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David R
05-26-2009, 05:07 PM
This thread is about making MIG look TIG, or really nice looking mig welds.

I am going to try something.

ONLY POST IF YOU HAVE A PICTURE OF YOUR OWN WORK.

The point is we want to SEE your attempt.

I am going to try to master this too.

Here is my picture. It aint like ZTfabs, but it was about 200 feet of weld.


WFS 330 of .035, about 20 volts C/25. This is 3/16" square tubing so there is a natural perfect fit up. I should have been at around 200 amps.

33676

Horizontal, making circles going up on the forward stroke. First pass on clean bare steal, second pass down through the puddle. I turn the heat WAY UP to do this. 200 amps on 3/16" horizontal groove.
Here is a link to another thread

http://weldingweb.com/showthread.php?t=13643&highlight=mig+tig




Nothing discussed here but Mig welds.



David :)

edit: Mig gun was held straight in the joint.

ol'goldenarm
05-26-2009, 05:17 PM
i have never tried to tig weld i was wanting to know if it is at all harder than stick, i need to know cause works gettin scarace and i may have to go singel hand and they say combo pays better

weldbead
05-26-2009, 05:27 PM
harder shmarder, its different. its like oa welding, heat in one hand to make the puddle, and filler in the other to feed it. in ways its easier than stick , cause thers no slag to block yer view, you see the molten metal and its up to you to make sure it goes where it should.

David R
05-26-2009, 05:54 PM
I was welding bucket teeth on using a forward whip and bare wire.



33684


Mig welds that look like tig welds or attempts at it.

David :)

GerryR
05-26-2009, 06:16 PM
Just curious, is this a new fashion thing or is their some good technical reason to make MIG look like TIG??

David R
05-26-2009, 06:25 PM
Take a look here and see what started this.

http://weldingweb.com/showthread.php?t=30507

Along with other threads about the same thing.

This is a trial thread.

David :)

Bob Warner
05-26-2009, 06:33 PM
Here is an image that I got out of my welders manual. It shows that dragging is a real method which was challenged in another thread.

Also a meager attempt of getting the tig weld look on some crappy rusty steel. There is a photo of the welds and a photo of the inside of the box.

I did not have good steel to try it on but will try to get something better soon.

Bob

dclevinger
05-26-2009, 09:58 PM
I'm glad you started this thread David. I've been wanting to try doing this and just needed a reason.

Lincoln 100 HD with .030" NR-211-MP on some 1 1/4" X 1/8" angle iron. I didn't hold it at the end quite long enough but it ain't too bad after about 5 minutes of playing around. The dime is partially covering a tack, I ran a few beads on the other side before trying this one.

I may re-post this one so you guys can critique it without hijacking this thread.

http://i563.photobucket.com/albums/ss76/dcengraving/welding/tigmig.jpg

welderShane
05-26-2009, 10:24 PM
Here was my attempt on 3/8 plate to 5/8 roundbar. I used a lincoln weld pak and .035 lincoln innershield nr211mp wire. This was a table mount for my sander.
Shane

TSOR
05-26-2009, 10:25 PM
Just curious, is this a new fashion thing or is their some good technical reason to make MIG look like TIG??

For my business - custom off road fabrication- it is the customers perception that these types of welds are better. Of course, appearance doesn't really have much to do with the quality. As welders we know that, but for me, aesthetically appealing welds help sales.


Here is a pic of a Dana 60 axle housing I mig welded to the tubes.

ZTFab
05-26-2009, 11:32 PM
Here's a couple of my attempts at it.

These were some prototype brackets, .125" CRS.

http://www.weldingweb.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=22037&d=1216688643

http://www.weldingweb.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=22040&d=1216688704

This is a truss that I made for a 9" differential housing: I cut the truss from 2"x3"x.125" tubing.

http://www.weldingweb.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=8417&d=1174948947

http://www.weldingweb.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=8420&d=1174949049

And here is the "box" from the previous thread. It is actually a cover for an old rooftop hatch that was de-commissioned. .125" CRS.

http://www.weldingweb.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=9045&d=1177020594

http://www.weldingweb.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=9046&d=1177020611

http://www.weldingweb.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=9047&d=1177020632

http://www.weldingweb.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=9048&d=1177020646

TSOR
05-26-2009, 11:40 PM
Here's a couple of my attempts at it.



"attempts" - that's funny right there!

ZTFab
05-27-2009, 03:42 PM
Here's a few more...

.125" and .188" CRS.

These are both open corner joints like the "box". THere is a small piece with a lap joint on the .188" as well.

http://www.weldingweb.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=33241&d=1242449481

http://www.weldingweb.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=33242&d=1242449567

http://www.weldingweb.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=33243&d=1242449609

http://www.weldingweb.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=33244&d=1242449643

http://www.weldingweb.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=33245&d=1242449743

rode2rouen
05-27-2009, 07:06 PM
My first attempts were more like "MIG like MIG".
I cut 8 coupons of 1/8" CRS and tacked them to give myself open groove joints.
This was also my first try at pulling the torch, I usually push.

Each coupon was welded in 2 steps, from the corner to the center tack, left to right, with changes in WFS and voltage made on each half. You can see the reference marks: 1A/1B,
2A/2B, etc.

Basic settings:
Lincoln PM300 in GMAW (#5) mode....no pulse.
.035" ER70-6
92/8 Ar/Co2

Coupons tacked but needing cleaned. The "Spot" feature is cool! .5sec duration.
http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww216/bjorn_toulouse/MIG%20like%20TIG/tacked.jpg

Coupon 1: A side, 150 WFS / 20 volts Too Hot!!....B side, 150 WFS / 17.5 volts.
http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww216/bjorn_toulouse/MIG%20like%20TIG/1about.jpg
http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww216/bjorn_toulouse/MIG%20like%20TIG/1abin.jpg

Coupon 2: A side, 140 WFS / 17.5 volts....B side, 140 WFS / 16 volts....still hot.
http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww216/bjorn_toulouse/MIG%20like%20TIG/2about.jpg
http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww216/bjorn_toulouse/MIG%20like%20TIG/2abin.jpg

Coupon 3: A side, 130 WFS / 16 volts....B side, 130 WFS / 15 volts....unstable arc @ 15volts, 16 seems mo' better.
http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww216/bjorn_toulouse/MIG%20like%20TIG/3about.jpg
http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww216/bjorn_toulouse/MIG%20like%20TIG/3abin.jpg

Coupon 4: A side, 120 WFS / 16 volts....B side, 110 WFS / 16 volts.
http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww216/bjorn_toulouse/MIG%20like%20TIG/4about.jpg
http://i721.photobucket.com/albums/ww216/bjorn_toulouse/MIG%20like%20TIG/4abin.jpg

Coupon 4A seems to be the best of the lot, from a WFS/Volts standpoint. I think my technique of making the "e" is too slow. Like, I'm not taking the horizontal move far enough to the right before I curve back around counter clockwise.

I spent about 1/2 an hour doing "dry runs" with the machine turned off so as to get a feel for the drag/"e" technique. The 400 amp gun is definitely NOT the one for this!

Comments and pointers will be appreciated!


Rex

JC'sWelding
05-27-2009, 07:17 PM
No fair! I think Paul should be excluded from this "attempt" :laugh::laugh::laugh:

Michael Jordan: "Just put this ball through that loop? Sure, I'll try it" :laugh::laugh::laugh:

David R
05-27-2009, 07:18 PM
Amps or heat is the wire speed.

Volts are the bead width. You can see that in your cupons.

I would try 120 to 130 ipm with about 17 -18 volts. To your own taste of course.....

If you look at cupon 3, A side you are close, but there is too much weld or wire.

you could also try straight in and push.

I like the attempts, looks like you are on your way!

More please

David :)

Dan
05-27-2009, 07:46 PM
Here are a few sample T joints that I ran quite a while ago.

BigTuna
05-27-2009, 09:41 PM
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b114/quick85supra/newweld002.jpg

Jamie Webb
05-28-2009, 09:40 PM
http://www.kartingengines.com/images/Welding/mig.jpg

It is a small part, but that is all I have in here right now. I honestly can't remember if I pushed or pulled this one. I push/pull based on which side I am coming from and what I can do to get comfortable. I can also weld with either hand so right to left or left to right doesn't bother me.

For a comparison, here is a small tig weld I did recently.

http://www.kartingengines.com/images/Welding/tig.jpg

ZTFab
05-29-2009, 12:06 AM
Here are a few sample T joints that I ran quite a while ago.

Those are beautiful welds Dan.

maniak
05-29-2009, 01:36 PM
I hate guys that weld like that :cry: It's beautiful work, you make us all proud...I know you've listed it before, but ZT could you give your parameters again? I've got an itch to give it a go too. Hat's off to all those that showed up on this! :drinkup: Thanks

maniak

wesdavidson
05-29-2009, 05:56 PM
That axle truss is art.

Just realised, referencing another thread, GOOD ART. didn't want any mistakes here.

ZTFab
05-29-2009, 06:24 PM
That axle truss is art.

Just realised, referencing another thread, GOOD ART. didn't want any mistakes here.

Thanks.

I like this one that I did a little better. It's in two separate threads.

http://weldingweb.com/showthread.php?t=10922

http://weldingweb.com/showthread.php?t=11016

ZTFab
05-29-2009, 06:25 PM
I hate guys that weld like that :cry: It's beautiful work, you make us all proud...I know you've listed it before, but ZT could you give your parameters again? I've got an itch to give it a go too. Hat's off to all those that showed up on this! :drinkup: Thanks

maniak

Any weld in particular? I posted a couple of different ones and they would obviously have different settings.

tanglediver
05-30-2009, 12:03 AM
I wouldn't want my mig welds to look like tig. Clean and consistant, yes! But not like tig, it ain't natural. The best from my days leading up to certifying.
http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w191/tanglediver/P1130003.jpg
Lincoln V350 Pro @ 18.~plus volts and LN-7 wire feeder @ 225-ish? ipm.
Here are some tig beads from cyberspace...yeah, I can do that! :laugh:

Reebs
05-30-2009, 10:47 AM
ZFab
My wife hates it when I call here in to look at something on the compter. She really liked your work on the axel housing. I'm greeeeeeeeeeeeen with enzy.

ZTFab
05-31-2009, 11:14 AM
Thanks Reebs.

Here's a pic of a scrap piece of tubing that I welded to some .125" plate. The tube is 1.75"x.120" DOM mild steel.

I used my Lincoln PowerMIG with .030" ER70S-6, C25 gas @ 15cfh.


33895

33896

Reebs
05-31-2009, 12:34 PM
You are amazing!

Black Wolf
05-31-2009, 04:03 PM
My first attempts were more like "MIG like MIG".
I cut 8 coupons of 1/8" CRS and tacked them to give myself open groove joints.

Basic settings:
Lincoln PM300 in GMAW (#5) mode....no pulse.
.035" ER70-6
92/8 Ar/Co2

Coupon 1: A side, 150 WFS / 20 volts Too Hot!!....B side, 150 WFS / 17.5 volts.

Coupon 2: A side, 140 WFS / 17.5 volts....B side, 140 WFS / 16 volts....still hot.

Coupon 3: A side, 130 WFS / 16 volts....B side, 130 WFS / 15 volts....unstable arc @ 15volts, 16 seems mo' better.

Coupon 4: A side, 120 WFS / 16 volts....B side, 110 WFS / 16 volts.

Comments and pointers will be appreciated!

Rex

Afternoon Rex,

You asked for pointers, so I will give you some...

As to my background, I am Lincoln Lover... One of my favourite shop models is the Invertec V-350 Pro, but have been using PM 300's and PM 350 MP's for the last two years or so. I think my "Frankenstein" Mig Cart is on here somewhere.... It is my intention to tweak what you have been doing to get you where you want to be, and better enjoying your Lincoln product.

First off, your settings are WAY OFF. Voltage is too high for that low of wire feed speed on a PM 300.

Go over to the Synergic (11) setting for a minute and dial down your WFS until you get to 16.5 Volts, What do you get? 175 Inches Per Minute, which is substantially more than what you are attempting to use. I would suggest that you use this new WFS number as a starting point and then fine tune to your preference.

You will NOT get a decent weld profile out of the settings you are currently using.

I use the Non-Synergic (5) mode quite a bit as well, as I am rather fussy, and don't always agree with Lincoln just "Throwing the wire" at the weld pool, but it might be helpful to go over to the Synergic (11) mode and write down the recommended WFS for various voltages (16.5 Volts through to about 28.5 Volts in 0.5 Volt increments) and use these as a rough starting point in the Non-Synergic (05) mode.

I use 16.5 Volts & 175 WFS quite a bit when if fits the application. It is an easily controlled setting for both weld quality and appearance. Try doing a 3F (Vertical Fillet weld) with any of your setting posted above, and see what your end up with... Then try the previously mentioned 16.5 V/175 WFS and see (and HEAR) the difference.

Now if I may, one minor correction, and yes, it IS splitting hairs a tad, but the coupons that you prepared are not arranged in an "Open Groove" joint configuration, or any groove weld as is normally referred to by Groove Weld classifications for plate (1G, 2G, 3G, 4G)... What you have prepared is a very simple "Open" Corner joint.

If you can remember acronyms, there are 5 Joint configurations: "BCTEL"

Bevel (All the "Groove" welds)
Corner (Several variations from Closed to Open)
Tee (All of the Fillet welds)
Edge
Lap

Here comes my $.02 on this thread:

Honestly, this whole "Mig Like Tig" thing is both disturbing and somewhat ridiculous to me...

Mig (or GMAW) is meant to look like Mig (or GMAW) and Tig (or GTAW) is meant to look like Tig (or GTAW)... By that, I mean that if your prepare your joints correctly, and you weld correctly (Paying attention to the metal - ensuring proper fusion through while maintaining puddle control) your welds will look like whatever process you used.

Mig (or GMAW) has different visual characteristics than Tig (or GTAW) because the obviously are very different processes. With Tig (or GTAW) you have the ability to weld Autogenously (No added filler) if you like....It depends on the application.

It will be a real shame if some newcomers come to this thread, and get so wrapped up in making Mig (or GMAW) LOOK like Tig (or GTAW) that they miss the whole point, and make poor welds that lead to eventual failure, and cause injury or loss.

1) Prepare your materials properly.
2) Concentrate on the weld process you are using
3) Make strong, sound, proper weldments
4) Develop your technique, and make them pretty AFTER.

I have been an admirer of Paul (ZTFab) for a long time... He is an INCREDIBLE Craftsman, both in his welding and his fabrication. I have told him so on many, many occasions, and it is good that you choose him to fashion your skills after, or use him as the benchmark of what you would aspire to be. He is, as I have said - "Incredible"

But what most of you fail to realize is that Paul's level of skill does NOT come overnight... He will have thousands of hours under a hood developing his technique. From his background, he makes welds that people's live's have depended on, in various Motorsports, so he learned how to make strong weldments.

Are his welds "Textbook" welds? Some may say yes, others may say no... But both would agree that he has very definite, and easily recognizable "Signature" Welds.

It is great that you all appreciate the visual appearance, but that is secondary to the actual strength of the weldment.

I'm climbing off the soap box now... Just felt it had to be said.

ZTFab
05-31-2009, 04:40 PM
Jason,

Thanks for the compliments and thank you for stating the things that definitely need to be addressed.

