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Mondo
10-12-2008, 03:32 AM
In the thread on Yellow Glasses MrLeadMan included this note:
“…They sell us gloves at work and I go through a pair a week handling rusty, oily parts doing production MIG welding…”

ss42768 commented:
“…You might want to check with your employer, as OSHA recently passed a law that basically states that an employer can not charge an employee for any item that is deemed necessary for that employee to safely do his or her job, such as safety glasses, welding gloves, welding greens, etc…”

This put me to thinking and researching. I found that OSHA regulations on PPE (Personal Protective Equipment) contained in the Occupational Safety and Health Act of 1970 implicitly required employers to pay for (or provide) PPE. But in the realm of law when something is implied there is a wide door for interpretation which brings contention and litigation. It was not until 1999 that OSHA proposed explicit regulations on the matter of who pays for what. Their final ruling was released on November 15, 2007 and was effective on February 13, 2008, with final compliance required by May 15, 2008.

The simplest presentation of this topic I found at this URL:

http://www.mysafework.com/employees/articles/who-pays-personal-protective-equipment-you-use

The page includes a link to the final text on the DOT/OSHA web site. If you want to skip the laymen’s version you can go directly to the real thing:

http://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=FEDERAL_REGISTER&p_id=20094

The bottom line is except for “standard” work boots, prescription eyewear, certain logging boots, or coverings that are intended only to keep your personal wardrobe and body princess-clean, the employer is obligated to provide or pay the cost of procuring PPE that is required by the regulations.

My experience is that many employers, though not all, will provide the cheapest and flimsiest gloves and other such personal items that can be found anywhere in the universe. If you want gloves that are comfortable, fit, and last more than a day you have to buy your own.

This leaves a question for MrLeadMan:

Are the gloves your employer sells you necessary for personal safety, or are they only to protect your manicure?

-Mondo

JeffB
10-12-2008, 09:45 AM
"Handling rusty, oily parts doing production MIG welding" leads me to think good leather gloves would be for more than keeping his hands clean.

Engloid
10-12-2008, 11:42 AM
The rusty parts he's talking about may have sharp edges. Add oily parts and sharp edges and cuts are very likely. Gloves in a shop environment are not provided by emloyers because they keep your hands clean, it's because it reduces the occurrance of cuts and hand injuries.

duaneb55
10-12-2008, 11:47 AM
Great info for those affected Mondo. Thanks for the post.

patrickp
10-12-2008, 12:33 PM
this may be out of line but if this is a production line then how is the steel rusty? i can see it being oily from being machined. i worked at a production plant where we used mig and all of the steel was being used as soon it came off the truck. so to me it seems that it's not a busy production line. cause with steel as high as it is there's not a lot of places stock piling it. this is just me talking so maybe i'm wrong.

flatbustedbroke
10-12-2008, 12:40 PM
The rust part wouldn't equate to a need for ppe but the oil would as repeated exposure has been shown to cause cancer. Yes this is a little over the top but as we know so is OSHA. have found that depending upon the size of the company if you can actually talk to whoever does the purchasing that the cheap don't last as long so the consumption rate can cause the individual price of the cheaper product to actual far out pace the cost of the quality piece. This doesn't always work but I have seen it work and now would be the time to do this as everyone is watching the bottom line and this could be shown to have an impact on that line. Companies seem to be more willing to listen if you can back it up.

Engloid
10-12-2008, 12:49 PM
Also, when gloves get oil-soaked, they cut eaiser. It's also easier to drop parts with oil-soaked gloves, which can lead to injuries.

Fat Bastard
10-12-2008, 01:40 PM
this may be out of line but if this is a production line then how is the steel rusty? i can see it being oily from being machined. i worked at a production plant where we used mig and all of the steel was being used as soon it came off the truck. so to me it seems that it's not a busy production line. cause with steel as high as it is there's not a lot of places stock piling it. this is just me talking so maybe i'm wrong.

I have worked with steel (tubing) fresh off the rail car that came direct from the mill that is covered with oil and small amounts of {rust} muck.

