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roper56
04-17-2016, 08:18 PM
I was just hired to teach welding at a high school. The shop is an old metal shop with a 12 ft ceiling and 2 8 ft roll up doors. The only welding equipment is 4 Lincoln AC/DV-/DC+ stick welders. There is no fume extraction system. I have about $55,000 budget to get shop ready to teach welding next fall.

I am thinking I need a couple MIG machines, a plasma cutter, 3 or 4 good welding tables, fume extraction system, probably portable because the only walls that could be used to mount system to are mostly large windows.

I also hope to squeeze a $14,000 4X4 plasma CNC into that budget.

The air compressor is shot, will have to get a compressor in that budget also.

I will try to add TIG maybe next budget.

What would you suggest for portable fume extraction , need at least 4. And MIG machines , at least 2 , for beginning welding classes at high school level?

How would you spend 55K to get set up?

thanks you

DanD78
04-17-2016, 08:34 PM
You might contact Lincoln or Miller. Some how our community college gets equipment from them.

Dan D.

soutthpaw
04-17-2016, 08:37 PM
I think Hypertherm hands down for plasma, contact Jim Colt here and maybe he can set something up with your local HT rep. You want a working relationship with your local reps. Even have them come in and do a presentation to each class on their product, correct use, and preferably the science behind the process.
As a former shop teacher, I'm envious of you budget. I would also reach out to your local metal suppliers and metal recyclers. I was a able to go to the local metal recycler and load up a trailer of whatever I needed. Just sent them a donation letter. Then took the left over welded scrap back to them to recycle... (they obviously didn't pay us for the scrap to avoid conflicts of interest etc). Remnants are often gladly donated by metal suppliers.
I would love to see a pallet of AHP TIG and MIG machines in a classroom setting. If you are interested, I will get you a great price on them. I can truck ship you however many you need.

First I would suggest contacting ESAB, Miller Lincoln directly and see what they can do. ESAB is currently making a big push into the consumer market, they may set you up with an excellent package.

Sedanman
04-17-2016, 08:44 PM
Powermig 210, will get you up and running with 3 processes. Contact your lws and the manufactures directly, they may subsidize educational purchases. Dont forget oxy acetalene.

123weld
04-17-2016, 09:02 PM
i would have a different approach. i'd say " look here kiddies, this is texas, and ya'll gonna be stick welders". first thing project is to modify the metal shop siding into hinged/door/windows, (thats your ventilation system) just like the good ole days. then, i'd have one mig welder, and once some master stick, they can fight over who gets to use the mig. tig - a few used torches they could hook to the stick machines. a lil chicken 800 dollar plasma is all they need to learn the concept. compressor - a lil baby compressor hooked to a big tank. no need in spoiling these kids. that way, i'd still have 50g leftover for myself

lotechman
04-17-2016, 09:52 PM
If your course runs longer than 500 hours then you might consider fancy stuff but I would set up more stick welders. Four stations means you could only have 8 students so you need more machines. Yes it is nice to have many GMAW and GTAW setups but the gas costs will eat you alive. Concentrate on basic torch welding and brazing and more on cutting with a torch. Stick welding is where one starts to learn how to read the arc and see the puddle. Just to be able to weld all position with plate is going to take 300 hours of instruction/practice.
Teaching CNC sounds high tech but people who try to program a machine without understanding variables like height, speed angle of gun etc. have a tough time. Someone who has done the manual process is miles ahead when learning CNC.
Also plasma produces a LOT of metal fume and you really need high end ventilation which is high end dollars.
You are going to need equipment to cut plate and bend weld coupons.

aevald
04-17-2016, 10:44 PM
Hello roper56, I believe that one of the other responders suggested contacting Jim Colt on here who is with Hypertherm concerning plasma equipment. Beyond that suggestion I would say that you need to have a heart to heart with any of your local welding suppliers. Miller, Lincoln, Esab, Thermal Arc, Hypertherm equipment will serve all of your instructional needs. Be sure to push the "educational" button with all of them. Also push the need for any freebies or reduced purchase pricing explaining that "whatever folks learn on they tend to gravitate towards purchasing when it becomes their decision". Work any and all angles to maximize your cash, especially when you are in the set-up phase as you have indicated. If there is a Redi-Arc facility in your area take a trip over there and browse their inventory. They will often turn-over their rental fleet and there is a lot of life left in much of that equipment. As much as you may wish to have a CNC plasma table, you may give up a lot of more relevant equipment in doing so. If you prove yourself with your start-up implementation you may find that more money will come your way in short order. Good luck and best regards, Allan