I have said the same thing for years as this technique does draw criticism as well as admiration. There are basics of welding that must be established and perfected before aesthetic techniques can be applied.

The technique(s) that I use can provide very sound welds but, as you stated, in the hands of an inexperienced weldor can yield detrimental results.

For those who don't know, Jason (Black Wolf) is a very accomplished and skilled weldor and has many years experience. He speaks the truth and has the skill set to back it up.

David R
05-31-2009, 08:12 PM
OK, I 'll throw in my $.02. Its just a looks thing and obviously some are really good at it. This thread was started because of another thread was going well then got way off track. I started a new one.

NOWHERE does it or I say all mig welds should look like this. There is a lot of interest in making mig welds as pretty as ZTfab does, so I am trying to let the information out.

I just weld. Some come out looking better than others. The pic of my welds posted earlier are of just jobs. I was not trying to make em look any different. I have said it many times. " I don't need no stinkin dimes" I saw an interest and started the thread. I have also said if you want it to look like TIG, then get out the TIG torch and have at it.

This thread is here to let the information flow.

David :)

JDWeld
05-31-2009, 08:12 PM
I have to chime in here. I have been welding for about 9 years now and have ALWAYS ran my GMAW welds in a "push" fashion with the exception of flux core or dual shield wire, in which case I use the drag method for obvious reasons. I am certified in both hard wire stainless MIG and dual shield steel for structural welding. But in no way am I saying I am an excellent weldor. I have seen some "certified" weldors make some welds that just plain scare the living daylights out of me,

Anyway the point of all this nonsense is to say that I am not a "newbie" to this welding process as I can make some MIG welds like the best of them. But ever since I have been welding I have ALWAYS been taught to tilt the gun in the direction of travel and always PUSH hard wire and never ever drag it (unless flux core or dual shield is being used). I have been told that pulling doesn't get quite the penetration and the tie in at the toe of the welds like dual shield and flux core do. So in NO way am I discrediting ZTFab or anyone using this method. Its very apparent that his welds are both beautiful to the eye and to the aspects of a proper weldment. Im begining to wonder, have I been mislead this entire time? Can you make a pull weld as strong as a push weld? I would tend to think not as the preheating of the push method would aid in penetration but maybe Im wrong because of the way I have been taught. Im asking because I want to expand my welding knowledge as there is no such thing as knowing too much. Especially if it has to do with my job and how I put food on the table. Thanks!

David R
05-31-2009, 08:23 PM
JDWeld, I disagree. Pull gets more penetration than push. Look in the books.

Pull (backhand) is for a deeper narrowed bead and push is the opposite. Both can be done with mig depending on the situation. I may have to do a test.....

************************************************** ************************************************** *******
Copied from here http://www.esabna.com/EUWeb/MIG_handbook/592mig7_8.htm

Torch position has a slightly greater effect than does welding voltage or arc travel speed. The effect of changing the longitudinal torch angle, or switching from a forehand to backhand welding technique is shown in Figure 7-10. It can be seen that generally the forehand welding technique yields shallower penetration than does the backhand technique. Maximum weld penetration is achieved with a torch angle of 25 deg. and the backhand welding technique. However, beyond this degree of torch angle, arc instability and spatter will increase. For very thin materials or where low penetration is required, a forehand technique is generally used.
************************************************** ************************************************** *********
I am not saying you are doing it wrong. I use both methods. I have a 3G Mig unlimited thickness cert. I used push to take the (vertical up) test........

A test would be fine with me in another thread. I will participate.



Black wolf, I Use a V350 with the advanced panel. OMGWHATAMACHINE!

David :)

Sandy
05-31-2009, 08:54 PM
In regards to the push/pull issue only this gif at the bottom is borrowed from Miller and Hobart.

Supoorting info is as follows.

http://www.hobartwelders.com/elearning/#mig

http://www.millerwelds.com/resources/tech_tips/MIG_tips/

Or:
"When using the GMAW process on light gauge material,
weld from right to left (if you are right handed).
This results in a colder weld and has less tendency for
burn through."
From;
http://content.lincolnelectric.com/pdfs/products/navigator/im/LTW1TRI.pdf

Also:

http://www.millerwelds.com/pdf/mig_handbook.pdf

And

http://www.hobartwelders.com/elearning/pdfs/MIG_Welding_Tips.pdf

Perhaps this post belongs in another thread as well. Don't wish to detract from this thread.

JDWeld
06-01-2009, 12:04 AM
David R. I too would be willing to try both on a different machine(s) and a few different thickness for the sake of educational purposes. We have an old work horse Pow-Con and Miller 251's in the shop. This is a real eye opener to me. All these years I have been taught wrong by people I would consider some of the best welders I have ever met. (and I have met alot of them) To anyone else feel free to do the same thing and post your findings. Pictures would be great. But we will start this in another thread so we can get back to topic in this thread. Thanks David R, ZTFab and everyone else. I look forward to our own findings and results. :cool2:

rode2rouen
06-01-2009, 09:43 AM
Afternoon Rex,

You asked for pointers, so I will give you some...





Thanx, Jason!!

I'll be cutting some more coupons today.....
I spent the weekend cutting brush and small weed trees in the back yard. Too bad an O/A torch won't work for that type of stuff.


Rex

jamlit
06-01-2009, 04:24 PM
Please stay out Willy Mac.

To all other members here, please to feed the animals as they wont ever leave afterwards.

David R
06-01-2009, 05:28 PM
It seems we were invaded by a member posting false information. The posts were deleted and all posts related to it. The member is in the penalty box....


David :)

ZTFab
06-01-2009, 10:49 PM
Thanks for getting that handled David.

Here are some more sample pieces that I did in the shop tonight....BUT, I did these with a different technique to show that my normal methods are not the only way to weld.

I appreciate all of the positive comments about my welding, however my techniques are definitely not the only way to get things done.

This is .188" CRS and set as an open corner joint. .030" ER70S-6 wire, C25 gas on my Lincoln PowerMIG 200.

The last pic is an inside corner joint.

These are a little rough since I don't really ever use this technique.

33983

33984

33985

33986

33987

Nitesky
06-01-2009, 11:14 PM
ZTFab
WeldingWeb Craftsman

Man, that is an understatement for sure. WeldingWeb Artist would be more accurate.:drinkup:

Bob Warner
06-01-2009, 11:34 PM
Well Paul, no matter what you do, you sure got a steady hand. I am usually too low or too high or upside down or something and I just can't get that steady. I doubt I could be that steady on a small piece on the welding table let alone on real jobs.

Great work.

ZTFab
06-02-2009, 09:17 AM
ZTFab
WeldingWeb Craftsman

Man, that is an understatement for sure. WeldingWeb Artist would be more accurate.:drinkup:

Thanks Nitesky but like most of the people on this site, I am just a weldor.


Well Paul, no matter what you do, you sure got a steady hand. I am usually too low or too high or upside down or something and I just can't get that steady. I doubt I could be that steady on a small piece on the welding table let alone on real jobs.

Great work.

Thanks Bob. You'll get it with practice.

David R
06-02-2009, 07:56 PM
ZTfab, what wire speed and volts?

come on spill it!

Nice looking stuff.

David :)

ZTFab
06-02-2009, 08:26 PM
Sorry....details, details, :D

It was at voltage tap "C" and wire speed was at 325 on the dial.

This was on my Lincoln PowerMIG 200.

Static-XJ
06-02-2009, 09:33 PM
Since David asked for pictures, I took one and decided to join the conversation. :drinkup:

I spent all day today with short-arc mig. Took three pics with my cell phone while on my lunch break, one of those pics didn't end up blurry. When I'm laying down a bead I'm not trying to achieve a psudo-tig appearance. I am oscillating the puddle for two reasons; first is to ensure that both toes are tied in by getting the arc out on each leg. Second is because I find it very difficult to make a weld with consistent size and profile if I'm not oscillating, counting each oscillation to maintain a rhythm. The oscillation pattern I used for the weld in the picture was ovals, or oval like loops. Joint is a flare bevel, welded with a drag angle. Elsewhere on the part are welds I made downhill in the same joint configuration have a different appearance (flatter and smoother), as position dictated a different technique.

curb guy
06-03-2009, 10:51 PM
hey , guys , while we're on the subject, how close do the rest of you follow the reccomendations for wfs & amps on the "door settings" of you're machines. i always struggle trying to find the "sweet spot" on all my machines. dont get me wrong , the welds look good and , i've never had any real problems with the strength of the welds, but they in no way look anywhere near as good as say a "ZT weld". not trying to hijack the thread, just thought it may be on topic. if not , just say & i'll start another thread . thanks:waving:

ZTFab
06-03-2009, 11:25 PM
The first thing I do is take that sticker and peel it off!! :laugh:

Not really but I might as well. For example the last weld that I posted was done on .188" CRS and the settings were tap voltage "C" and 325 WFS.....the "recommended" setting on the door sticker for that is voltage tap "F" and 350 WFS.

Will that recommended setting work? I'm sure that it could if I wanted to weld while I was running. I run a slow hand speed and tend to slow everything down accordingly.

There are definitely parameters for welding that should be followed but I still believe that almost every person will need different settings depending on technique, comfort, and experience.

I would suggest that you use the settings on the door as a loose guideline and the fine tune them for your hand speed and comfort while making sure you are laying down a proper weld.

fortyonethirty
06-06-2009, 10:22 PM
I have relatively little mig welding experience and lots of tig. I would like to make some points about tig that might change your views of the asthetics of certain welds.

The reason most tig welds have that ridged, "stacked dimes" look is because it's easier. You stop the advancment and then the filler, thats what makes the ridges. To make a perfectly smooth and correct weld is really hard. you would almost need a machine to feed the filler metal for you, sound familiar?

The look can be achevied several different ways, and if the apperance is important (it's almost always important to a tig welder's pride), a good welder will make sure to take their time to make a good weld, and hopefully the apperance takes care of itself.

Atomik777
06-07-2009, 05:09 PM
So i tried the "e" pattern


Mine:

the left side was my 1st attempt the right i turned up the wire speed a shade.

http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q291/atomik777/S7302040-1.jpg

I'm really sorry... but you guys are so awesome i had to try.

maniak
06-08-2009, 01:27 PM
Any weld in particular? I posted a couple of different ones and they would obviously have different settings.

Primarily for the outside corners is what I was thinking about. The ones that Bob used in his thread to get this all going. Thanks

maniak

David R
06-08-2009, 04:35 PM
So i tried the "e" pattern


Mine:

the left side was my 1st attempt the right i turned up the wire speed a shade.

snip

I'm really sorry... but you guys are so awesome i had to try.

What wire and what were your settings?

David :)

Atomik777
06-08-2009, 05:33 PM
bare with me. Its obviously flux

60 amps, .03 wire and aprox 1/2 wire speed on my 120v machine.

I apologise in advance if my setting are kinda vague. I'm just starting out.

LIGoomba
06-17-2009, 09:00 AM
Here's a couple of my attempts at it.

These were some prototype brackets, .125" CRS.

http://www.weldingweb.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=22037&d=1216688643

http://www.weldingweb.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=22040&d=1216688704

This is a truss that I made for a 9" differential housing: I cut the truss from 2"x3"x.125" tubing.

http://www.weldingweb.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=8417&d=1174948947

http://www.weldingweb.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=8420&d=1174949049

And here is the "box" from the previous thread. It is actually a cover for an old rooftop hatch that was de-commissioned. .125" CRS.

http://www.weldingweb.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=9045&d=1177020594

http://www.weldingweb.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=9046&d=1177020611

http://www.weldingweb.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=9047&d=1177020632

http://www.weldingweb.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=9048&d=1177020646

WOW !!! Very nice.

driftstar
06-20-2009, 03:59 AM
Was it neccessary to quote all those pictures to say so little? lol

ZTFab... Awesome work!
Maybe I'll give this a shot if I ever MIG weld over Flux Core again, lol

tmarks11
06-20-2009, 09:14 AM
pictures like that kindof leave you at a loss for words....:cool:

lets see them again....

baronthered
06-20-2009, 05:26 PM
Nice welds there. I never tried steel that way but have done quite a bit of aluminum like that. Around here before the economy took a dive building houseboats was the big industry. I've welded a bunch of them and the Tig look is how they want the welds to look. I'll try and take some pics next time I get a call for some work on one. And did I say nice welding there fellas? :D

lugweld
06-22-2009, 10:31 PM
Well ,

I tried. :rolleyes: I needed to short circuit this so the post flanges wouldn't warp. So I thought what do I have to loose except a little pride. This is the first attempt before the storm came through. Will post more later, I think.

Keep in mind, I was sitting or lying on a concrete floor trying to weld these flanges an inch off the floor. (no where else to work or to jig it up). So I guess I'd give my self a b- maybe...If it hadn't been 110 degrees in the shop, it might have been a b+ if the sweat hadn't been stinging my eyes.

millman52
06-24-2009, 07:30 PM
Here is a weld on a spring latch picked at random form a batch of 100 I welded today. I'm sure this is neither best or worse from the batch & hasn't been cleaned in any way

A-36 HR steel .030 S-6 wire 75/25 mix. Linde VI-253 welding machine I couldn't really tell you the settings as all I have to go by is #'s on a scale of 1-10. unless I have someone watch the gauges while I weld.

MrWelder
07-05-2009, 05:43 PM
Some of my pumpkin seed welds. Simple T joint weld, don't remember the material size as it's been a while since I welded these, something like 1/2 to 1/2 plate. Globular/spray arc. I wasn't really trying to MIG like TIG, but the weld quality is similar so I thought I'd post them.

Sorry for the poor picture quality, I took them at work on my cell phone.

gordon stephenson
07-05-2009, 08:00 PM
Hi Mrwelder.
Lovely consistant beads,fantastic skill required, Can you describe to mere mortals what torch movement and technique you use to achieve such results,

Cheers Gordon.

MCgiver4x4
07-06-2009, 11:15 AM
For my business - custom off road fabrication- it is the customers perception that these types of welds are better. Of course, appearance doesn't really have much to do with the quality. As welders we know that, but for me, aesthetically appealing welds help sales.


Here is a pic of a Dana 60 axle housing I mig welded to the tubes.

those are nice looking welds

Question here its a bunch of spot welds overlapped or are you using a different technique to achieve this ?

MrWelder
07-12-2009, 01:45 AM
Thanks for the nice words Gordon. I use a nice consistent back and forth whipping motion. Slight pause on the backstroke, staying right at the front of the puddle. Thats about it really. And i push almost all the time.

jakazz
07-12-2009, 07:23 AM
Hey I'm a new guy here but I have no problem seeing reposts of ZT's work, and the diff on that other thread nice welding and some really nice fab work.......

pipehack
07-12-2009, 10:16 AM
Hey I'm a new guy here but I have no problem seeing reposts of ZT's work, and the diff on that other thread nice welding and some really nice fab work.......

+1 on that.... His work is the cat meow... I'm new also and just did the wiring in my garage yesterday . I finally get to use my 180c... I'm a former competitive rifle shooter but got back into being a gearhead ... More time at home with my family even if I am in the garage.. ZT.... Can we more of your work with the smaller Mig's ??? Mine is not a 110v but I would really like to know the limits of my 180c.