Sheets of cold rolled steel with a coating of rust inhibitor(oil)

Un protected steel will rust in a matter of hours, in the right conditions.

patrickp
10-12-2008, 03:08 PM
see your point there fb. i used to work at a semi flatbed trailer place. all of the steel was pretty well clean. and now that i think about i remember i went into a machine shop and all of their steel was covered in rust protective covering. where does the memory go.:(

MrLeadMan
10-12-2008, 04:24 PM
Are the gloves your employer sells you necessary for personal safety, or are they only to protect your manicure?

When im laying a 3/8 weld 2 feet to 8 feet long the gloves are not to protect a $50 fake nail job, they are to prevent the second degree burns like I got once as an inexperianced young welder who didnt take the time to go find his gloves for one part!

As for rust the folks I work for are short on storage and bulk steel may sit on the yard for a while before going to the saw, plate processor or plasma table. Even steel that is in of doors rusts easily in the south mississippi humidity.

We may spend two days on one product before changing our setup. Our machine shop may build a years supply of parts at a time and we weld per order so some parts have lots of time to rust.

Everything goes through a rotoblaster before it gets powder painted.

Thanks for the links Mondo I was trying to find that on the google.

HGHS-Corp
12-30-2008, 01:25 PM
The Firm pays, of course :D

for work clothing, safety equipment, safety shoes, gloves, etc. according to the agreement with the Metalworkers Union:D

Engloid
12-30-2008, 11:28 PM
The job I'm working on now bought me a brand new pair of safety toe boots. They're $150 Hy-Test. They also buy all our gloves and green jackets and/or sleeves. The last job I was on wound up eliminating the regular leather work gloves, and going to gloves that had kevlar lining inside, for increased safety. They provided us with all the dust masks and/or respirators we asked for. They provided welding hoods (not your pick, theirs), and all other PPE. Actually, you didn't even have to bring a pair of wirecutters on the job. They provided Klein's. ALL tools were provided.

From my experience, union jobs provide more PPE for you than nonunion jobs.

Brink, M.E.
12-31-2008, 02:30 AM
This may be slightly related/unrelated but when I worked at a petro-chem plant this previous summer for a high voltage contractor, all the PPE we wore/used seemed to be mandatory due to OSHA regulations. If it was possible to find something not covered by an OSHA reg the people that ran this plant probably wouldn't have cared . . . as long as an injury wasn't possible. Some of the PPE was provided by the plant, but the nomex and gloves were provided by the contractor. Either way if we needed ANYTHING related to the job either the plant or the contractor 'had' to provide it in some way. Oh well now that I think about it, prescription safety glasses and safety toe boots were our responsibility.

A little more on-topic, we were provided with cheap leather gloves, but honestly i don't think higher quality gloves would've lasted much longer anyway due to normal working conditions, but the cheapies weren't that bad anyway. It was also reg to have the gloves replaced if there were even the tiniest hole . . . I'm pretty sure that was a plant rule and not high voltage specific. Oh and while working we were only allowed to remove our gloves if it could be shown that they hindered our work.

Almost every plant/contractor reg/rule could be tied into OSHA somehow so I'd say it's safe to say that it's the employers responsibility to provide/replace gloves or they'll have Big Brother to answer to.

dougspair
12-31-2008, 10:30 PM
PPE.....Well, I'm the maintenance man in a sheet-metal shop that works with Galv. steel in the gauge sizes.....18-30 ga....
We make HVAC ductwork....I'm the ONLY one that even wears boots....everyone else wears tennis shoes....that would be about 60-70 people....in the shop/warehouse and shipping.....
Employer buys only the very cheapest ear-plugs, gloves and safety glasses...most all are from China, 'Radner'...(Radnor) welding store 'house' brand....many guys don't wear the safety glasses or ear-plugs....but most all wear the glovers....to keep their soft pink hands clean, more than for protection from injury.

Myself...I buy my own Wolverine boots, Tillman gloves, Peltor ear-muffs, and $40 Poly-carb. safety glasses....

