chevy or even honda or toyota. Some folks buy from whomever cuts them the best deal. Others based on looks. Or it is fuel economy. While others, its strictly brand loyalty. Some will say, well Chevy like a rock. Others will say if ya cant ram it, dodge it. Others say, whatever they say about ford. My grandad buys ford. He says he knows how to work on them having owned them for so long. My sister likes Honda because it makes good mileage and tends to get good reviews by various consumer reporting agencies. I am biased toward Dodge and the Cummins. I like the Cummins, and my Pop and Mom's Pop worked for Chrysler Corp and get employee pricing. Kinda blows during these employee pricing days, but there is still some deal and so its not a total loss. But ultimately, part of your decision has to remain if buying new in the customer service. If you are a hobbiest, it may not be as important. But if you use it often, and it sees hard service and you depend onit, you better bet your britches you need that warranty and serviceability you get from a good manufac. Anyway, just my thoughts

[Rich59]

Locally, the high school welding labs have Lincoln ac225/acdc225 stick welders, Millermatic 251 migs, and Miller plasma cutters. Tigs aren't available in all the schools the ones I have seen were Miller. The choices are purely economic.

They have grinders, chop saws, and cold saws of various brands depending on the best deal available.

The welding instructors I have taken classes from or talked with feel they get the best support for their activities from Lincoln. The Lincoln reps were the only ones willing to come out and talk to students in the Continuing Education welding courses held in the evening for adults. I enjoyed the visits by the Lincoln Reps to the classes I took and felt they made a real contribution as they had much more experience at Tig welding than most of the instructors.

When it came time to buy I got a Millermatic 175. It was the best deal from a reputable local welding supply house. I could have gone with Lincoln but it would have cost me another $100.

[Finney]

I like DDa52 took a screwing on a Lincoln machine in the late 70's and everything has been blue since. I think Miller's service is second to none. Last year while working on a large stainless job we had 3 Millers (302G, bad board) go down, I called the rep. and they overnighted us 3 machines to tide us over until they repaired the ones that went down. Every manufactor has machines that go bad, it is what they do to correct the problem that makes a differance to me. I can put the root in a bad fit (high/low) better with a pipe pro/ trailblaser/ pro300 using the arc control than I ever could using sa200/250 but thats me and not everyone will agree.

[calweld]

I have no loyalties. I have or have had Miller, Lincoln, Hobart (pre ITW), Pow-Con, Thermal Arc, Thermal Dynamics. If it will weld or cut . . .

Regarding Miller's great customer service . . . I have bought four new miller engine drives over the years, each one had problems of some sort during warranty, even one just past warranty, Miller always took care of it.
I bought two used Lincoln Commander 500's a couple years ago, five years old, aside of the factory rep informing me of a factory update (not repair) that they paid for, I have had no contact nor needed any contact or factory support from lincoln, simply because they haven't broke down!!

What's better??

[JTMcC]

Originally Posted by TxRedneck

Well if you ask me I would prefer Lincoln if we could go bacvk to the days of the SA 200 that actually burned good.

They did that about 15 years ago, when they started making the classic series.

JTMcC.

[TxRedneck]

Are they then back to the quality they used to be?

[gnm109]

Originally Posted by Finney

I like DDa52 took a screwing on a Lincoln machine in the late 70's and everything has been blue since. I think Miller's service is second to none. Last year while working on a large stainless job we had 3 Millers (302G, bad board) go down, I called the rep. and they overnighted us 3 machines to tide us over until they repaired the ones that went down. Every manufactor has machines that go bad, it is what they do to correct the problem that makes a differance to me. I can put the root in a bad fit (high/low) better with a pipe pro/ trailblaser/ pro300 using the arc control than I ever could using sa200/250 but thats me and not everyone will agree.

I hope you don't hold grudges or anything. I mean, it's only been 35 years since Lincoln apparently did something to you.

They are better than that nowadays. I think all the companies want your business. I mentioned in another thread that my Lincoln Mig came smashed when delivered by UPS from a seller on the internet. Some telephone calls to Lincoln in California and I had a new one exchanged in two days. Lincoln in California wasn't the seller. They didn't have to do anything for me. They could have referred me to the dealer or, worse yet, UPS insurance dept. They stepped up and helped me out and now I'm a happy camper. Forgive and forget, that's my motto.