S obsessed
07-13-2009, 10:25 PM
Well here is some playing around today. I do mostly tig welding since most things I build are smaller automotive related projects. Here is some destructive testing for you guys. I use a sort of circular/looping motion, no forward whip. I never leave the puddle. The machine is turned down about 20% from normal setting. This is 2"x 1/2" bar and a 4" solid round with .023 wire and c25 with a millermatic 211. This test is performed with 2lb bfh and a bajillion swings.
http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x95/sobsessed/IMG_0123.jpg
http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x95/sobsessed/IMG_0124.jpg
http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x95/sobsessed/IMG_0126.jpg
http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x95/sobsessed/IMG_0127.jpg
http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x95/sobsessed/IMG_0128.jpg
http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x95/sobsessed/IMG_0131.jpg
http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x95/sobsessed/IMG_0134.jpg

DSW
07-13-2009, 11:14 PM
S obsessed: In the future please resize the picts 1st before posting so we can read all the info you type. This program cuts off anything over a certain size so we can't see it.


While the weld looked like it took quite a bit to break, I notice 2 things. 1st it looks like the weld itself failed down the center. Not a good thing usually as far as a quality weld. 2nd is that it looks like there was very little penetration into the base material on the bar stock. It's hard to tell from the last pict, but it looks like maybe 1/16" penetration at best from the original flat, thats left on the bottom.

One of the problems with "pretty" mig welds by many. While the weld may look nice asthetically, it can be flawed internally.

S obsessed
07-13-2009, 11:22 PM
First of all notice this was done with .023 wire on very thick cold steel. Definately not something normaly done. The penetration differences by using this technique is less but not fatal. There is 100% fusion of the base metals and the bead including the root. Any thing over 1/8" with this small wire would need beveling and multiple passes since you can not make a 1/2" bead without leaving the puddle on small wire. This was to show that this way of welding does achieve penetration with extreme sizes of metal and wire. It must be done properly or it will not be anygood.

whitehendrix!
07-18-2009, 11:03 PM
ZTFab is a robot.

beautiful work to all of yas.

amazing.

10secgoal
07-19-2009, 02:11 PM
http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/2497/weldedcokecans.jpg

trying to get a grasp on it. 3/32 rod, 1/16 cer tungsten, 30 amps ? I think and about 65 bal

10secgoal
07-19-2009, 02:13 PM
Dang, somehow got confused and posted in the wrong thread. Sorry fellas. Leaving now. :(

onehundredoctane
07-21-2009, 09:20 PM
I just joined today, I can't believe it took me this long to get an account here, but alas I started today. I have a twinscroll, dual waste gate turbo manifold for a project car I've been working on a few years now, if anyone knows about turbocharged engines they will know what the wastegates are for, when the pressure between the exhaust ports on the engine and the flange of the turbo manifold is excessive (mainly at higher RPM's) you want to get that exhaust pressure out, the wastegates allow that excess pressure out, sometimes it is routed back into the cars exhaust, sometimes it is piped right out into the atomosphere, the twin pipes I made are out of 1 3/4 inch stainless with a 16th of a inch wall, I wanted the material to be lightweight, I've never welded stainless before, and have no experience with tig welding so I used a 210v miller with steel wire (not sure the diameter of the wire probably a 0.38) Enough talk, PICS!
http://www.axcessmypics.com/photos/photo04/12/c6/4db5264b4b9d.jpg
cell phone pics suck
http://www.axcessmypics.com/photos/photo04/4d/a1/52e824cf0f64.jpg

smoothed the welds down with a bench grinder and a wire wheel
http://www.axcessmypics.com/photos/photo04/d6/fe/3079ad741cb8.jpg
http://www.axcessmypics.com/photos/photo04/40/19/6e013f7d9918.jpg
maybe I'll paint them now. I'm open to constructive critsism, always looking to get better!

Matt

whitehendrix!
07-21-2009, 10:37 PM
nicce work! watch grinding the welds. wastegates aren't light!

heat + weight + vibration = bad day.

as well, i've heard that on any turbo system, one should fill the pipes to be welded with a shielding gas to keep boogers from forming on the inside.. might potentially end up in the turbine.
i'll try this on my upcoming turbo bike project as a test. picking up a new TIG rig in a week.

PM me (or start another thread) with anything else so as to not derail this thread.

welcome to welding web!

10secgoal
07-21-2009, 10:57 PM
If you paint them, use VHT's paint. Work s VERY well.

onehundredoctane
07-22-2009, 12:05 AM
the tubes I made actually hang from the wastegates no structural support or wait being put on them, I'll get better pics. The wastegates bolt to the turbo manifold, then the tubes I made bolt to the wasetgates merely to divert exhaust out of the engine bay. Rather than make my own turbo manifold I purchased one from Full Race, they know they're stuff! Thanks for the warm welcome guys! I'll have to get some pics of the welders my father and I share. As for impressive stuff, I can't take credit for this piece of art, but as mentioned this is the turbo manifold I mentioned. Hopefully you get a better idea of where my tubes I made are being used.
http://c4.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/48/l_960299a049af4b78bf5b295be806390f.jpg
http://c3.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images02/60/l_2a11446f6929425fbd1b1fc3f8f9777a.jpg
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j31/yota_man/random%20pics/IMG_0456.jpg
^those were my first copies out of mild steel

SORRY IF I HIJACKED THIS THREAD! Back on topic now!

whitehendrix!
07-22-2009, 08:10 PM
oh.... red top.

thats gonna be a sick build.

ed mac
07-24-2009, 09:44 PM
i only read 5 or 6 but why would you take
the time ($$) to make some thing look like
what its not i dont get it would you make your tig
look like mig when i worked for Rolls Royce
i would be fired for wasting time
and i would not allow a welder to wast time
on that who worked for me and ill bet it
it would not pass any certs and this should
not be a stickey

BlindViper
07-27-2009, 09:47 AM
First of all notice this was done with .023 wire on very thick cold steel. Definately not something normaly done.The penetration differences by using this technique is less but not fatal . There is 100% fusion of the base metals and the bead including the root. Any thing over 1/8" with this small wire would need beveling and multiple passes since you can not make a 1/2" bead without leaving the puddle on small wire. This was to show that this way of welding does achieve penetration with extreme sizes of metal and wire. It must be done properly or it will not be anygood.

Not to be a fng but by looking at your pictures I would say that weld is nothing more then pretty. It appears that you less then 1/16 of penetration. If you consider this "less then fatal". I would hate to be around any thing you weld pretty.

lugweld
07-27-2009, 10:20 AM
Ed,
Don't knock a method until you try it. There is a call for asthetics in welding. In fact, there is nothing wrong with this MIG technique when properly done. It does penetrate and fuse properly. As far as taking extra time. It is not time consuming. It just takes extra effort by the welder.



i only read 5 or 6 but why would you take
the time ($$) to make some thing look like
what its not i dont get it would you make your tig
look like mig when i worked for Rolls Royce
i would be fired for wasting time
and i would not allow a welder to wast time
on that who worked for me and ill bet it
it would not pass any certs and this should
not be a stickey

S obsessed
07-27-2009, 11:46 PM
What I mean by not fatal is that there is 100% fusion of the root and the toes. There is no need to have deep penetration unless it is single pass on thick metal. This was definately not how I would have joined these components. I would have used .035 with beveled edges and a root pass along with a cap which would have been the "pretty" one. That would have given me the correct amount of weld to join the larger pieces. I was mearly showing an extreme that you can get 100% fusion with this method, NO cold lap or lack of fusion with the root when performed correctly. It was definately fatal in this situation but using this technique in the correct way stated earlier in this post it definately would have not been fatal. Say you weld 2 3" plates together with a 30 degree bevel, it is not necessary to have deep penetration with each stringer but only to have 100% fusion on all aspects. That is what this method is for. Simply a nice appearance which can be the only pass with the right settings and wire size or a cap for multiple passes. It does take practice. My beads are not nearly as consistant as some others but I do know they are fused.

S obsessed
07-27-2009, 11:53 PM
In all actuality this does not look like tig. No matter how hard I would possibly try I don't believe I could make my tig welds look like my "mig like tig" welds. I get a nice dime stack with tig but it is definately not same as any of these I have seen. Nor have I seen any other tig welds like these. Maybe pics look similar but in person they are totally different. I think this whole thing should be "stack o dimes mig" (or something similar) just to clear the confusion. I never have tried to make my mig look like tig just give it a nice boost, not boring flat beads. It stands out and people will always notice it over regular stringer beads ( which I also use, not saying they are not cool).

dnegative
07-29-2009, 06:09 AM
But the common person will assume they were done with a TIG (and will assume that it is a better weld)

lugweld
07-29-2009, 09:45 AM
A properly done Mig weld is as strong as any properly done tig weld. If it isn't, then it wasn't properly done.

ZTFab
07-29-2009, 11:38 AM
But the common person will assume they were done with a TIG (and will assume that it is a better weld)

A "common" person won't even know what TIG or MIG means. They only know that it was welded.

maarty
07-30-2009, 09:10 PM
I know tig welds can be really pretty; with the ripples and all, but that isn't the only way to make tig beads look. If the heat and travel speed are perfect the rod can be laid in at the same speed as rate of travel, and without zig zagging. The resulting beads look smooth.
I really don't know what the motivation might be to make a mig weld look like a rippled tip weld. When ever possible with mig, and if the thickness allows it, a spray arc should be used without any whipping. On lighter material a globular transfer arc should be used. Only on the lightest material should a short circuiting arc be used.
Whipping should be avoided. Again, why make a mig weld look rippled? A smooth mig weld with equal legs and flat surface is the mark of a pro.

ed mac
07-31-2009, 10:09 PM
Ed,
Don't knock a method until you try it. There is a call for asthetics in welding. In fact, there is nothing wrong with this MIG technique when properly done. It does penetrate and fuse properly. As far as taking extra time. It is not time consuming. It just takes extra effort by the welder.

im not knocking it i think it great but
i dont think its worth being a stickey

Plasma-Head
08-01-2009, 12:01 PM
:drinkup:I cant lie, this is the thread that made me sign up for this forum. :blush:
I love mig/flux core welding and have spend most of my welding life dumping wire.
Let me know what you guys think of these, I ran them quick at work on some scrap diamond plate while the boss was on lunch:nono::p
If I get motivated today i'll go run a tig bead or 2 for comparison.

19ish volts, 230-250 wire feed speed, 75/25 Ar/Co2 gas and a .035 wire being spit out of a millermatic 251 was the weapon of choice.:drinkup:

S obsessed
08-01-2009, 01:51 PM
Looks nice plasma head but it does look a little cold. the toes don't appear to be tied in. looking at the end of the weld it makes me think you were running hot with machine but did a whipping motion with the gun. That has the potential of just laying weld on top of the plate. this is just how it appears to me. It may just be decieving, not knocking the weld, it is very consistent looking.

ZTFab
08-01-2009, 09:53 PM
+1 on that.... His work is the cat meow... I'm new also and just did the wiring in my garage yesterday . I finally get to use my 180c... I'm a former competitive rifle shooter but got back into being a gearhead ... More time at home with my family even if I am in the garage.. ZT.... Can we more of your work with the smaller Mig's ??? Mine is not a 110v but I would really like to know the limits of my 180c.

Thanks pipehack.....

Here is a piece I welded today for a race car, it's the fuel filler neck.

The plate it is welded to is 11ga CRS. I used my Lincoln SP135Plus 110v MIG with .023" ER70S-6 wire, voltage setting "F" and Wire Speed "5".

36894

36895

Powerstroked
08-01-2009, 10:15 PM
Wow, nice work!:drinkup:

pipehack
08-01-2009, 11:28 PM
Damn!!!!!!!! I'm speechless! Awesome!

ZTFab
08-02-2009, 10:52 AM
.... A smooth mig weld with equal legs and flat surface is the mark of a pro.

That is your opinion and not a fact.

revhard
08-02-2009, 11:55 AM
"That is your opinion and not a fact. "

Couldn't agree more.
ZTFab does some amazing welds. The MIG is especially nice. Not easy to do.
I have seen a few pass penetration tests with it, but not many. I have done that technique myself on alot of 14ga buildings in the oil and gas days. Works great.
I have also done smooth welds as mentioned. There is more than one way to skin a cat.
:drinkup:

loudnproud
08-02-2009, 01:12 PM
"That is your opinion and not a fact. "

Couldn't agree more.
ZTFab does some amazing welds. The MIG is especially nice. Not easy to do.
I have seen a few pass penetration tests with it, but not many. I have done that technique myself on alot of 14ga buildings in the oil and gas days. Works great.
I have also done smooth welds as mentioned. There is more than one way to skin a cat.
:drinkup:

i was taught this technique in school of using a cursive L or little e type manipulation along with about 15 other students... we all passed the bend test on 3/8 plate 2g open root, 2 fill pass and 3 pass cap. some were more "pretty" than others but everyone used this type of manipulation. keep in mind all of us had about 8 hours of ever touching a mig gun in our lives before testing.

i also did this on a 8" sch 80 pipe 2g position, i think 70degree groove angle. 4 strap bend test. open root, 2 fill layers and 3 bead cap all with this technique except the root of course. this was my 3rd week ever mig welding and everyone passed. you have to be careful not to go to far back in the puddle. in my opinion it's a sound technique even when not executed perfectly. I've seen some other students in class really butcher it and still pass the bend test with no discontinuities..

David R
08-02-2009, 03:34 PM
That filler neck is beautiful. I doubt it will fall apart either :)

David :)

maarty
08-02-2009, 11:07 PM
The only reason to run a whipping pass with a mig torch is to control too high a heat output. A truly skilled welder sets the amps as high as possible and runs a super smooth bead without all those "tig like" ripples.

What the ripples in these photos disguise is the inability to run a smooth and steady bead.

ZTFab
08-03-2009, 12:05 AM
The only reason to run a whipping pass with a mig torch is to control too high a heat output. A truly skilled welder sets the amps as high as possible and runs a super smooth bead without all those "tig like" ripples.

What the ripples in these photos disguise is the inability to run a smooth and steady bead.

Wow...now your just arguing for the sake of arguing. Again, you are only stating your opinion of what makes a skilled welder. I say that a skilled welder can do both methods.

There are many different techniques that will provide sound welds that will pass inspection.

Since you obviously haven't read this whole thread, here is a post I made earlier about this...




Here are some more sample pieces that I did in the shop tonight....BUT, I did these with a different technique to show that my normal methods are not the only way to weld.

I appreciate all of the positive comments about my welding, however my techniques are definitely not the only way to get things done.

This is .188" CRS and set as an open corner joint. .030" ER70S-6 wire, C25 gas on my Lincoln PowerMIG 200.

These are a little rough since I don't really ever use this technique.

http://www.weldingweb.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=33983&d=1243910390

http://www.weldingweb.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=33984&d=1243910417

http://www.weldingweb.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=33985&d=1243910527

http://www.weldingweb.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=33986&d=1243910600

duaneb55
08-03-2009, 12:13 AM
Yeah. OK. A little rough.

Seriously, who'd you have run that bead for you Paul?:D

ZTFab
08-03-2009, 12:18 AM
Yeah. OK. A little rough.

