Adapter plug....

[73AMC]

I looked under the buss bar with the white wire from the range and there is nothing underneath. It just is clamped into the buss bar. Im starting to get concerned.

[duaneb55]

For the record, I consider this exercise just a clarification effort and I have to say there's not much reason for concern as there is obviously a connection between the right buss bar and the neutral coming in from the outside as you have active neutrals there. That connection is either a right buss bar mounting screw or wire running between the two bars.

[duaneb55]

How is the range neutral clamp secured to the right buss bar?

[73AMC]

Originally Posted by duaneb55

How is the range neutral clamp secured to the right buss bar?

Is the white wire neutral? If yes, then the buss bar has a set screw the you loosen shove the wire in and its cranked down on.

[duaneb55]

Yes, that's the range circuit neutral. Is there a buss bar mounting screw thru the bottom of the clamp under the wire? Pull the wire out and completely remove the set screw to see it - if it's there.

[73AMC]

Originally Posted by duaneb55

Yes, that's the range circuit neutral. Is there a buss bar mounting screw thru the bottom of the clamp under the wire? Pull the wire out and completely remove the set screw to see it - if it's there.

No, I dont have to even pull it out to see that.

[duaneb55]

OK, understood.

Is the clamp part of the buss bar or fastened to it? If fastened to it, does the fastener go all the way thru to the box?

If the clamp is part of the bar, is there a fastener at the top of the buss bar that goes thru it into the box?


Again, I didn't mean to make you concerned but rather allow you to understand what exactly is going on with your breaker panel. I still agree with Ed that nothing has to change and this is just an effort to clarify how the neutral is being established.

[73AMC]

Originally Posted by duaneb55

OK, understood.

Is the clamp part of the buss bar or fastened to it? If fastened to it, does the fastener go all the way thru to the box?

If the clamp is part of the bar, is there a fastener at the top of the buss bar that goes thru it into the box?


Again, I didn't mean to make you concerned but rather allow you to understand what exactly is going on with your breaker panel. I still agree with Ed that nothing has to change and this is just an effort to clarify how the neutral is being established.

The clamp is part of the buss bar.

Im sorry for the poor terminology here, but that buss bar is corralled between 2 plastic L brackets. Now the brackets are bolted to the back of the box but the plastic separates the buss bar from the box. There is no continuity between the bar and the panel that I can see.

[duaneb55]

No need to apologize. I'm just attempting to figure out how the neutral is being established on the right bar so you'll know.

[73AMC]

I wish I could be more help, but nothing stands out to me as far as the 2 buss bars being tied together. My main concern is I don't want to fry my 1100 dollar in investment.

[duaneb55]

As long as the existing black wires are connected to the two angled receptacle cavities of the range outlet and you carry them thru to the two straight blade cavities of the 6-50R receptacle of your extension cord, you won't fry the MM211. in fact, there's no neutral required and the earth ground (third pin) is there for safety reasons in case either hot leg makes contact with the welder housing.

So, as long as you have 240V +/- between the straight blades of the 6-50R when you're done, the machine will run.

At this point, I'm just curious how that right buss bar is connected to neutral/earth ground.

[73AMC]

Originally Posted by duaneb55

As long as the existing black wires are connected to the two angled receptacle cavities of the range outlet and you carry them thru to the two straight blade cavities of the 6-50R receptacle of your extension cord, you won't fry the MM211. in fact, there's no neutral required and the earth ground (third pin) is there for safety reasons in case either hot leg makes contact with the welder housing.

So, as long as you have 240V +/- between the straight blades of the 6-50R when you're done, the machine will run.

At this point, I'm just curious how that right buss bar is connected to neutral/earth ground.

You're saying that is has to be connected somewhere for things to powered, correct? Maybe Im just over looking something. But if it wasnt connected somewhere, would I still have power?

I have been running my 220v IR compressor off this circuit for years now with out issue. Im just as curious as you are. I want my stuff to be legit.

[Broccoli1]

What duanne is saying is that the ground doesn't have to be connected for the receptacle to have power- like you have noticed since you've run the Compressor w/o incident.

ONLY if you have a fault would there be a problem since there is no path for the Fault to take back to the source.

The Ground and Neutral (Grounded conductor) gets techy and there are reasons they are bonded at the Main and separate at a Sub Panel.

The Panel in your photo seems lightly loaded with Circuits to be the Main- unless it feeds a sub panel with more circuits to the house.

[duaneb55]

It (white neutral wire) only needs to be connected at the receptacle and in the box to provide the neutral for 115V between the center neutral lug (straight) and either hot leg (angled) of the typical range outlet. This arrangement would provide the proper hot and neutral for any control, clock, lights, etc circuits found in an electric range/oven.

Not to confuse the issue but that was the old way for ranges/ovens with 115V requirements. Current NEC requires a 4-wire arrangement that provides two hots (for 230V between the two) and seperate neutral (for 115V between the neutral and either hot legs) and safety ground conductors for range/oven applications where 115V is required.