We have a lot of injuries due to the lack of trained supervision, and low-dollar/min-wage workers ....
The legally required safety cabinet is always out of bandaids.....and usually a weekly trip to the Dr. for stitches by at least one employee.
Seems employer would rather pay fines, than to up-grade the shop equipment....we have 6 old (50-60 yrs.) mech. press-brakes up to about 50 ton, 7 'one-shot' punch presses, equally old (up to 50 tons!)...5 hydraulic shears, 20 metal-piercing riveters, .......and not even 1 machine in the shop has a safety guard....
In my 3 years there....5-6 guys have lost finger tips, one guy had all 4 fingers cut off in a 5 foot hydraulic shear....he's lucky....they were able to re-attach his fingers. He can't bend them much and little feeling in them...still no guard on themachine...I don't know how they get away with this.

None of this is under any control of mine.....as in this, and many other 'old-thinking' shops....maintenance man is seen as mostly an annoying sort of parasite....costs $$$ and doesn't make anything they can sell.....

A call or two to OSHA would likely get the place closed....and all out of work....sort of a dilemma....

And this is in Sacramento, California.....so much for any advanced thinking in the 7th largest economy in the world??? Even Arnold can't help us....

And of course NO labor union around this place.

Teddco
12-31-2008, 11:19 PM
Go to http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2008/julqtr/pdf/29cfr1910.132.pdf. These are the OSHA Code of Federal Regulations (CFR) general requirements for who pays for PPE. One of the Notes states other activity-specific sections of 29 CFR 1910 (Industrial OSHA) and 29 CFR 1926 (Construction OSHA) may have different requirements if more specialized PPE is required for the associated hazards. Also note that employers had until May 15, 2008 to comply with these general requirements. Here are some other CFR links for welders.

http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2008/julqtr/pdf/29cfr1910.253.pdf
http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2008/julqtr/pdf/29cfr1910.254.pdf
http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2008/julqtr/pdf/29cfr1910.255.pdf
http://www.access.gpo.gov/nara/cfr/waisidx_08/29cfr1910_08.html
http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2008/julqtr/pdf/29cfr1926.350.pdf
http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2008/julqtr/pdf/29cfr1926.351.pdf
http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2008/julqtr/pdf/29cfr1926.353.pdf
http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/cfr_2008/julqtr/pdf/29cfr1926.354.pdf

For reporting egregious and repeated violations that result in injuries or fatalities:
http://www.dol.gov/dolfaq/go-dol-faq.asp?faqid=259&faqsub=Complaints&faqtop=Workplace+Safety+%26+Health&topicid=2&lookfor=osha
www.osha.gov/dep/oia/whistleblower/index.html

REB
10-03-2012, 01:21 PM
I'm advised that the above link to OSHA's page describing its whistleblower program is not working any longer.
Here is a new link that may be helpful, too:
http://www.publichealthdegree.com/resources/occupational-safety-and-health-act-osha/

hobohilton
10-03-2012, 04:35 PM
The job I'm working on now bought me a brand new pair of safety toe boots. They're $150 Hy-Test. They also buy all our gloves and green jackets and/or sleeves. The last job I was on wound up eliminating the regular leather work gloves, and going to gloves that had kevlar lining inside, for increased safety. They provided us with all the dust masks and/or respirators we asked for. They provided welding hoods (not your pick, theirs), and all other PPE. Actually, you didn't even have to bring a pair of wirecutters on the job. They provided Klein's. ALL tools were provided.

From my experience, union jobs provide more PPE for you than nonunion jobs.
-------------------------------------------------------
I've been there..... You are correct. And the higher the technology on the job the higher the quality of the PPE. As I aged, I learned the high tech / stainless steel jobs / FDA / High Purity / Orbital Welding projects were the place to be.

Hobo

millrat
10-03-2012, 07:58 PM
Even being union, it depends on the employer. They have General Council. If they can skirt the OSHA, they will.

Steel toed boots - required. Employer $0.00 - I pay $160.00. Safety galsses are provided - generic Z87, non perscription. I wear perscription eyewear. The generic do NOT cover my melon shape well. Perscription safety glasses with double D bi-focal (top and bottom) - $340.00. Hand protection (gloves) provided. Cheapest, fits all that can be found (made by Omar the tent maker I think). Cutting and grinding with cloth backed gloves - not so good. Buying my own Tillman full leather - priceless. Welding PPE? You're on your own. You could push it, but when that job is done, expect to be in the dog house (bench) for a while.