Seriously, who'd you have run that bead for you Paul?:D

I hired a "professional" welder to do it for me since I am apparently not one. :rolleyes:

lugweld
08-03-2009, 12:28 AM
Maarty,

A true "professional" knows that his way isn't the only way. Well, maybe a secure "professional" that is, or maybe a broadly experienced one. Dime stacking is just as acceptable in MIG welding as it is in anyother form. The local welding school teaches a weave in MIG...something I don't prefer...but they claim it improves the tieing in at the toes. I went to interview once for a job (didn't get it because I wasn't born in an certain asian country...I would have been the only one on the crew that wasn't) that REQUIRED their welds to look just exactly like ZTFfabs. This company manufactured many of the commercial, tractor-trailer carhauler bodies.

duaneb55
08-03-2009, 12:30 AM
I hired a "professional" welder to do it for me since I am apparently not one. :rolleyes:

I figured as much. Thanks for fessin' up.:drinkup:

ZTFab
08-03-2009, 12:34 AM
I figured as much. Thanks for fessin' up.:drinkup:

No problem...I wouldn't want to be a hack and a liar now would I. ;)

maarty
08-03-2009, 12:03 PM
You are right, I didn't read the whole thread; my apologies. Your smooth corner bead there is what I was talking about; that is how it should always look. You have the amps, wire speed, angle and rate of travel all dialed in perfectly. Very nice work.
If I saw a rippled, dime stacked bead there I would have to wonder why it was there, when clearly, to me anyway,
the smooth one is the most superior. It is also the one that would need no dressing. Paint will adhere more evenly and last longer on the smooth one.
Rippled welds are pretty, but why bother, if you know how to weld, as you cleary do?

S obsessed
08-03-2009, 12:18 PM
You are right, I didn't read the whole thread; my apologies. Your smooth corner bead there is what I was talking about; that is how it should always look. You have the amps, wire speed, angle and rate of travel all dialed in perfectly. Very nice work.
If I saw a rippled, dime stacked bead there I would have to wonder why it was there, when clearly, to me anyway,
the smooth one is the most superior. It is also the one that would need no dressing. Paint will adhere more evenly and last longer on the smooth one. Rippled welds are pretty, but why bother, if you know how to weld, as you cleary do?

Superior? Okay.......Needs no dressing? Why dress a perfect weld? In automotive world looks are very important so the weld needs to be shown off. Paint not stickin? Ha ha ha ha! Paint will last on any weld that is properly prepped for paint.

gordon stephenson
08-03-2009, 01:45 PM
Hello Paul,
Filler neck weld SUPERB !! (only wish I could weld Half as bad)

Regards Gordon.

gordon stephenson
08-03-2009, 01:54 PM
Hello Paul,
Filler neck weld SUPERB !! (only wish I could weld Half as bad)

Regards Gordon.

ZTFab
08-03-2009, 03:20 PM
Rippled welds are pretty, but why bother, if you know how to weld, as you cleary do?

You answered your own question. I know how to make a proper weld and also know and understand how to manipulate the puddle to acheive, IMO, a better looking but still structurally sound weld.

I respect your opinion maarty but what I don't respect is your saying that the method that I and many others use is "not professional".

As lugweld mentioned earlier, I think it's the true mark of a professional to have the ability to use many different methods and understand when and how to use them.

David R
08-03-2009, 06:01 PM
When doing a weave with MIG, you need MORE heat to keep a fluid puddle. SO if you are welding the same part with MORE HEAT, then it should be better?

Both ways work. I personally don't need no stinkin dimes. When I am welding bigger stuff and have the heat cranked up, and do a weave, the dimes just show up.

No Dimes

37019

Look at the first few posts of this thread of the dimes. I don't have the consistency or control ZTFab does, but you get the idea.

David

maarty
08-03-2009, 07:42 PM
ZTFab,
I am sorry and apologize; I went a bit overboard there. I still don't see the point of a laying down a whipping or weaving pass, unless it is to join different metal thicknesses and an unequal legged weld is called for.
For the average fillet or corner weld my money is on smooth over rippled. The extra convexity on the face of the rippled weld represents metal that has absolutely no strength contribution to the weld.
In the crevice of the radius of each ripple is a bit of that glass like light brown slag that represents just a little bit more effort to clean before painting; and if it isn't cleaned off one day it will pop off, with the paint on it. Then crevice corrosion has a nice happy place to live.
Again, my apologies on the "professional" crack. I know you are a pro.

Bob Warner
08-03-2009, 09:10 PM
This thread is about HOW to get the look that ZTfab gets. It is not a debate over what is better or whatever anyone tries to make it. This originally started in another thread but got locked over people trying to force it to be about something other than what it is.

HOW TO MAKE A MIG WELD LOOK LIKE THE ONES DONE BY ZTfab (or MIG like TIG).

I would just like to see those interested in learning or teaching how to do this post and those that want to debate if it is the right thing to do or not to take their debate to another thread.

It is the look that I was after when I started this topic in the other thread because it was a customer's demand and if I wanted the job I would have to make it look like ZTfab's welds.

That job is on hold until I can get some practice and get it down. Nobody remotely suggests that it is the look of the weld only and that there does not need to be a good weld. A good weld made to look nice is what we are after. If you can assist me or others in learning to do this, or in my case just how to be perfectly consistent like ZTfab is, please post it. I can get the look but it is sloppy and I now need to learn to be robotic in my movements.

Thanks,

Bob

ZTFab
08-03-2009, 09:17 PM
Hey Bob....listen to some Styx while you weld.

Domo Arigato Mr. Roboto! :D

William McCormick Jr
08-03-2009, 09:45 PM
http://www.Rockwelder.com/Welding/pushchamfer.JPG

This is start and stop slight push angle. Slight chamfer on the part before welding.

Pure Argon. What got me was that this weld I could do with some success, fighting gravity. Meaning it did not fall down to one side so much.

Sincerely,


William McCormick

William McCormick Jr
08-04-2009, 09:11 PM
I reread what I wrote, it should have been, pause and go. Not start and stop. I never cut power to the welder. I just slow or pause for a second. Then move.

Sincerely,


William McCormick

RWS WELDING
08-04-2009, 10:05 PM
The only reason to run a whipping pass with a mig torch is to control too high a heat output. A truly skilled welder sets the amps as high as possible and runs a super smooth bead without all those "tig like" ripples.

What the ripples in these photos disguise is the inability to run a smooth and steady bead.

I happen to think ZT"s welding looks like it was done by someone highly skilled! and if he"s getting paid for it, he can proudly call himself a professional! I also would"nt call those welds a disguise, they look perfect, no undercut, uniform, consistent. nice job!

maarty
08-05-2009, 08:24 AM
I already said I was sorry. ZT put me in my place, and maybe you too should read the whole thread. As ZT already stated, there are aesthetic reasons for his choices. I have my own reasons for not liking them. My language was too strong, and again apologize.

ZTFab
08-05-2009, 09:28 AM
I already said I was sorry. ZT put me in my place, and maybe you too should read the whole thread. As ZT already stated, there are aesthetic reasons for his choices. I have my own reasons for not liking them. My language was too strong, and again apologize.

Thanks for the apology maarty. :drinkup:

The subject is closed IMO. Let's move on.

maarty
08-05-2009, 10:25 PM
Thanks bro, cheers.

G3farms
08-08-2009, 11:41 AM
to me what looks pleasing to the eye in a weld is it being consistant, whether it be the stack of dimes or the slick smooth weld. I like to see both, but on a project they all need to be the same to look really good. Looks are only part of the job though, if the weld fails what does it matter how it looks. About the only time the weld is even noticed is by someone that welds whether pro or hobby guy.

just my thinking

G3

TubularFab
08-12-2009, 02:57 PM
Last week I had the opportunity to tour several interesting motorsports related places around Charlotte, NC with the school's Motorsports Vehicle Technology program. Roush Fenway, Petty Driving Experience, and the Nascar Tech Center were among them. Except for TIG welding a few threaded inserts into theside of a tube, everything was MIG welded. More specifically, EVERYTHING on these cars had welds that look just like ZT's. I was actually very impressed at how consistent and well done all of the welding was. Proper fusion and penetration, not a defect to be seen. But, they had great starting points to work from. The tubing is all mild steel DOM, but it's all ground to size. All of the square and rectangular tube was also immaculately cleaned. There was not the slightest speck of mill scale on anything! Just another example of how important the prep work is in making a beautiful finished product.

Unfortunately cameras were strictly outlawed in all of these areas; I wish I could have taken some close up pics of the welds!

S obsessed
08-12-2009, 05:13 PM
Last week I had the opportunity to tour several interesting motorsports related places around Charlotte, NC with the school's Motorsports Vehicle Technology program. Roush Fenway, Petty Driving Experience, and the Nascar Tech Center were among them. Except for TIG welding a few threaded inserts into theside of a tube, everything was MIG welded. More specifically, EVERYTHING on these cars had welds that look just like ZT's. I was actually very impressed at how consistent and well done all of the welding was. Proper fusion and penetration, not a defect to be seen. But, they had great starting points to work from. The tubing is all mild steel DOM, but it's all ground to size. All of the square and rectangular tube was also immaculately cleaned. There was not the slightest speck of mill scale on anything! Just another example of how important the prep work is in making a beautiful finished product.

Unfortunately cameras were strictly outlawed in all of these areas; I wish I could have taken some close up pics of the welds!

thats pretty cool, You will notice all of ZT's stuff is cleaned of mill scale. Since you turn down the heat a little it is so very important you aren't trying to burn through mill scale or any other stuff. Clean metal is best for all welding especially this.

ZTFab
08-12-2009, 09:41 PM
thats pretty cool, You will notice all of ZT's stuff is cleaned of mill scale. Since you turn down the heat a little it is so very important you aren't trying to burn through mill scale or any other stuff. Clean metal is best for all welding especially this.

90% of a good weld is in the prep. :cool:

onehundredoctane
08-13-2009, 10:40 AM
the tubes I posted up a while back were 16th wall thickness, and stainless material, I used steel wire on a gas assisted mig, a friend of mine mentioned I should have used stainless wire instead, can anyone give me some info as to if that is true? I understand the concept of using the same filler to match the material you are welding but in this instance does it really matter?

EWJimm
08-13-2009, 12:29 PM
DAMN!!!! these are nice. I hope to get like this some day soon :realmad:

JP223
08-23-2009, 03:21 PM
Damn!

Those look great! ZTFab your my hero! What kind od rig are you running?

KHK
08-23-2009, 03:33 PM
onehundreadoctaine, you SHOULD use SS filler on SS material. If you use steel the weld will not be as strong, and of corse will rust.

MrWelder
08-25-2009, 03:02 PM
I rememeber reading a Hobart instruction book that showed ZT's technique of welding in circles / lower case e's. The welds looked exactly like his do. (I think they did them with flux core also, not sure) If they're good enough for Hobart, they're good enough for me! :cool:
Not trying to reopen the "those welds aren't proper argument" btw

ZTFab
08-27-2009, 09:06 PM
What kind od rig are you running?


Lincoln SP135 Plus and a Lincoln PowerMIG 200

Jack Burton
08-29-2009, 01:34 AM
My first post...and sheesh...this forum kicks ***. The work ZTFab, LlGoomba and some of the others are doing is breathtaking.



First of all notice this was done with .023 wire on very thick cold steel. Definately not something normaly done. The penetration differences by using this technique is less but not fatal. There is 100% fusion of the base metals and the bead including the root. Any thing over 1/8" with this small wire would need beveling and multiple passes since you can not make a 1/2" bead without leaving the puddle on small wire. This was to show that this way of welding does achieve penetration with extreme sizes of metal and wire. It must be done properly or it will not be anygood.

I think you got robbed on this one. Whacking a piece is a measure of toughness. MIG welds are always harder and stronger (unless you're using that soft-wire stuff) but generally less tough than the parent metal.

The fact that your weld didn't break until your parent piece had totally deformed due to the impact says a lot. I agree, it was a strange choice of materials to weld...but in the real world, the machine would have failed long before your weld broke. I don't see why your post was maligned.

S obsessed
08-29-2009, 09:53 AM
^ Hey thanks. I think it just got misread was all. Sometimes people don't read post right or read all of the thread from page 1.

ZTFab
08-29-2009, 03:23 PM
My first post...and sheesh...this forum kicks ***. The work ZTFab, LlGoomba and some of the others are doing is breathtaking.


Thanks Jack. I don't recall seeing any welds of LIGoomba's...which ones are you talking about?

Jack Burton
08-29-2009, 08:50 PM
Thanks Jack. I don't recall seeing any welds of LIGoomba's...which ones are you talking about?

Oops, I mistakenly thought that was his welding on that rear end. Evidently it was more of your fine work.:o

ZTFab
08-29-2009, 09:05 PM
Oops, I mistakenly thought that was his welding on that rear end. Evidently it was more of your fine work.:o

No worries...I just thought that I had missed some pics. Thanks again. :drinkup:

daddy
08-29-2009, 10:05 PM
Paul, I got to drive one of those polaris razr's(sp) that you work on, this evening.

WOW!

Very fast, especially in the woods of Pennsylvania.

I can see why someone would want a better cage.

ZTFab
08-30-2009, 03:39 PM
Ya, the RZR's are a blast. Was it an "S" model or a standard RZR LE?

Either way, IMO, they are the best sport UTV you can buy.

...and yes, the factory cage sucks....

fordman
09-15-2009, 11:47 PM
I tried on a few pieces of scrap .188. I cant quite get the seperated dime look. I am terrible!!!

jakazz
10-04-2009, 08:25 AM
So after watching this and the other thread I decided to give it a try,

and by the way fordman, thats a nice weld, even if it doesnt have a dime "look", nice and uniform


first and second try, stopped halfway through, and started again with a different setting

http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg167/jakazz007/DSCF2702.jpg

Third try , just need to get the technique down, and the movement smoother.

http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg167/jakazz007/DSCF2703.jpg

http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg167/jakazz007/DSCF2704.jpg

http://i248.photobucket.com/albums/gg167/jakazz007/DSCF2705.jpg

skullver
10-06-2009, 02:44 PM
nothing like some of the welds on here but some of my better looking beads, been teaching myself to tig and I noticed that my mig control has gotten much better. Lincoln PM215 with .035" wire, 75/25 gas on 3/16" mild steel.
http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a230/skullver/work%20stuff/IMG_2125.jpg
http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a230/skullver/work%20stuff/IMG_2126.jpg

Cofe
10-06-2009, 05:29 PM
Yep MIG with argon shielding gas is the cat's MEOW.....too bad it's expensive.......Yep nice control to mention good job.

A clean fit-up with co2 produces the same results.

Wade
10-24-2009, 03:54 PM
Hey. I'm new to this forum and have been catching up on this thread. ZTFab, those welds are impressive. Nice work. I have been picking up a bunch of tips to try out. I am doing a tour in Iraq right now so that is gonna have to wait. But thanks for some interesting and sometimes comical conversations. It has helped to kill the down time. Wade

ZTFab
10-29-2009, 10:12 PM
Thanks Wade and Thank you for serving our Country and allowing all of us to remain safe at home. You have my deepest respect.

Let me know if you have any questions.

Here is some 11ga (.125") CRS for a shock mount that I'm building. Here is the build thread if anyone is interested. http://weldingweb.com/showthread.php?t=34212

http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m231/zerotolerancefab/Mike%20Vs%20RHino/IMG_2406.jpg

http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m231/zerotolerancefab/Mike%20Vs%20RHino/IMG_2400.jpg

Pookie
10-30-2009, 11:50 AM
Dredging up an old thread, but I enjoyed reading it.

