Gas Welding Aluminum . . . . .

[Markopolo]

OK, I waited a long time to say this, because I wanted to make absolutely sure I couldn't do it....

"You cannot oxy-acetylene weld aluminum" !

I've tried and tried....different size tips, different filler rods, different fluxes, ....ALWAYS CRAP ! !

I can braze it beautifully, using Aladdin 3 in 1, or HTS 2000, or even plan ol' 4043.....and I can stick weld it nice too, (with Eutectic-Castolin 4021)......

But when I try to gas-weld it........BLAH ! ! ! (it just crumples into a heap).

http://www.tinmantech.com/html/faq__...over_tig_.html

[Brainfarth]

What about Jesse James and his first episode? Wasn't he working aluminum tanks with gas?

[Rocky D]

Originally posted by Markopolo
OK, I waited a long time to say this, because I wanted to make absolutely sure I couldn't do it....

"You cannot oxy-acetylene weld aluminum" !

I've tried and tried....different size tips, different filler rods, different fluxes, ....ALWAYS CRAP ! !

I can braze it beautifully, using Aladdin 3 in 1, or HTS 2000, or even plan ol' 4043.....and I can stick weld it nice too, (with Eutectic-Castolin 4021)......

But when I try to gas-weld it........BLAH ! ! ! (it just crumples into a heap).

You can oxy/ acetylene weld aluminum. It needs to be clean, and fluxed. The rod needs to have flux on it also. You can use aluminum arc rod for filler, too. It is difficult due to the brightness of the flux burning, and you can't really see when it becomes hot enough to dip the rod. When you finally get it hot enough to dip, then go like a bat out of hades. Keep the rod in the puddle. It takes a lot of practice, perseverance and patience. One you get it, tho, it's easy.

[Markopolo]

Thanks Rocky.....I'll keep trying.... *sigh*

[Franz]

Marko, are you sure you'r trying to weld one of the aluminum alloys that is gas weldable?

[Markopolo]

Franz, I have NO idea what alloy it is. It's the stock you can buy at hardware stores.....angle, flat bar, rod......that stuff.

I'm using Welco #10 flux.

[Franz]

Marko, I'd certainly deferr to the Herbivor's expertise on aluminum, but I'm wondering if you aren't starting with an alloy that can't be O/A welded.
You can always use the tried & true Herbivor methods of joining it though, either rivet it or glue it.

[Markopolo]

DAMN IT FRANZ . . .where's yer' sense of adventure ?

ANYONE can glue or rivet.....If someone out there is telling me that Aluminum can be O/A welded, I'm gonna' make it my personal mission to figure out how to do it !

[Markopolo]

Rocky D....(or anyone else that knows)....You said I could use Aluminum stick electrode as filler for gas welding.......

Do I break the flux off and use only the bare metal, or should I leave the flux on and use "as is" ?

[Rocky D]

Originally posted by Markopolo
Rocky D....(or anyone else that knows)....You said I could use Aluminum stick electrode as filler for gas welding.......

Do I break the flux off and use only the bare metal, or should I leave the flux on and use "as is" ?

Yeah, you can use it...leave the flux on.

[enlpck]

I will make a guess, based on what is available in both the local HW stores and the Orange place, that the material you have is 6061. This is quite a common alloy for bar and angle, as it has good strength, cuts and machines easily, and is weldable. Doesn't bend real sharp without cracking, tho. Often in the T6 condition (full heat reated) so loses some strength when welded. None of the references I have at home indicate if it is gas weldable or not, but it is arc weldable, even by me (I rarely weld Al and am at best sufficient).

[Markopolo]

Thanks enlpck.......I can arc weld it quite nicely with stick.
I don't have a tig, and when I went to my welding guy and asked if I could do it with my hh135, he started talking about spool guns, different gas, yada, yada, yada.........$$$$$$
(I figure he needed to make a boat payment).

This latest little tag i'm on is trying to weld it with oxy/acetylene.

I've heard it CAN be !.....my mission: TO LEARN HOW TO DO IT !

When I'm old and cantankerous, and "newbies" say "it can't be done"...I want to be the one to say: "Yes it can... ya' just gotta' know how" !

[Rocky D]

Marko. how thick is this stuff you're tryig to weld? Oxy Acetylene works real good on 14ga and thinner.

Originally posted by Brainfarth
What about Jesse James and his first episode? Wasn't he working aluminum tanks with gas?

that was steel

Guys, the weldable aluminum alloys are 1100, 2219, 3003, 5052, 5083, 5086, 5454, 5456, 6061, 6063, 7005 and 7039.