From all the OSHA classes I've taken (up to OSHA 30), the general comment from the instructors is that most of the enforcement falls under the "General Duty Clause", despite the rest of the regs.

Long story short, buy what works for YOU if you have to. An employer, from my experience, isn't going to take care of YOUR family if something happens. They just call out "next" for the position.

cafyrman
10-03-2012, 11:31 PM
Long story short, buy what works for YOU if you have to. An employer, from my experience, isn't going to take care of YOUR family if something happens.

Not too familiar with what's happening in the trades. In my line of work, there's a move towards not letting us purchase our own PPE. Too hard to determine what meets standards, etc. (Yes, I know there's a tag) "They" say that anyone injured using PPE that they bought themselves may not be covered by worker's comp. For example, if you're wearing leather work gloves rather than your bulky firefighting gloves and get a burn, you may not be covered. Just a thought. Luckily we get some pretty darn good PPE anyway.

Scott Young
10-04-2012, 03:14 AM
Are the gloves your employer sells you necessary for personal safety, or are they only to protect your manicure?

When im laying a 3/8 weld 2 feet to 8 feet long the gloves are not to protect a $50 fake nail job, they are to prevent the second degree burns like I got once as an inexperianced young welder who didnt take the time to go find his gloves for one part!

As for rust the folks I work for are short on storage and bulk steel may sit on the yard for a while before going to the saw, plate processor or plasma table. Even steel that is in of doors rusts easily in the south mississippi humidity.

We may spend two days on one product before changing our setup. Our machine shop may build a years supply of parts at a time and we weld per order so some parts have lots of time to rust.

Everything goes through a rotoblaster before it gets powder painted.

Thanks for the links Mondo I was trying to find that on the google.

Who do you work for?

Most shops I have been around and worked for, they will provide ear protection and glasses (the cheapest). I have never had a shop buy my gloves and I use better glasses than the ones they provide. I use a couple different gloves. I have an old pair that I use for all the oily parts, a mig/tig pair for fit up and tig, and then I have a heavy pair I use for stick and mig welding. Depending upon the job, I may have two sets of gloves with me at any given time. I have a large gator clip that I use to clip the extra pair to carry.

mb_welder
10-04-2012, 06:38 AM
They sell you gloves? That's BS!

In terms off PPE, I supply my welding helmet of preference, work clothes (although I can claim them!) and work boots. Out of preference I supply a lot of my own tools as well (learned behavior from prior companies!) I don't supply my own coverplates or gloves or ear protection...safety glasses I do, but that's because they're prescription! (darn eyesight!)

I can't wrap my head around it...they SELL you gloves...to use when you work for them....What the *non offensive happy smiles*???

CamAus
10-04-2012, 07:10 AM
Most big companies in aus, especially in mining, supply everything. Clothes, boots, gloves, glasses the whole deal. Most people throw away glasses everyday, get a new pair the next day. Same with gloves. It's a huge waste but no one seems to care. If the companies didn't supply PPE then no one would even consider working for them.

mb_welder
10-05-2012, 08:03 AM
Ehh...well that could be why a lot of companies get stingent! I suppose it depends on the work environment, but wet gloves dry, glasses are cleanable (to a point!) and consumables are maintainable (also to a point!)

On gloves, I usually wear them until "Knarled monkey fist of DOOM" seriously sets in and there are holes involved, but I am stubborn...I maintain nozzles in good working order until the bitter end!

I think the biggest thing is that workers should, as part of their job, be trained to maintain the equipment that they use daily. We're not talking electrical or whatnot, but basic tool maintenance! Oil air tools, blow out grinders, clean nozzles properly without butchering them, etc...

Scott Young
10-05-2012, 12:25 PM
Ehh...well that could be why a lot of companies get stingent! I suppose it depends on the work environment, but wet gloves dry, glasses are cleanable (to a point!) and consumables are maintainable (also to a point!)

On gloves, I usually wear them until "Knarled monkey fist of DOOM" seriously sets in and there are holes involved, but I am stubborn...I maintain nozzles in good working order until the bitter end!