This place truly has some artisans aboard.

I am calling ZTFab out on this thread. There is no way he could have hand welded these pieces. They look machine welded. :p

ZTFab
10-30-2009, 12:28 PM
Stop by my shop Pookie and I'll show you how it's done. :)

Wade
10-31-2009, 12:00 PM
No problem ZTFAB. It really is an honor for me to serve.

Now I remember this whole thread was kinda started because Bob was trying to land a job with a very picky guy. I never did see if Bob got the job. Excuse me if I missed that somewhere. Just curious.

burn it in hot
11-03-2009, 03:59 PM
zt wat were you perrameters for that shock mount you welded wat technique do u use

ZTFab
11-03-2009, 04:55 PM
zt wat were you perrameters for that shock mount you welded wat technique do u use

11ga (.125") material, Open Corner joint, Lincoln SP135Plus welder, Voltage setting "E" , wire speed "4", .023" ER70S-6 wire, .375"-.500" contact tip-to work distance, continuous weld, pulling the gun, C25 gas mix @ 20cfh.

ZTFab
11-03-2009, 04:58 PM
Here's a couple more pieces from the latest build. Same settings and material as the last pic I posted.

http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m231/zerotolerancefab/Mike%20Vs%20RHino/IMG_2425.jpg

http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m231/zerotolerancefab/Mike%20Vs%20RHino/IMG_2428.jpg

http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m231/zerotolerancefab/Mike%20Vs%20RHino/IMG_2429.jpg

burn it in hot
11-03-2009, 07:06 PM
i tried it but i cant get the same ripple formation u do are u whipping or weaving etc.

LarryO
11-03-2009, 07:25 PM
i tried it but i cant get the same ripple formation u do are u whipping or weaving etc.

Try reading the post from the start. I'm sure his technique was detailed.

If i remember correctly it was little e's in the torch movement, but im sure ZT will clarify.

Welding Porn.:D

duckyy
11-08-2009, 09:03 PM
thanks ZTFab for the beautiful work. how did you control the spattering in those weld ?? look like there is none !!

ZTFab
11-08-2009, 10:22 PM
thanks ZTFab for the beautiful work. how did you control the spattering in those weld ?? look like there is none !!

Thanks duckyy.

Proper voltage and wire speed settings will eliminate spatter. Usually, too much voltage will cause a lot of it.

bigduck
11-08-2009, 10:33 PM
Nice welding :drinkup: ZTFab i am amazed at your welding :waving:

mininut
11-17-2009, 01:30 PM
ZTFAB, your welds are excellent man. I tried to replicate but struggled, the only setup i could get it anywhere near was on high power with very slow wire speed with a looping action on the torch as previously described, but even then its just not consistent and sits quite proud! :dizzy: I tried pushing and pulling, pulling is better as you can see where to overlay, i can see why you use this method. :D

I have a SIP super mig150 (bit naff i know), I'm using co2 but know I should be using argoshield or similar (will do next refill)

do you have any pointers that would make it look better?

My Tig looks like tig though :D

I'll try get some pics as they speak a volumes!

M.

mello*vip
11-18-2009, 03:17 PM
http://photos-b.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs071.snc3/13845_1257934442736_1060861728_30800660_260381_n.j pg

^ One of my first beads with my new-to-me Lincoln Power MIG 215. Settings: .035 ER70S6, 150 WFS, Volt=B. 86/14 mix at 18cfh. 3/16 plate to 16? ga 2" square tube (mild), "e-e-e" pattern. Still a long ways to go...

mininut
11-19-2009, 10:02 AM
Thanks, i'll try the "e-e-e-" pattern instead of the looping i was doing. I just couldn't get the welds nice and flat even using high power, i guess co2 isn't the best for presentable welds either! will have a go and post results.

M.

arcstick
11-24-2009, 01:22 AM
Here's a couple of my attempts at it.

These were some prototype brackets, .125" CRS.

http://www.weldingweb.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=22037&d=1216688643

http://www.weldingweb.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=22040&d=1216688704

This is a truss that I made for a 9" differential housing: I cut the truss from 2"x3"x.125" tubing.

http://www.weldingweb.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=8417&d=1174948947

http://www.weldingweb.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=8420&d=1174949049

And here is the "box" from the previous thread. It is actually a cover for an old rooftop hatch that was de-commissioned. .125" CRS.

http://www.weldingweb.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=9045&d=1177020594

http://www.weldingweb.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=9046&d=1177020611

http://www.weldingweb.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=9047&d=1177020632

http://www.weldingweb.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=9048&d=1177020646

are you stepping it or trigger welding it or a combo of both

mininut
11-24-2009, 07:53 AM
ZTFab, are you using a pulsed mig set to get this or is it all down to technique? try as i may i'm struggling to get this effect :dizzy:

Any chance you could do a small video to show off your technique?

M.

BurningMetal
11-25-2009, 12:30 PM
I really half to try this. The look is amazing.

Am I getting this right:

1) use the "e" technique.
2) lower voltage setting than what is normally called for "on the side of the welder."
3) adust wire speed to acommodate the lower voltage setting.

JP223
12-16-2009, 06:21 PM
whats the E technigue?

mello*vip
12-16-2009, 06:25 PM
Means moving the torch in a continuous lowercase cursive "e" pattern.. Some also use a continuous circular pattern..

jdh239
12-21-2009, 06:09 PM
I really half to try this. The look is amazing.

Am I getting this right:

1) use the "e" technique.
2) lower voltage setting than what is normally called for "on the side of the welder."
3) adjust wire speed to accommodate the lower voltage setting.

x2 :help:

mello*vip
12-21-2009, 08:35 PM
Don't post about it... Just get out in the shop and start practicing! :D On my PM215 I have to turn down the WFS a considerable amount from the 'regular' setting, and slow down my travel, or else the bead has a really high profile.

No new posts in this thread in a while? We need some updates from the Mig-like-tig pro's!

Bryce masuk
01-10-2010, 06:23 PM
Or you can do similar looking welds with high wire speed

its all up to the welder (human)

A guy I work with his welds look similar he uses approx 18-20 volts and almost always at 400ipm wire speed or within 30 ipm either way

SSSTANG
01-15-2010, 04:02 AM
For my business - custom off road fabrication- it is the customers perception that these types of welds are better. Of course, appearance doesn't really have much to do with the quality. As welders we know that, but for me, aesthetically appealing welds help sales.


Here is a pic of a Dana 60 axle housing I mig welded to the tubes. http://weldingweb.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=33705&stc=1&d=1243391035TSOR, I assume your differential housing is cast iron, were you using .035 or larger wire? did you preheat the cast iron before welding?

Your weld looks better than when I did mine several years ago. I didn't do one continuous weld. I did one inch welds, spaced one inch apart, then I came back around and filled the spaces. Sorry I don't have pictures.

slagmatic
01-15-2010, 12:15 PM
Ok guys, I'm looking for some advice. I'm doing a lot of finish type work recently, railings and stuff like that. While most of my customers don't want to see any welds, they always say the same thing, "make it look like one piece of metal". But sometimes thats not possible or practical, and when I leave a weld showing I want it to have the typical stacked dimes look.

So I've been practicing some 'mig like tig'. I'm looking for some pointers on how to get these looking more like the pros. These welds are with a MM175, .030 solid wire, 75/25 gas mix, and setting somewhere around 4.25 volt and 50 wire feed. I'm welding 2x2x1/8 square tube.

First weld: I used the 'e' technique. It starts out ok but quickly the dimes turn into V's (pointed not rounded). Also I'm not quite sure how to finish this off so the end looks like crap.

Second weld: is pulsed. I also had a fairly large gap I was trying to work with here, I think .035 wire might work better in this situation? The start looks bad because I had a big gap to fill and I was blowing through, so I turned down the machine and went back over it. With the pulsed mig technique I always get these little indents in the middle of the puddles, I don't like it.

Last picture: of inside corner, this one I used back and forth or a 'c' movement. The start and end look like crap, but the middle is acceptable (just need to be more consistent, but I know that will come with practice).

So give me some pointers, especially on the start and end of the weld. Also when you guys stop a weld half way through and the start again, do you grind the start/end?

tanglediver
01-16-2010, 01:15 AM
* Strength means more than appearance. If they look good, fine. If they are not strong, you tell me.
* Cold beads are easier to stack, but lack proper fusion, heat control is everything.
* Heat builds as you weld, put in only as much heat as needed to acheive proper fusion.

I like the first one. The joint is heating up as you go, which is expected, but you started inside and worked to the outside of the joint, that is good for overall heat management.

First weld: I used the 'e' technique. It starts out ok but quickly the dimes turn into V's (pointed not rounded). Also I'm not quite sure how to finish this off so the end looks like crap.

Second weld: is pulsed. I also had a fairly large gap I was trying to work with here, I think .035 wire might work better in this situation? The start looks bad because I had a big gap to fill and I was blowing through, so I turned down the machine and went back over it. With the pulsed mig technique I always get these little indents in the middle of the puddles, I don't like it.

Last picture: of inside corner, this one I used back and forth or a 'c' movement. The start and end look like crap, but the middle is acceptable (just need to be more consistent, but I know that will come with practice).

So give me some pointers, especially on the start and end of the weld. Also when you guys stop a weld half way through and the start again, do you grind the start/end?
Pulsing a migweld is bad technique, too many dimples make locations for a stress riser to start (and a crack). You have a start and stop at the beginning and end of each bead, that is enough hazard for anyone. Learn to tie them in as seemlessly as possible without resorting to the grinder.
Stops and starts should not be dead in the corners, this is what I have heard here. They say to wrap the corners before you stop or start. A wire wheel is a lot more gentle on finishing off the job. A sanding disc is a bit more agressive, but not as harsh as a grinding wheel. At the end of a weld, it is perfectly logical to grind the end thin, if you know that the next start will cover up the grinder marks. Preheated cold joints wet out at the edges better. Make your initial arc-strike away from the absolute starting point, double the arc back on itself as you fire up the puddle at the absolute starting point, turn forward and begin.

Just some ideas you may kick around if you wish. :)

David R
01-19-2010, 07:33 PM
What size wire and gas?




Or you can do similar looking welds with high wire speed

its all up to the welder (human)

A guy I work with his welds look similar he uses approx 18-20 volts and almost always at 400ipm wire speed or within 30 ipm either way

Reebs
01-19-2010, 08:25 PM
I'm a dumb ***. What does "Pulsing a migweld" mean?
Is it the same as weld then stop for a second then continue to weld stop for a second an so on?

tanglediver
01-20-2010, 03:11 AM
Yes. Single shot with a wire feeder is counter-productive.
It's nice to hear from you David! :)

Bryce masuk
01-24-2010, 01:48 AM
What size wire and gas?

75/25 and .035 it could be straight argon he uses though i would have to check


this guy is very experianced

we use a millers at work though so the shape of the bead is not exactly the same

I find when you have the machine running bang on
the miller machines tend to make a V shape and the lincoln's tend to leave more of a circular shape

his welds are much like "mig like tig"

they are not exactly the same as ZT fabs welds but they definately are consistant and they have a surface like a tig weld

eyeball engineer
01-24-2010, 02:12 AM
I haven't read through this entire thread but those mig like tig welds just look like what I call stitch welding, where you crank up your settings high and just pull the trigger for a slight moment stop move to up to the root and do the same, I think some machines have a setting to do this so each pulse is timed the same and the gas continues to run inbetween, bad *** looking welds for sure..... I don't think this technique would work in a cert test though. not to discredit this style of welding but I think it has it's applications (lighter gauge), not for everything though

Bryce masuk
01-24-2010, 02:54 AM
its a little bit different then that

I would suggest trying a e type motion and see what you come up with
you will notice the effect on the apperance of the weld from using this technique

it is easier to get this type of weld in a joint rather than on a corner weld
so i would suggest trying that first
you shouldnt be stopping just continually doing the motion

welding is a very personal thing your hands are yours alone what works is what works for you

but this is a technique and it does make excellent welds if done properly

give it a shot it wont be a instant thing but you will notice that it is a technique and it does work

essentially it seems you are pushing out the silca slag to the surface in a specific way

eyeball engineer
01-24-2010, 03:09 AM
its a little bit different then that

I would suggest trying a e type motion and see what you come up with
you will notice the effect on the apperance of the weld from using this technique

it is easier to get this type of weld in a joint rather than on a corner weld
so i would suggest trying that first
you shouldnt be stopping just continually doing the motion

welding is a very personal thing your hands are yours alone what works is what works for you

but this is a technique and it does make excellent welds if done properly

give it a shot it wont be a instant thing but you will notice that it is a technique and it does work

essentially it seems you are pushing out the silca slag to the surface in a specific way

I don't think thats what ZTFab does, I know what your thinking, but I can tell by looking at ZTFab's welds that e technique your talking about is not what he is doing. that e or circles is what I used to do as a beginner or with a small mig that doesn't have much umph, I do draw circles sometimes still though

Boostinjdm
01-24-2010, 03:14 AM
I don't think thats what ZTFab does, I know what your thinking, but I can tell by looking at ZTFab's welds that e technique your talking about is not what he is doing. that e or circles is what I used to do as a beginner or with a small mig that doesn't have much umph, I do draw circles sometimes still though

Read the thread. That "e" technique came directly from ZT's mouth 'er keyboard.:D

Bryce masuk
01-24-2010, 03:35 AM
here is a rusty piece i use for bending arch tops

this wasnt cleaned and it already had some big tacks and a few welds to hold the flat bar on the tube good

I did this for practice to try and understand this thread

once I did it I began to understand

its nothing special and my next attempt will surely be better

ZTFab
01-24-2010, 05:07 AM
I haven't read through this entire thread but those mig like tig welds just look like what I call stitch welding, where you crank up your settings high and just pull the trigger for a slight moment stop move to up to the root and do the same, I think some machines have a setting to do this so each pulse is timed the same and the gas continues to run inbetween, bad *** looking welds for sure..... I don't think this technique would work in a cert test though. not to discredit this style of welding but I think it has it's applications (lighter gauge), not for everything though


I don't think thats what ZTFab does, I know what your thinking, but I can tell by looking at ZTFab's welds that e technique your talking about is not what he is doing. that e or circles is what I used to do as a beginner or with a small mig that doesn't have much umph, I do draw circles sometimes still though

I just love how people can admit that they don't read a thread but then claim they can look at what a person has done and "know exactly how they did it"....yet be 100% incorrect.


I'll bet that you don't read or follow instructions very well either....and claim that you know how something works and then when it doesn't you probably blame the equipment. :laugh:

ZTFab
01-24-2010, 05:17 AM
75/25 and .035 it could be straight argon he uses though i would have to check


this guy is very experianced

we use a millers at work though so the shape of the bead is not exactly the same

I find when you have the machine running bang on
the miller machines tend to make a V shape and the lincoln's tend to leave more of a circular shape

his welds are much like "mig like tig"

they are not exactly the same as ZT fabs welds but they definately are consistant and they have a surface like a tig weld

I have found the same thing and can get the Lincoln's to have a "V" shape but have a harder time getting the Miller's to stack dimes. You can see a little more of a "V" shape in the bead on the rear differential housing posted above. I was running a little faster than usual on that.