For the least cracking tendancy use 4043 filler with 1100, 2319 filler with 2219, 4043 filler with 3003, 5356 filler with 5052, 5083, 5086, 5454, and 5456, 4043 filler with 6061 and 6063 and 5356 with 7005 and 7039.

About the higher strength aircraft alloys - 2024 contains copper and 7075 contains zinc and neither are weldable. (Yeah, you can weld 2024 and 7075, but they'll crack the minute you turn your back.) 6061 is a lower strength aircraft alloy and welds well. 2219 is a neat material. It's used for jet engine nose cowl lip skins because of its superior resistance to cracking from anti-ice heat cycling. It does eventually crack however, and I've Tig'd many a catapillar with 2319 over a nose cowl crack on wing. Not wild about the procedure, however since there was no good way to get gas to the backside, but the FAA won't let you fly with a crack, so it was more of an interim "get out of Dodge" repair pending lip skin replacement

All this brings up the inevitable question - what alloy do I have? About the only sure way I know is to use an eddy current tester borrowed from the NDI guys. Set up on the IACS (International Annealed Copper Scale), it'll read different conductivity for different aluminum alloys. Even there, the readings will be close for similar alloys, so some interpretation is required.

Most of the hardware store aluminum sold is of the cheaper 30XX or 50XX series and therefore weldable. I doubt that they stock 6061 because it's more expensive. You won't find non-weldable aircraft grade 2024 or 7075 there either, for the same reason.

[bomberz1qr20]

OlPilot, you're probably the one to ask...

What is the "weldable" difference between 7005 alu and 6061? What I understand is that 6061 is weldable, but needs heat treatment afterwards to gain back it's pre-weld strength. I've been told 7005 does not need this.

These are the two most common alu alloys used in bicycle frame construction these days.

The whole heat treating thing is a bit of a mystery to me, care to comment?

[Markopolo]

Rocky....I'm practicing on 1/8" flat. Last night I actually DID it !
The weld looked crappy, but survived the bend-test ! I got 100% penetration (almost had a little burn-through).
I think if I keep at it, I'll get it. I used an aluminum stick electrode for filler. One more thing: You weren't bulls#itting when you said: "Go like Hell" ! !

[bomberz1qr20]

Originally posted by Markopolo
Rocky....I'm practicing on 1/8" flat. Last night I actually DID it !
The weld looked crappy, but survived the bend-test ! I got 100% penetration (almost had a little burn-through).
I think if I keep at it, I'll get it. I used an aluminum stick electrode for filler. One more thing: You weren't bulls#itting when you said: "Go like Hell" ! !

A guy in class tried last night. What a waste of aluminum that was!



I may try one of these days.

[Markopolo]

Bomberz . . . .It AIN'T easy, especially if you're used to working on steel. A few night's ago, I would have said: "It's just not going to happen"....but with the encouragment I got on this site from everybody (especially rocky d)....... I'm going to keep at it until I get it....or they send the wagon for me....whichever comes first !

I'm bound and determined to gas weld aluminum !

[Franz]

Marco, when last that was practiced commonly, during WW II, since acetelene was rationed and prioritized to ship building, the fuel gas used for aluminum welding on aircraft parts was hydrogen.
Now, if you want to have some fun, swing by the welding supply store, and tell them you're looking for a hydrogen/ox torch cause you want to weld aluminum.
If there ain't an old fart there, things ought to get interesting.

Yeah, and while you're at the welding supply store, tell 'em you want some helium for your heliarc torch. That's sure to make 'em think you're Franz's and my age!

[enlpck]

OlPilot:

the Al bar I've picked up locally has all been 6061 (mill marked as such) but I was just supposing the angle was as well, as it isn't marked. Any idea which is more ikely? Any compatability issues welding the 3000 or 5000 series to 6061 if (well, when) the need comes up? what fille would be appropriate?

[Franz]

OP there are a couple supply houses here that I call from time to time and ask about Heliarc, just for the hell of it. It generally takes them a few minutes till they tell me their computer doesn't show that, or that they don't carry the Heliarc brand.
Dang kids here have no idea what the hell Heliarc is now, but a few of the smarter ones have heard of helium/argon mix.

Enlpck, I'll double check my notes tomorrow afternoon when I get back to work, but I think you would be reasonably safe with 4043 filler.

Bomberz, I'll also check my heat treat and AL notes. Some of these AL alloys naturally age after welding and recover much of their original properties in the HAZ. Other don't.

Franz, I've heerd tell that the old timey Heliarc welders talked funny - sorta' like Donald Duck - after welding for awhile in the flat position. May just be an old weldor's tale.