I'm glad that Miller gave you three machines for loaners. I agree that's excellent service. Makes me wonder why three Miller machines went out in one week, though.


.

[halbritt]

I wouldn't say that I have any brand loyalty, but I do have brand affinity. I like Miller wire-fed products for various reasons such as availability in the used market, quality, and availability of information. I like Lincoln consumables, Hypertherm plasma cutters, and PowCon power supplies because these things have all worked well for me relative to other things that I've tried. I generally buy most things used and my selection criteria is based on quality and value. When it comes to replacing stuff, I'll usually start with what I know works well. However, I wouldn't automatically assume that a Miller engine-drive is going to be better than a Lincoln engine-drive based on my experience with Miller wire feeders.

With the advent of the Internet, I think that the type of brand loyalty that was common in years past is going to become much less important. It's really easy to do some research and determine what people like and what people don't. With tires for example, I generally go to Tire Rack's website and start out by looking at the most popular tire for a given make and model of car. That takes about three minutes and will usually result in a tire that works optimally for a given vehicle's function. Manufacturers generally go through cycles and their products can be either good or bad relative to their competitors at any given moment.

One doesn't see many T/A products at the welding supply, but I'd wager that they're doing well because of the high regard the TA185 has gotten on the Internet. Like Smithboy, I've been eyeing that one or the HTP, but probably I'll end up with the HTP because I've read (on the Internet) that it has a better low end (down to 3 amps).

[wirehunt]

I've got blue and red, they both do the job.

The job I'm on ATM has both colours in engine driven, the red ones have had a bad run (not many hours on the clock) but the service has been great, including loan machines. So long as down time is kept to a minimum that's all that matter's, I think.


Stephen

[Finney]

gnm109,
yes I do hold grudges, I know that is wrong but that is just me. The company bought 9 new 302G Trailblaser's for that job. They were the first of that series out of the factory and all of them had a board problem. Like I said they sent use 3 and came to the job and changed out all the boards without any time lost. I like the Trailblaser due to it being multifunction,AC/DC stick & tig, plus running wire feeders.

[MAC702]

It's not so much holding a grudge as you've just never been burned by the people you chose to replace the first ones who did burn you. No need to go back, whether they've changed or not.

[DDA52]

That is the way I see it as well. Why go back when your every need is being handled? If it ain't broke..........

[JTMcC]

Originally Posted by TxRedneck

Are they then back to the quality they used to be?

What is the "quality" problem with those "bad" pipeliners? And what are you basing your opinion on? Internet experts? or personal experience?
The general consensus among pipeliners is that the older generators have that nice super soft, super happy arc. This pertains to downhill pipe welders only, I don't think there is a a structural hand on the planet that could tell the difference.
The finest downhill pipe welds I've ever laid eyes on were made in Nevada by a friend of mine in 2001 on 38" .500 wall pipe with a '82 pipeliner, aluminum and all, and that machine was burning 4 quarts of oil in a 12 hour day. Slick, shiney and pure d bad to the bone can't tell the top from the bottom pipelining badass caps with no repairs.

JTMcC.

Long story short, amoung the people that make their living with these machines, there are no "bad" years.

[Finney]

My opinion is based on personal experience. Married in 1977, bought a house. I was welding on utility lines. I passed mainline test and scraped up enough money and bought a new SA200 and a 1973 1ton Chevy truck in the spring of 1978. By lunch time fine adjustment wide open on the next to highest heat range. By dark highest heat range and fine adjustment wide open. Within 3 weeks by 3 in the afternoon it was so cold you could not weld. Cost me a job. Dealer told me it was out of warrenty, warrenty started at the date of manufactor. Called Lincoln, no help. I had to go back to welding on utility lines for about 1/3 of the money I was making on the main line. In a couple of years I finialy saved enough and traded the SA to a Big20 Miller and went back on the main line. After about 7,000hrs and 2 engine rebuilds I sold it to a fab shop where it is still running. That is what my opinion is based on.