IMO the Lincoln's have a better sweet spot, arc control, and weld smoother when tuned properly.

Settings, hand speed, joint design/fit-up, and hand motion all dictate the shape of the bead. I had a guy welding in my shop with me for a bit and he worked for a local trailer manufacturer. When he came in for his welding test I was shocked at the settings he chose. Way more voltage and wire speed than I ran but he also welded like he had somewhere else to be. He was a good welder could lay down some IPM but our techniques were night and day.

LarryO
01-24-2010, 05:17 AM
I haven't read through this entire thread but those mig like tig welds just look like what I call stitch welding, where you crank up your settings high and just pull the trigger for a slight moment stop move to up to the root and do the same, I think some machines have a setting to do this so each pulse is timed the same and the gas continues to run inbetween, bad *** looking welds for sure..... I don't think this technique would work in a cert test though. not to discredit this style of welding but I think it has it's applications (lighter gauge), not for everything though

Thats not how a Pulse Welder works.

eyeball engineer
01-24-2010, 06:25 AM
Thats not how a Pulse Welder works.

-larryo I never said it was pulse welding, sorry if I was mis understood, but I do believe, that there is a mig welder that has kinda like a timer that when you pull the trigger it will only weld for a pre determined moment to do what I was saying by stitch welding, "stitch" might be the wrong term also, can't be wrong here or I'll hear it, I guess pulse is a bad choice of word to describe something when it is other meanings in welding

eyeball engineer
01-24-2010, 06:30 AM
I just love how people can admit that they don't read a thread but then claim they can look at what a person has done and "know exactly how they did it"....yet be 100% incorrect.


I'll bet that you don't read or follow instructions very well either....and claim that you know how something works and then when it doesn't you probably blame the equipment. :laugh:

I can see your "e" technique on that rear end housing and those brackets, but on that 1/8" thick box? especially on the corner it looks like you pull the trigger stop move pull the trigger stop move and so on, maybe it's not how you did it, but I think it fair to say that's how you could of done it? I know everyone builds you up on here, but it really isn't that special, not to knock you or anything. Me stating I didn't read the whole thread is kinda for that reason, in case I missed something, it's just cause I was too lazy to read it all, I saw the so called mig tig welds and from my experience that's what I thought. for me to tell -Bryce masuk I don't think that's how you do your wonderful welds was dumb of me to say without reading everything, sorry Bryce my apologies, didn't mean to be such an offensive a$$hole. but like I said it's not a bad guess to say you did your welds the way I was describing, after reading more on this thread it looks like I wasn't the only one who thought that. this thread has 7 pages on it on people that are trying to copy the look of your weld, and I can see why, they are nice, you can achieve that look by the technique I'm describing (on that box) the rear end just looks like plain old mig weld with a weave or "e" pattern. your a good welder ZTfab, I might not be too hip on forum etiquette, and I know I am not the best baddest welder, but I know a little bit and if I can help someone on here that doesn't know as much as me or some one that knows more than me, thats what were all here for right?

ZTFab
01-24-2010, 12:36 PM
I can see your "e" technique on that rear end housing and those brackets, but on that 1/8" thick box?

Well, open your eyes and look at the "box" again. I welded it, I KNOW how it was done. Stop assuming that you know how it was welded and read what I am writing.



it looks like you pull the trigger stop move pull the trigger stop move and so on, maybe it's not how you did it, but I think it fair to say that's how you could of done it?

That could be fair to say....but you didn't ask or even guess, you said that you knew that is how I welded as if you had seen it done first hand. What would have been fair is if you had read the entire thread and not try to come off as some know-it-all and make false statements about my work.


...I know everyone builds you up on here, but it really isn't that special, not to knock you or anything. Me stating I didn't read the whole thread is kinda for that reason, in case I missed something, it's just cause I was too lazy to read it all, I saw the so called mig tig welds and from my experience that's what I thought.

I don't need my ego stroked but apparently you do. I have said it a million times, I sincerely appreciate that people admire my work. My technique(s) are NOT the only way to do things and I have learned from and admire a great deal of work posted by fellow weldors on this and many other sites. The fact that I have learned to do things a certain way and have earned the respect of just a few people is humbling. If they have a desire to learn how I do something I have no reservations in passing along the 12 years of knowledge I have acquired, and hopefully it can be reciprocated and I can learn something along the way too.

You made an uneducated statement about the work in this thread. I don't care how many welds you have looked at, the information about the specific techniques are explicitly spelled out here. Your lack of desire to read that information and become informed is what bothers me. You said that you knew how those parts were welded yet make the disclaimer that you didn't read the thread as if that relieves you from being incorrect.



... I know I am not the best baddest welder, but I know a little bit and if I can help someone on here that doesn't know as much as me or some one that knows more than me, thats what were all here for right?

I'm not the best baddest weldor either. I look at the work posted by members like Brooks, Engloid, etc...and am in complete awe of their capabilities. It's not about being or thinking that you are the best. No matter how good I may or may not be I always feel that I have room for improvement and a necessity to learn.

You are not doing anybody any favors by making incorrect statements and being blatantly uneducated. This site and others are a tremendous resource that I wish had been around 10 years ago. You will come out miles ahead by reading the wealth of information that is available. How do you expect to gain, retain, or pass along knowledge that you are too lazy to acquire?

eyeball engineer
01-24-2010, 01:19 PM
:drinkup::drinkup:
Well, open your eyes and look at the "box" again. I welded it, I KNOW how it was done. Stop assuming that you know how it was welded and read what I am writing.




That could be fair to say....but you didn't ask or even guess, you said that you knew that is how I welded as if you had seen it done first hand. What would have been fair is if you had read the entire thread and not try to come off as some know-it-all and make false statements about my work.



I don't need my ego stroked but apparently you do. I have said it a million times, I sincerely appreciate that people admire my work. My technique(s) are NOT the only way to do things and I have learned from and admire a great deal of work posted by fellow weldors on this and many other sites. The fact that I have learned to do things a certain way and have earned the respect of just a few people is humbling. If they have a desire to learn how I do something I have no reservations in passing along the 12 years of knowledge I have acquired, and hopefully it can be reciprocated and I can learn something along the way too.

You made an uneducated statement about the work in this thread. I don't care how many welds you have looked at, the information about the specific techniques are explicitly spelled out here. Your lack of desire to read that information and become informed is what bothers me. You said that you knew how those parts were welded yet make the disclaimer that you didn't read the thread as if that relieves you from being incorrect.




I'm not the best baddest weldor either. I look at the work posted by members like Brooks, Engloid, etc...and am in complete awe of their capabilities. It's not about being or thinking that you are the best. No matter how good I may or may not be I always feel that I have room for improvement and a necessity to learn.

You are not doing anybody any favors by making incorrect statements and being blatantly uneducated. This site and others are a tremendous resource that I wish had been around 10 years ago. You will come out miles ahead by reading the wealth of information that is available. How do you expect to gain, retain, or pass along knowledge that you are too lazy to acquire?

you win, to lazy to respond to that, or maybe not smart enough, this has gone far enough and now is dumb. good job

zapster
01-24-2010, 01:23 PM
The only person anyone has to be better than is THEMSELF!!!

:D

...zap!

TEK
01-24-2010, 02:03 PM
The only person anyone has to be better than is THEMSELF!!!

:D

...zap!

absolutely brilliant......:rolleyes:


so, if my daughter comes over today and throws a couple of quick passes, then I help her for 5 minutes and she ' gets better than herself'...she can go get a job welding bridges, right???:laugh::rolleyes::rolleyes:

brilliant.....

yorkiepap
01-24-2010, 02:24 PM
Hey TEK,
I think most would easily understand Zaps' comment as to mean that bettering oneself really is the goal to advance for ones' own confidence & satisfaction. It would apply to both the home hobbyist & one who has a welding career. It strengthens ones' confidence & defines a persons' determination to strive to become better. It benefits everyone. Your snide remark was quite ridiculous & analogy pure diatribe. California.....must be in the water.

Denny

ZTFab
01-24-2010, 02:56 PM
Your snide remark was quite ridiculous & analogy pure diatribe. California.....must be in the water.

Denny


And the same could be said for your remark about California, Denny.

Don't stereotype people based on where they live.

TEK
01-24-2010, 03:18 PM
Hey TEK,
I think most would easily understand Zaps' comment as to mean that bettering oneself really is the goal to advance for ones' own confidence & satisfaction. It would apply to both the home hobbyist & one who has a welding career. It strengthens ones' confidence & defines a persons' determination to strive to become better. It benefits everyone.
Your snide remark was quite ridiculous & analogy pure diatribe. California.....must be in the water.

Denny

Denny, you are quite correct in your statement, it could have been better stated by both Mr. Zap, and by myself. Competition against yourself is an admirable trait, and is sorely needed in todays world...however, in my trade, you have to please more than yourself...there are inspectors and quality control people that can be very picky, as you well know...

My remark may have been out of line, but, words are like bullets....If I had thought about it a bit more, maybe I wouldnt have taken the shot...but I did...sorry you felt like stepping into the line of fire.....

My apologies to you if I offended you....and to any others that may have taken offense...'twas not my intent...

My intent was to point out that blanket 'feel good' statements, like Mr Zap's, dont do much good and are not very informative...maybe my California sarcasm got lost in translation...:waving:....

Rojodiablo
01-24-2010, 03:30 PM
Y'all are killing me here! Zap's point is pretty poignant; the only person in life you really need to best is yourself. Whether it's welding, or driving a car, whatever. If you did it yesterday, and you're gonna do it again tomorrow, then the best you can do is do it better than you did it yesterday. After a while, this will become a graduated curve, and you will be experienced/ good enough that you won't improve all the time. But you WILL find little things that can make you better at stuff you do. And that's the part that is important.

FWIW, I have welded like Paul(ZT) a couple times. Never have been able to repeat his consistency with a mig gun. But I try, each time I weld. And I do get a bit better with certain things I figure out along the way.

zapster
01-24-2010, 04:53 PM
Paul..
I only have one thing to ask YOU...
Not everyone else here..


WHAT THE HE!! HAPPENED TO YOU? :rolleyes:

...zap!

ZTFab
01-24-2010, 05:31 PM
Paul..
I only have one thing to ask YOU...
Not everyone else here..


WHAT THE HE!! HAPPENED TO YOU? :rolleyes:

...zap!

Which Paul Are you typing to?

...either way, it seems as if your question would be better suited for a PM.

Bryce masuk
01-24-2010, 05:32 PM
I can see your "e" technique on that rear end housing and those brackets, but on that 1/8" thick box? especially on the corner it looks like you pull the trigger stop move pull the trigger stop move and so on, maybe it's not how you did it, but I think it fair to say that's how you could of done it? I know everyone builds you up on here, but it really isn't that special, not to knock you or anything. Me stating I didn't read the whole thread is kinda for that reason, in case I missed something, it's just cause I was too lazy to read it all, I saw the so called mig tig welds and from my experience that's what I thought. for me to tell -Bryce masuk I don't think that's how you do your wonderful welds was dumb of me to say without reading everything, sorry Bryce my apologies, didn't mean to be such an offensive a$$hole. but like I said it's not a bad guess to say you did your welds the way I was describing, after reading more on this thread it looks like I wasn't the only one who thought that. this thread has 7 pages on it on people that are trying to copy the look of your weld, and I can see why, they are nice, you can achieve that look by the technique I'm describing (on that box) the rear end just looks like plain old mig weld with a weave or "e" pattern. your a good welder ZTfab, I might not be too hip on forum etiquette, and I know I am not the best baddest welder, but I know a little bit and if I can help someone on here that doesn't know as much as me or some one that knows more than me, thats what were all here for right?

By no means was I offended, no name calling happened and no arguing as far as I could tell

The reality in life is nothing is as it seems, you must prove whatever you want to know to yourself.

im pretty sure this works for everything, the fact you thought things were done differently then said means you understand what i mean by this

Now its up to you, and just because you cant do something in the first attempt doesnt mean its not possible

zapster
01-24-2010, 05:44 PM
Which Paul Are you typing to?

...either way, it seems as if your question would be better suited for a PM.

Ditto..
We need to chat.
How 'bout you CALL me...
I'll take the charges.

I'll send the # via P/M..



...zap!

slagmatic
01-25-2010, 12:49 PM
I wish this forum had a feature; where posts from welders with known talent are bold or bigger, and posts from tools like 'eyeball engineer' fade into the background.

It sucks to come here in my very limited time to look for good information and have to read pages of nonsense from people who have no idea what they are talking about. Makes filtering the good info from the bad a real PITA.

Lets get this thread back on topic and see some more pictures of the dimes, and discussions about the techniques.

eyeball engineer
01-25-2010, 05:41 PM
I wish this forum had a feature; where posts from welders with known talent are bold or bigger, and posts from tools like 'eyeball engineer' fade into the background.

It sucks to come here in my very limited time to look for good information and have to read pages of nonsense from people who have no idea what they are talking about. Makes filtering the good info from the bad a real PITA.

Lets get this thread back on topic and see some more pictures of the dimes, and discussions about the techniques.

hey, think what you want, this thread has turned into an argument. I feel like you guys are taking this too far, my talents have gotten me by, I know what I'm talking about, just because I might have put my foot in my mouth about one thing doesn't mean I'm a complete dumba$$. and I still stand by the technique I am describing to produce welds of the "mig like tig" look. I apologize in saying that ztfab did them the way I was describing when he clearly stated before my post that is not how he did so. I'm sorry ZTFab, I'm just human. I am a certified welder so that should stand for something, but I don't need to defend my abilitys to you and I never meant to come into this thread with the tone that some of you have came at me with. I'll post some pics of my dimes next time I do something that warrants welding of the nature that pretains to this thread and then come ahead and bash me if you want. call me lazy for not reading the entire thread and commenting, thats fine but don't try to discredit me and my knowledge of welding. sorry to bother you folks I'll go hide in my hole. good day

P.S. PM me if you feel the need to say something to me anymore on this so we can actually let the thread go back to what it was for. thanks

ZTFab
01-25-2010, 09:21 PM
I wish this forum had a feature; where posts from welders with known talent are bold or bigger, and posts from tools like 'eyeball engineer' fade into the background.

It sucks to come here in my very limited time to look for good information and have to read pages of nonsense from people who have no idea what they are talking about. Makes filtering the good info from the bad a real PITA.

Lets get this thread back on topic and see some more pictures of the dimes, and discussions about the techniques.

If there is someone in particular that you want to ignore, you can choose the "ignore" feature in their profile.

Click on the person's name and it will take you to their profile. Look for the drop down arrow titled "USER LISTS" which is just below their name and above their latest activity.

Click that arrow and select "ADD TO IGNORE LIST". It will block out all posts from that user. It works great.

ZTFab
01-25-2010, 10:19 PM
To get back on track...

Here are a couple of pieces I welded a few weeks ago for a friend's Chenowth Explorer Sand Rail.

These are the outer IRS pivots for the 3x3 trailing arms. They house the heim ends that are retained with a 7/8" grade 8 bolt. These alleviate the bushing ends for the stock style torsion bars since this car has coilovers and bypass shocks.