I think the biggest thing is that workers should, as part of their job, be trained to maintain the equipment that they use daily. We're not talking electrical or whatnot, but basic tool maintenance! Oil air tools, blow out grinders, clean nozzles properly without butchering them, etc...


Well said. I work with some that will change new tips and nozzles several times a day. They walk up to the tool room and get a new one. All this is a ruse to not work. I can use a tip and nozzle it seems for eternity. On the machine at my house, I haven't changed a nozzle for over two years and it gets used heavily. It is getting on to where I need to change the tip out once every blue moon. I think I have only changed it 3 times? I don't know. I have several tips I will change out. depending upon what size wire I use. They just lay in the wire compartment until it is time to use them. they are blackish from the use and the effects of nozzle dip, but they are still good.

Now if you are spray welding with a 250 gun then you will burn up some tips and nozzles, but then you have to balance tips and nozzles with a new bigger spray gun.

back to gloves. The only welding jobs I know of that supply gloves and all are the union jobs. Many of the ones I have been around take things like that for granted and tend to misuse it. One of the welders I knew had the highest ethics would not play that game and he commented that the daily glove throw out was common and he had a collection of gloves that had been thrown out by the other guys.

millrat
10-05-2012, 04:23 PM
Ehh...well that could be why a lot of companies get stingent! I suppose it depends on the work environment, but wet gloves dry, glasses are cleanable (to a point!) and consumables are maintainable (also to a point!)

On gloves, I usually wear them until "Knarled monkey fist of DOOM" seriously sets in and there are holes involved, but I am stubborn...I maintain nozzles in good working order until the bitter end!

I think the biggest thing is that workers should, as part of their job, be trained to maintain the equipment that they use daily. We're not talking electrical or whatnot, but basic tool maintenance! Oil air tools, blow out grinders, clean nozzles properly without butchering them, etc...

"stubborn"? I've seen the results of that too. Many of us done that and most of have the scars to prove it. "Clean nozzels" aren't much good without the hands to operate them. ;) Just sayin'

Er... the last line. That's also an OSHA mandate for the employer.

The OSHA regs are available on line and so are MSHA. MSHA regs make OSHA look look they are out to lunch. I worked at a site classified as an MSHA site, believe me, I know.

http://www.osha.gov/ and http://www.msha.gov/30cfr/0.0.htm

'course you'll spend countless hours at it as I have. Never will know them all, but at least they can be referenced when needed.

The best way I know of to get an employer into compliance, as an employee, is to mention the word "safety" in the conversation, especially if they have a "safety" person (worth being paid), on the payroll.

If you're providing basic PPE "requierd" to perform your tasks: Hand protection, Eye protection (glasses and face shields), Hearing protection, Hard or bump caps, Footwear, Fall protection, etc, something is wrong with that picture.

Buying your own could be an issue. Get the employer to sign off the OK for it. I bought my own Fall protection equipment (price that out), because I wouldn't wear the employers that was always buried under the tooling in the bottom of the gang boxes. Too many with cuts/abrasions that had to be pulled out of service. Down time for replacements. They were always too big to be adjusted correctily for my frame. Also, inspection is the responsibility of the wearer BEFORE donning the equipment......... every time!

There some rules that do not require OSHA compliance as I understand it. IE: family owned with family employees. Number of employees non-family (that may have changed). Farming operations to mention a few.

Work safe (CYA). Watch out for others around you (for your's and their sake). Hoping everyone goes home in the same shape when they came in. :waving:

weldbay
10-05-2012, 06:08 PM
Remember when your employer provides safty clothing he in affect assumes liability that they are approriate to the task. In that thought they usually to a good job albeit the least expensive.

If you want to buy your own remember they are fully tax deductable.

Your choice.

rabidchimp
10-08-2012, 11:44 AM
Worked at a heavy duty fab shop once...just once. They provided gloves, ear plugs and safety glasses. The didn't require steel toe boots. When I asked about why they didn't require them, I was told that they didn'tn want to pay for them. I think the business should provide the safety goodies.
-Aaron

Big Jeremy
11-11-2012, 04:40 PM
One place I worked at gave you the glasses and gloves for free. When you worn them out, you had to turn them in to get another pair. If you couldn't provide the worn out items, you paid for the next pair.


Big Jeremy