Back to the welder application - a neutral is NOT required for the welder BUT the center lug of the 6-50plug/receptacle is the safety ground that would connect to the earth ground buss bar in the breaker box. Any 115V (or lower) needs for the welder are handled by the main transformer in the unit. On the welder end, the safety ground connects to the chassis of the welder so that if either hot leg shorted to welder housing, the circuit breaker would trip rather than just making the welder housing "hot" and waiting for you to complete the circuit to ground to light up your life.


Soooo. . . as I stated before, I'm just puzzled as to how the connection is being made the two buss bars in the breaker box to provide proper neutral and safety grounds. If you are concerned about it as you've indicated, you could have it looked at by a licensed electrician who could not only confirm how it's being done but show you as well and make sure everything else is in proper order.

[duaneb55]

Welcome back Ed.

Breaker boxes that I'm familiar with typically have one buss bar permanently connected to the box (usually by way of one or more mounting fasteners) and the other with a removable bonding screw/lug/strap to accomodate and comply with the requirements of a main service entrance or a branch application. The lack of an obvious connection between the two bars is what has me puzzled here.

[73AMC]

Originally Posted by Broccoli1

What duanne is saying is that the ground doesn't have to be connected for the receptacle to have power- like you have noticed since you've run the Compressor w/o incident.

ONLY if you have a fault would there be a problem since there is no path for the Fault to take back to the source.

The Ground and Neutral (Grounded conductor) gets techy and there are reasons they are bonded at the Main and separate at a Sub Panel.

The Panel in your photo seems lightly loaded with Circuits to be the Main- unless it feeds a sub panel with more circuits to the house.

It does feed a sub panel in my home.

[73AMC]

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q...3/797c0ec4.jpg

Just for giggles...

[bigb]

It would be entirely possible for the neutrals to function on the right bus bar if it were not bonded, and I have seen it happen. If there is anything connected to the gas or water pipes like a furnace or water heater, and if it is also grounded to that bus, the neutral current will have a path back to the transformer, and as long as the path is low resistance, the other circuits will function normally. In one case that I saw an inexperienced individual had added 3 branch circuits to a sub panel and landed the neutrals on the grounding bus. It just so happened that this sub panel was using the emt raceway as the grounding path. The circuits worked normally until the emt separated on the roof. At that point the homeowner reported shocks while taking a shower, and at one point smoke coming from a hole where the gas pipe from the range passed thru the ceiling and was touching some metal lath. We found scorch marks at the conduit entries around the lock nuts where the neutral current had been passing. Current was taking all available paths including the #12 grounding wire back to the furnace which was connected to the gas which was connected to the water heater and the water pipes and eventually to the main service neutral.

So it can happen, hopefully it is not the case here. I certainly cannot see any indication of a bond on that right side bus.

[duaneb55]

That all makes sense bigb and perhaps a good reason for 73AMC to have a licensed electrician give the box a once over looksee. Just to be sure . . .



. . . and to satisfy my curiosity.

[73AMC]

Can I just bond it and be done with it?

[73AMC]

I'm kind of glad I asked, but am concerned how much THIS is gunna cost me. I just wanna weld, LOL!

[Broccoli1]

Move the White wire for this receptacle over to the bus bar that has those 2 bigger bare "ground" wires on the left and you'll be fine.

You still need a Sparky to come out and take a look at that Panel.

The Ground being bonded to the Neutral is what allows the Circuit to open when a fault occurs.

Ground inna earth is not for Ground Fault protection.

The fault travels through the Ground wire and meets up with the Neutral (since they are bonded) and back to the Pole/Transformer.

[73AMC]

ugh...

[duaneb55]

Originally Posted by 73AMC

I'm kind of glad I asked, but am concerned how much THIS is gunna cost me. I just wanna weld, LOL!

Well, you could contact the county/city/town inspector and tell them you want to hook up a receptacle for a welder, have a concern regarding your electrical service entrance and are looking for some guidance to do it right.

When he/she is there you can raise the question of the neutral-to-earth ground bonding BUT you need to be prepared to address anything that needs to be done to correct any issues if you go that route.

[bigb]

The knowledge of many inspectors and even some electricians is lacking when it comes to understanding bonding and grounding. Here is what you can do IF this is indeed the main panel, meaning it is the FIRST disconnect after the meter. If there is a disconnect outside before this one then everything changes. So if you are sure this is the main, go ahead and shut it down. (Be careful as the main wires coming in and the lugs on the main breaker will still be hot.) Then take a piece of #4 solid copper wire and bend it and shape it and install it from one bus to the other. Bend it so it sits along the bottom of the panel, away from the breakers. Now there is no doubt, the two bus bars are bonded. ONLY do this if you are comfortable working in there and ONLY if you are positive this panel contains the first disconnect.