3/16" CRS. Hand cut on my band saw. 10 ga CRS weld on washer and cover plate.

http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m231/zerotolerancefab/Chris%20Chenowth%20Explorer/IMG_2554.jpg

http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m231/zerotolerancefab/Chris%20Chenowth%20Explorer/IMG_2560.jpg

http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m231/zerotolerancefab/Chris%20Chenowth%20Explorer/IMG_2563.jpg

http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m231/zerotolerancefab/Chris%20Chenowth%20Explorer/IMG_2565.jpg

http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m231/zerotolerancefab/Chris%20Chenowth%20Explorer/IMG_2567.jpg

slagmatic
01-26-2010, 05:12 AM
EXCELLENT ZTMachine!

JLE-ENT.
01-26-2010, 01:27 PM
ZTFab, I am an accomplished MIG weldor as well (will soon post some pics) but I wanted to tell you firsthand you've laid some of the best MIG welds I've seen. Awsome job Paul!

cajun welder
01-26-2010, 08:14 PM
ZTFab, thats some beautiful welds, and I was wandering if you could tell me what your settings are, volts,wire speed, wire size, flow meter, type of gas.

Thanks

ZTFab
01-26-2010, 10:04 PM
Thanks guys.

JLE-ENT...I'd love to see your work.



ZTFab, thats some beautiful welds, and I was wandering if you could tell me what your settings are, volts,wire speed, wire size, flow meter, type of gas.

Thanks

I used my Lincoln Power MIG 200 for this. Voltage was tap "C" and wire speed was 225ipm on the dial. The voltage range of the PowerMIGs is 13.5-22V so Tap C is ~16 volts. Wire is .030" ER70S-6 with C25 @ 15cfh.

JLE-ENT.
01-26-2010, 11:00 PM
ZTFab, I'll post ya some pics when I get back home. I'm currently (for the last 10 months, actually) working a job in Jersey City. I try to get back to Ohio every other week. The last project I worked on was a liquid brine mixture holding tank for a county truck. It is approx. 200 gallon and rectangular shaped rather than round so that it could fit in behind an International DT466 truck cab and in front of a dump bed. Made from 3/16" sheet steel, and lined with Husky Liner inside for corrosion resistance. It has a mix of my .025" ER70S-6 and .045" Lincoln UltraCore 71M outershield wire welds (the latter for the lifting lugs).

Jeremy

JohnnyWelder
01-26-2010, 11:23 PM
ZTFAB are you using a pulsed mig?

The link here shows a comparison of a Tig bead and a Pulsed Mig Bead.

http://www.millerwelds.com/education/articles/images/Fig.4-BeadComarisonlr.jpg


Full article on the Miller site:

http://www.millerwelds.com/resources/articles/Pulsed-MIG-TIG-Ideal-for-Thin-Gauge-Alloys-GMAW-GTAW/

ZTFab
01-26-2010, 11:43 PM
ZTFab, I'll post ya some pics when I get back home. I'm currently (for the last 10 months, actually) working a job in Jersey City. I try to get back to Ohio every other week. The last project I worked on was a liquid brine mixture holding tank for a county truck. It is approx. 200 gallon and rectangular shaped rather than round so that it could fit in behind an International DT466 truck cab and in front of a dump bed. Made from 3/16" sheet steel, and lined with Husky Liner inside for corrosion resistance. It has a mix of my .025" ER70S-6 and .045" Lincoln UltraCore 71M outershield wire welds (the latter for the lifting lugs).

Jeremy

Sounds like a hell of a project, I'd like to see it.


ZTFAB are you using a pulsed mig?

The link here shows a comparison of a Tig bead and a Pulsed Mig Bead.

http://www.millerwelds.com/education/articles/images/Fig.4-BeadComarisonlr.jpg


Full article on the Miller site:

http://www.millerwelds.com/resources/articles/Pulsed-MIG-TIG-Ideal-for-Thin-Gauge-Alloys-GMAW-GTAW/


Nope. I use either my Lincoln SP135PLUS 110v MIG or my Lincoln PowerMIG 200....both in short circuit transfer mode. The SP135 is outfitted with .023" 70S-6 and the 200 has .030" 70S-6 and both run C25 shielding gas.

Neither have any "stitch", "spot timer", or "pulsed arc" modes. Just an "ON" switch, voltage, and wire speed controls. And as previously mentioned, I do not manually "pulse" the trigger when welding....only continuous welds.

JohnnyWelder
01-27-2010, 12:06 AM
Welds look great.

Can you show us some penetration shots, and maybe do a test on one of these welds when you get a chance. Wouldnt mind my mig welds looking like this. Just want to see what penetration and stress on these looks like.

JLE-ENT.
01-27-2010, 12:07 AM
Sounds like a hell of a project, I'd like to see it.






It wasn't too bad. The panels didn't sit for long so I didn't have much of a warpage issue and they were all pre-cut pretty damn close. A little fit-up, a few tacks, and begin the production weld!! The PowerMig140 (110v, but I'm sure you know that) was a little smaller machine than I wanted to use, but the customer provided the wire. I got 8 - 11lb. spools of ER70S-6 .025" and only used two for the project. Made out pretty good, I think! I'll send you some pics when I can, Paul. It wasn't very big, but sure was heavy! Oh, and as an afterthought, I also ended up (can't remember how, refer to bottom line in my signature) with a 12lb. spool of .035" Lincoln Outershield 71M. I tried as a goof to run it in my 140, and no go. Just not enough juice to effectively run dual shield wire.

ZTFab
01-27-2010, 12:36 AM
Welds look great.

Can you show us some penetration shots, and maybe do a test on one of these welds when you get a chance. Wouldnt mind my mig welds looking like this. Just want to see what penetration and stress on these looks like.

I'll see if I can get some time to do that. I work two jobs and don't have much free time....in fact, I've been screwing off on the internet a little too much lately and have a ton of work to get done.. :eek:

JohnnyWelder
01-27-2010, 02:41 AM
Do you think you can make a vid of you dropping those dimes with the mig. Walk us through the process?

Supe
01-27-2010, 08:26 AM
I've got to say, all that was needed is to follow Paul's instructions.

The biggie is the wire feed speed. On a little 110v MIG with .030 wire, I duplicated the "look" dead nuts on after about 5 minutes of fiddling, and I hadn't even picked up that MIG gun in at LEAST 3 years. All I had to do was turn down the wire feed speed considerably more than I thought I was going to have to. This let me move a good bit slower without creating an excessively convex weld. Then just toss in that e shaped oscillation. Didn't matter if I was pulling, pushing, or perpendicular. The thing I liked, is that it pushes the silicon that forms on the surface to the outer edges of the "dimes" as opposed to along the weld toe to facilitate easier removal.

As far as soundness of the weld, I have no doubts about it. The discoloration of the heat affected zone was a clear indicator that average overall heat input was right on part with running a stringer with no oscillation, and the toes wet out nicely.

I've got to admit Paul, after running MIG in this configuration and making it look as nice as it did, I may find myself being lazy and keeping the TIG off in the corner of the shop a lot more often!

Reebs
01-27-2010, 11:17 AM
Supe I have looked for Pauls instructions and can not find them can you help me locate them?
I have a Miller 180 I'm not sure what short circuit transfer mode is. Can someone help me out?
Supe you refer to the e shaped oscillation. Does that mean picture writing the letter e with the end of the wire?
Do not forget I'm a hoddy welder so don't kill me for my questions.

JohnnyWelder
01-27-2010, 11:27 AM
I've got to say, all that was needed is to follow Paul's instructions.

The biggie is the wire feed speed. On a little 110v MIG with .030 wire, I duplicated the "look" dead nuts on after about 5 minutes of fiddling, and I hadn't even picked up that MIG gun in at LEAST 3 years. All I had to do was turn down the wire feed speed considerably more than I thought I was going to have to. This let me move a good bit slower without creating an excessively convex weld. Then just toss in that e shaped oscillation. Didn't matter if I was pulling, pushing, or perpendicular. The thing I liked, is that it pushes the silicon that forms on the surface to the outer edges of the "dimes" as opposed to along the weld toe to facilitate easier removal.

As far as soundness of the weld, I have no doubts about it. The discoloration of the heat affected zone was a clear indicator that average overall heat input was right on part with running a stringer with no oscillation, and the toes wet out nicely.

I've got to admit Paul, after running MIG in this configuration and making it look as nice as it did, I may find myself being lazy and keeping the TIG off in the corner of the shop a lot more often!

Slowing down the wire speed will either cause you to lose the arc or burnback no? I really would like to see a vid, of someone setting up the mig, doing a bead, showing the dimes, penetration and strength. That would be great.

tanglediver
01-27-2010, 12:14 PM
Slowing down the wire speed will either cause you to lose the arc or burnback no? I really would like to see a vid, of someone setting up the mig, doing a bead, showing the dimes, penetration and strength. That would be great.

Post it up when you finish! ;)

joedirt1966
01-27-2010, 03:52 PM
Admiring the artwork!

oxy moron
01-27-2010, 05:15 PM
I use either my Lincoln SP135PLUS 110v MIG or my Lincoln PowerMIG 200....both in short circuit transfer mode. The SP135 is outfitted with .023" 70S-6 and the 200 has .030" 70S-6 and both run C25 shielding gas.
Neither have any "stitch", "spot timer", or "pulsed arc" modes. Just an "ON" switch, voltage, and wire speed controls. And as previously mentioned, I do not manually "pulse" the trigger when welding....only continuous welds.

thats not true, i've seem ZTFab weld with a Tri-corder (a la star-trek):jester::jester:

seriously, there's nothing special about his mig welders. They didn't have any special "modes" on them. Just run of the mill Lincoln mig welders, which is making this way more frustrating.

Not to say that I can do this, at least with any sort of consistency... but following the instruction and practice will make it happen eventually. Practice some more will make it happen more consistently, i'm sure. I spent two hours making welds practically non-stop, and was able to produce the stacked-dime look... it just didn't happen every time. couple of months goes by, and i didn't touch the mig, now i have to start from scratch again.

now i just gotta figure out how to prevent the soot around my mig welds.

joedirt1966
01-27-2010, 06:21 PM
I can't maintain the arc at this distance.
What setting? Stun or Kill?
Jackson EQC Variable shade contacts?
Looks like Scotty has a little sunburn. :realmad:

David R
01-27-2010, 07:25 PM
I have been following along from the beginning.

When I weave with mig, I turn the heat up a lot because I am moving the gun faster.

Look at the first post 3/16" @ 200 amps.

This gives more penetration. If I was moving in a slow straight line with the same settings it would burn through. That is how I see it works.

If ZTfab wants to send me a sample I will gladly etch it and post pictures. I'll do some of my own and etch them too.

David

Reebs
01-27-2010, 07:38 PM
Dave a weave is simply moving back and forth as you progress. Correct? The reason I ask is was BS'ing with some welders the other day and everyone seemed to have a different term for this and that. I'm no welder just a guy tryiing to learn

Reebs
01-27-2010, 08:03 PM
Is this picture the e tech. mentioned earlier? (looks like an e to me)
And is the second a picture of the weave?

tanglediver
01-27-2010, 10:09 PM
They are talking about cursive lower case letter ee's.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~right there~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~V~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

S obsessed
01-27-2010, 11:42 PM
^ a lower case cursive L is probably easier to understand since no one sees the e as that style I am guessing. Here is some screwing around I did tonight while I had some .023 wire in the millermatic 211. Machine not quite at max power ;).
http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x95/sobsessed/IMG_0485.jpg

oxy moron
01-28-2010, 01:53 AM
I've tried cursive L, but the resulting bead is more like "V" shaped: <<<<<<
I've also found that when i do cursive E, it also looked the same. I get the Tig look only when i do the cursive L horizontally. I move the torch to the right twice as long as i think i should, then come come back to the circle, so its more like " ---------" then a capital "C"


I can't maintain the arc at this distance.
What setting? Stun or Kill?
Jackson EQC Variable shade contacts?
Looks like Scotty has a little sunburn. :realmad:

well, that depends on which version of the tri-corder you're talking about. Obviously, the "captain Kirk" era is pre-inverter technology, so you have to create a "ZT-weld" function and manually set the parameters. The Picard-era tri-corder is definitely inverter technology, so its got auto-weaving function... if you look at the manual, you can set the bead shape to <<<<< or CCCCCC or OOOOOO.
there's no need for Jackson EQC variable shade contacts... tricorder auto senses the arc and provides an optical shade force field(its invisible, but its there).
This is what caused a slight rift between Commander DATA and Jordi. Data turned off the auto-shade function on his tricorder since he's got auto dimming optical sensors, when Jordi borrowed the said tricorder to fix a leak in the Core-containment tube, Jordi was blinded! thats why he had to wear that device that covers his eyes.

geez, i'm such a geek.

Supe
01-28-2010, 08:00 AM
Slowing down the wire speed will either cause you to lose the arc or burnback no? I really would like to see a vid, of someone setting up the mig, doing a bead, showing the dimes, penetration and strength. That would be great.


No. I turned the WFS down to a bit before the point where it would burn back and tightened my stickout just a hair. Whereas a straight stringer motion would create a given size fillet with the faster wire feed speed, turning it down and oscillating the "e" shape while slowing down some created the same size weld from toe to toe with a slightly convex profile.

Broccoli1
01-28-2010, 07:01 PM
Supe I have looked for Pauls instructions and can not find them can you help me locate them?
I have a Miller 180 I'm not sure what short circuit transfer mode is. Can someone help me out?
Supe you refer to the e shaped oscillation. Does that mean picture writing the letter e with the end of the wire?
Do not forget I'm a hoddy welder so don't kill me for my questions.

This will explain the different Transfer Modes
http://www.praxair.com/praxair.nsf/0/c56dbfa8e80d0dbd85256ab300140b28/$FILE/P-8126.pdf



"e shaped oscillation" yes, just write the Lower case cursive "e"/ loops

Jeromy
01-29-2010, 03:52 AM
ZTFab, I have seen your work in this and other forums. You sir are a welding/fabrication God! I hope some day I can be half of the welder you are.

I played around this evening attempting your technique. Definitely need a ton more practice. thanks for posting your instructions and I will keep up the practice and if I can get a decent looking result I will post it up.

Reebs
01-29-2010, 11:15 AM
I tried and failed to stack dimes last night. I had limited time so no major stress. More attempts tonight. So The tech. is turn the wire feed down and try to make cursive lower case letter ee's.

Rojodiablo
01-29-2010, 12:14 PM
I tried and failed to stack dimes last night. I had limited time so no major stress. More attempts tonight. So The tech. is turn the wire feed down and try to make cursive lower case letter ee's.

That's the basics of it. I will run my Miller 175 at a heat of 4.5 to 6, and a wire speed with ..023 of 5-6, and a wire speed of 3.5-5 with .30 wire. With .o35 wire, on 1/4" material, I will run a fairly short stick out, and a speed of 3-4, andn amps setting of 6-7. You pretty much burn that one in, and it works well on the thicker material. With a thick material, i will hit the start area for 5 seconds with a Mapp torch, it gives you a really clean start. Not necessary on 1/8" or 3/16" materials, but the same effect.

Reebs
01-29-2010, 12:47 PM
Thanks I was trying thin stuff, plus my garage is cold probably 10F last night. I assume the cold temp. would have an effect.

David R
01-29-2010, 06:07 PM
I make overlapping circles with the forward direction. For a fillet I make sure I am going UP new metal on the forward stroke then back down through the puddle to add more filler.
Counterclockwise left to right. I guess its the same as eeees.

I do not do this for looks, I do it because I can run the machine much hotter and I can go faster. Look at the picture in the first post.

I See Mr. Obsessed used all she had on plate .o47" thick. The rule of thumb is 1 amp for each .001" of plate for a one pass weld. SO you should be using 47 amps. Instead we are using 200. With that kind of heat you have to move fast too keep from burning through. Good penetration and more inches per minute welded or more wire burned per minute.

That is a fine looking weld. S obsessed.

David :)

DSW
01-29-2010, 11:01 PM
I make overlapping circles with the forward direction. For a fillet I make sure I am going UP new metal on the forward stroke then back down through the puddle to add more filler.
Counterclockwise left to right. I guess its the same as eeees.

I do not do this for looks, I do it because I can run the machine much hotter and I can go faster. Look at the picture in the first post.

I See Mr. Obsessed used all she had on plate .o47" thick. The rule of thumb is 1 amp for each .001" of plate for a one pass weld. SO you should be using 47 amps. Instead we are using 200. With that kind of heat you have to move fast too keep from burning through. Good penetration and more inches per minute welded or more wire burned per minute.

That is a fine looking weld. S obsessed.

David :)

David, I'm guessing that MM211 was being used on 110v not 220v, That means he was probably running closer to 120-140 amps. If I set my machine on 200 amps on steel that thin I doubt I would have no time to be making eeee's. I will agree the weld looks nice from what I can see.

.

S obsessed
01-29-2010, 11:04 PM
Actually I was pretty close to the parameters listed on the door. It was on 220v. The little smiley wink guy was supposed to let you know I was joking about it being cranked up. I think my voltage was at 2.5 and the wire speed at 30 or something like that.

dpac
02-01-2010, 04:01 AM
I make overlapping circles with the forward direction. For a fillet I make sure I am going UP new metal on the forward stroke then back down through the puddle to add more filler.
Counterclockwise left to right. I guess its the same as eeees.

I do not do this for looks, I do it because I can run the machine much hotter and I can go faster. Look at the picture in the first post.

I See Mr. Obsessed used all she had on plate .o47" thick. The rule of thumb is 1 amp for each .001" of plate for a one pass weld. SO you should be using 47 amps. Instead we are using 200. With that kind of heat you have to move fast too keep from burning through. Good penetration and more inches per minute welded or more wire burned per minute.

That is a fine looking weld. S obsessed.

David :)

I do exactly as above, basically just so I can go faster. I also find it much easier to join different thicknesses of steel together.

This is 3mm @ 270amps

David R
02-01-2010, 07:20 AM
DSW you are probably right, Mr. Obsessed thank you for clearing it up.

Doing a bucket edge today, I'll see what I can do.

Weld on!

David R
02-03-2010, 08:31 PM
I said I would give it a shot. .045 Thermal Arc wire, 225 ipm 19.5 (I think) volts C/25. 5/8"- 3/4" plate (I never measured it) to 3/16 mild steel.

45496

overlapping circles Straight in or push.

David

JLE-ENT.
02-06-2010, 11:02 PM
Finally got a chance to play around with the MIG for a minute. I told ZT I'd post a pic of my MIG welds when I got back home this weekend. Have to go back to Jersey Sunday so I ran a couple of quick beads while shuffling some things around in the shop. Not much to look at but here they are. First pic is my normal procedure for running solid MIG wire. The second pic is me trying to emulate the "MIG like TIG" look. I never try to run my torch in that manner so I don't think it turned out too horrible since it was my first stab at running that way. The base metal is an old scrap piece of CS 3/16" plate with weld going around a 3" diameter 1/8" flat washer. These were ran with my Lincoln Powermig 140 and .025" ER70S-6 wire, 75/25 gas mix, Voltage about 3/4 the way up and WS on #6. Could've made 'em look a little better if I'd have slowed down the wire speed a little and done a little extra pre-cleaning on the scrap but had a lot of things to do and got in a hurry. :drinkup:

ccm399
02-07-2010, 10:57 PM
Nope. I use either my Lincoln SP135PLUS 110v MIG or my Lincoln PowerMIG 200....both in short circuit transfer mode. The SP135 is outfitted with .023" 70S-6 and the 200 has .030" 70S-6 and both run C25 shielding gas.


Hey Paul,

Quick question for ya.

When you say Short circuit transfer mode does that mean "short arc" like your transfer modes sticky thread talks about? I am guessing yes but at that point my question is how do you deal with spatter (or lack thereof in your welds)? Maybe you are doing a low voltage version of spray arc? Compared to the video which mode does your setup/process sound like?

I have a Miller 175 and had some time to practice your method today and I am getting there but I need more time to iron out the setup and motion . I believe the steel I had laying around is HRS so maybe that has something to do with the spatter? I can get it to run clean but it goes into more of a spary arc type of transfer mode. I am running .030 70S-6 wire and 80/20 ultra mix @ 15cfh

I found that I needed to make an "oval" shaped "e" pattern. Kinda hard to explain but the vertical part of the "e" was fairly tight but the horizontal portions were "flatter" and longer. So basically I would move horizontally about 2x as far as I needed to then back track as I went up and over the top of the "e". I think this will produce the correct results as I get more practice.

Sorry for the long post and thanks for your time!

Chris

Reebs
02-08-2010, 06:13 PM
Medina Ohio, I grew up there. I made the long migration to Wadsworth.

ccm399
02-08-2010, 08:04 PM
Pace yourself there Dave! LOL

I work over on Weber drive and Seville Rd....well that's where home base is anyway.

Chris

jdh239
02-09-2010, 04:45 PM
Found this video... example of this stuff:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4RrDeUKcH4

oxy moron
02-09-2010, 05:12 PM
Hey Paul,

I found that I needed to make an "oval" shaped "e" pattern. Kinda hard to explain but the vertical part of the "e" was fairly tight but the horizontal portions were "flatter" and longer. So basically I would move horizontally about 2x as far as I needed to then back track as I went up and over the top of the "e". I think this will produce the correct results as I get more practice.


Chris

that's what i discover while experimenting as well.

Welder94r
02-09-2010, 09:33 PM
Hey everybody just thought i would show you a MIG weld i made a couple months ago on a steel table i was making for my teacher. Yea im still in school i am a sophmore in highschool. Anyways back to the weld i was running the wire speed at about 250 at 17.5 volts. I took the pic with my phone thats why the quality sucks.

mooseye
02-11-2010, 04:29 PM
How bout a little stainless MIG?
This was blow pipe so didn't really take any pains with it.
http://webpages.charter.net/rtillx5/Stuff/Photo620.jpg

hddm3
02-11-2010, 10:34 PM
Man i wish i could roll dimes like you guys! Just beautiful.

ZTFab
02-12-2010, 07:21 PM
Finally got a chance to play around with the MIG for a minute. I told ZT I'd post a pic of my MIG welds when I got back home this weekend. Have to go back to Jersey Sunday so I ran a couple of quick beads while shuffling some things around in the shop. Not much to look at but here they are. First pic is my normal procedure for running solid MIG wire. The second pic is me trying to emulate the "MIG like TIG" look. I never try to run my torch in that manner so I don't think it turned out too horrible since it was my first stab at running that way. The base metal is an old scrap piece of CS 3/16" plate with weld going around a 3" diameter 1/8" flat washer. These were ran with my Lincoln Powermig 140 and .025" ER70S-6 wire, 75/25 gas mix, Voltage about 3/4 the way up and WS on #6. Could've made 'em look a little better if I'd have slowed down the wire speed a little and done a little extra pre-cleaning on the scrap but had a lot of things to do and got in a hurry. :drinkup:


Nice work Jeremy!



Hey Paul,

Quick question for ya.

When you say Short circuit transfer mode does that mean "short arc" like your transfer modes sticky thread talks about? I am guessing yes but at that point my question is how do you deal with spatter (or lack thereof in your welds)? Maybe you are doing a low voltage version of spray arc? Compared to the video which mode does your setup/process sound like?

I have a Miller 175 and had some time to practice your method today and I am getting there but I need more time to iron out the setup and motion . I believe the steel I had laying around is HRS so maybe that has something to do with the spatter? I can get it to run clean but it goes into more of a spary arc type of transfer mode. I am running .030 70S-6 wire and 80/20 ultra mix @ 15cfh

I found that I needed to make an "oval" shaped "e" pattern. Kinda hard to explain but the vertical part of the "e" was fairly tight but the horizontal portions were "flatter" and longer. So basically I would move horizontally about 2x as far as I needed to then back track as I went up and over the top of the "e". I think this will produce the correct results as I get more practice.

Sorry for the long post and thanks for your time!

Chris


Hey Chris....yes, I am running short circuit(arc) transfer mode as explained in the the sticky thread.

With the voltages, wire size, speed, and gas that I run there is no way I am getting into spray transfer....maybe nearing globular in some cases.

When I weld GMAW it sounds like bacon frying. You are probably getting into globular transfer as I don't think your 175 has enough voltage to run spray transfer. Hot rolled steel welds like poop compared to CRS. At the least, grind the mill scale off the HRS and it will help tremendously. Also, what are your voltage and WFS settings? It sounds like you may have your WFS too low. Excessive voltage will cause excessive splatter and too low of WFS will cause the welder to make a "hissing" sound rather than "frying bacon".

Yes, more of an oval "e" shape can help...it depends on joint type, voltage and wire speed as to how quickly and far you need to take each "swoop".

Hope that helps.

ZTFab
02-12-2010, 07:26 PM
Here is a couple pieces from today.

These are plates for the A-arm mounts on a Kawasaki Teryx.

I made them from 11ga CRS...the same thickness as the factory mounts.

Welded with my Lincoln PowerMIG 200, .030 70S-6, C25 @ 15-20cfh, Voltage Tap "B", WFS @ 150.

The last pic is of the mounts welded to the new 1.5"x2.5"x.120" frame rails. I bumped the welder up to Tap "C" and WFS @ 250.

http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m231/zerotolerancefab/Mike%20Lashers%20Teryx/IMG_2820.jpg

http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m231/zerotolerancefab/Mike%20Lashers%20Teryx/IMG_2818.jpg

http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m231/zerotolerancefab/Mike%20Lashers%20Teryx/IMG_2821.jpg

http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m231/zerotolerancefab/Mike%20Lashers%20Teryx/IMG_2822.jpg

http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m231/zerotolerancefab/Mike%20Lashers%20Teryx/IMG_2824.jpg

http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m231/zerotolerancefab/Mike%20Lashers%20Teryx/IMG_2825.jpg

JLE-ENT.
02-12-2010, 07:39 PM
Another masterpiece Paul!:D

ZTFab
02-13-2010, 09:55 AM
Another masterpiece Paul!:D

Thanks again Jeremy.

It looks like you've got a pretty good handle on the technique...you just need to weld on cleaner material! :p

ccm399
02-13-2010, 10:42 AM
Hey Chris....yes, I am running short circuit(arc) transfer mode as explained in the the sticky thread.

With the voltages, wire size, speed, and gas that I run there is no way I am getting into spray transfer....maybe nearing globular in some cases.

When I weld GMAW it sounds like bacon frying. You are probably getting into globular transfer as I don't think your 175 has enough voltage to run spray transfer. Hot rolled steel welds like poop compared to CRS. At the least, grind the mill scale off the HRS and it will help tremendously. Also, what are your voltage and WFS settings? It sounds like you may have your WFS too low. Excessive voltage will cause excessive splatter and too low of WFS will cause the welder to make a "hissing" sound rather than "frying bacon".

Yes, more of an oval "e" shape can help...it depends on joint type, voltage and wire speed as to how quickly and far you need to take each "swoop".

Hope that helps.

Thanks for taking the time to post this info for me. You are right I can get to globular but not true spray transfer.

As far as the steel prep I cleaned it up with 40 grind on my angle grinder but it seemed to have a LOT more spatter than the DOM I am used to welding. I've been out of fabrication for about 5-6 years so I do not have much scrape lying around to practice on. I will get back to you about the wire speed and voltage. I tried quite a few but the last settings I was using were, 50 on the wire speed dial and 3 on the voltage dial. I was using 1/8 material, again most likely HRS.

I'm going to try to round up some decent material to work with this week, I'll post some pics if I do.

Thanks again,

Chris

ZTFab
02-13-2010, 03:57 PM
Thanks for taking the time to post this info for me. You are right I can get to globular but not true spray transfer.

As far as the steel prep I cleaned it up with 40 grind on my angle grinder but it seemed to have a LOT more spatter than the DOM I am used to welding. I've been out of fabrication for about 5-6 years so I do not have much scrape lying around to practice on. I will get back to you about the wire speed and voltage. I tried quite a few but the last settings I was using were, 50 on the wire speed dial and 3 on the voltage dial. I was using 1/8 material, again most likely HRS.

I'm going to try to round up some decent material to work with this week, I'll post some pics if I do.

Thanks again,

Chris

No problem. Glad I could help.

lucky1968
02-13-2010, 04:43 PM
Here is a couple pieces from today.

These are plates for the A-arm mounts on a Kawasaki Teryx.

I made them from 11ga CRS...the same thickness as the factory mounts.

Welded with my Lincoln PowerMIG 200, .030 70S-6, C25 @ 15-20cfh, Voltage Tap "B", WFS @ 150.

The last pic is of the mounts welded to the new 1.5"x2.5"x.120" frame rails. I bumped the welder up to Tap "C" and WFS @ 250.

http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m231/zerotolerancefab/Mike%20Lashers%20Teryx/IMG_2820.jpg

http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m231/zerotolerancefab/Mike%20Lashers%20Teryx/IMG_2818.jpg

http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m231/zerotolerancefab/Mike%20Lashers%20Teryx/IMG_2821.jpg

http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m231/zerotolerancefab/Mike%20Lashers%20Teryx/IMG_2822.jpg

http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m231/zerotolerancefab/Mike%20Lashers%20Teryx/IMG_2824.jpg

http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m231/zerotolerancefab/Mike%20Lashers%20Teryx/IMG_2825.jpg



Man those are some sweet welds. How do you get such sweet welds.

ZTFab
02-13-2010, 05:32 PM
Man those are some sweet welds. How do you get such sweet welds.

Thanks.

A fock load of practice. :D

Reebs
02-13-2010, 06:02 PM
Thanks ZTFab for posting what "short circuit (arc) transfer mode" is. I looked at a few links and web pages and thought it might be a setting or something on Lincoln welders.
I have done the stacked dimes look but with no consistency.

ZTFab
02-13-2010, 07:59 PM
Thanks ZTFab for posting what "short circuit (arc) transfer mode" is. I looked at a few links and web pages and thought it might be a setting or something on Lincoln welders.
I have done the stacked dimes look but with no consistency.

No problem. For a long time I never knew the difference in the transfer modes. I thought that it might be a setting on the machine or an entirely different machine all together for each type of transfer mode.

Certain machines will be better suited for certain types of transfer....110v MIGs will be great for short circuit and some globular but won't be capable of spray transfer. The bigger machines will be better suited for globular and spray but may not have fine enough adjustment for low voltage short circuit for thin metals like sheet metal.

Reebs
02-13-2010, 08:53 PM
OK who is the guy in your avatar?