DSW
04-17-2016, 11:12 PM
As mentioned talk to the local Miller / Lincoln reps about what sort of deal they can cut the school. I know the one tech school near me got set up with all new Millers at a good discount. Also look into what grants and all are available. I know the old day school instructor where I help teach at night managed to get at least one new XMT 304 or Syncrowave 250 thru grants, as well as a new Hyperthem 85 last year. The school also gets donations from a variety of businesses. Some times it's rod or wire, other times it's material the students can work with.

I'm partial to the Miller XMT304's the school has. Not cheap, but they will let you do mig , DC tig and stick all with the same power source. It's pretty much the industry standard in multi purpose machines in industry. The Syncrowave 250's the school has rounds out the selection allowing us to teach stick and AC or DC tig with those machines.

Cutting, you probably want to look into some sort of horizontal bandsaw. I'd get one with a throat large enough to cut at least 8" pipe, 12" would be better. Our shop also has an iron worker that we use to shear coupons with. I think it's an old Scotchman but I can't remember. I made up a 6" stop for the shear so the kids would always cut coupons the same size.

As far as bending, I'd either get one of the compact benders to bend coupons ( one of the HF ones would work fine) or build a simple hydraulic jack one. It doesn't need to be fancy to give basic feed back on welds. CEP here has done several posts on bending welds.


I'm not sure what your school districts rules are about used gear. I know Aevald here has commented that he often browses CL looking for tools for his program. Used is a good way to stretch your dollars. Used basic AC and AC/Dc stick machines can often be picked up dirt cheap. They really aren't the greatest for a school, but they'd put more machines on the floor cheap if need be. I've also seen plenty of Idealarcs and Dialarcs go for some really good prices used. They'd be wonderful learning machines. They are built like tanks and kids will have to get really creative to kill them.

Don't forget the plethora of "other" tools you'll need. A couple of 4 1/2" grinders, at least 1 7" grinder, especially if you prep bevels on pipe or coupons, OA gear, basic wrenches to change hoses and regs on cylinders, a few tongs for moving hot metal, wire brushes, chipping hammers, clamps ( can never have too many clamps) and a couple of medium sized or larger vises. I have a couple of plates tacked to a steel table with a C clamp as the "vise" we use to grind bevel plates. the kids were destroying the regular vises doing that before hand. Also figure on stocking a good selection of consumables for your torches/guns etc. I probably have to replace at least one mig tip a night in the beginning of the semester and the students break tig cups semi regularly when they drop them.

mla2ofus
04-17-2016, 11:15 PM
I agree w/ lotechman on the O/A torch, not oxy/propane. they need to learn best and safest way to use it. By learning how to torch weld first it will give them a little head start on tig welding. Learning O/A torch will require more one on one from you so they learn all the safety aspects of it. They'll appreciate it later when they enter "the real world".
Mike

forhire
04-18-2016, 01:52 AM
The best skill I learned at school was to use OA. I learned to bend, weld, braze, and solder. Skills I use daily. Puddle control learned with OA will transfer well to tig.

A couple years ago we ran a welding clinic for some scouts. The group was split into two groups. One started with stick and the other with mig. Interestingly, the group that started with stick learned better puddle control and picked up mig faster when we switched groups. Counter intuitive. This was running 7018... using an easy start rod like 6013 would have made it even easier. The next clinic we do we'll start everyone on stick and then introduce mig once they can read the puddle. ;)

A couple weeks ago I was at the Auburn high school shop and snapped some photos. They have a great shop. Sorry about the blurry photos. I didn't think to snap a photo of the fume extraction system. Each booth had some. Each AO booth has a pickup also. There is a large hood over the forge and acorn table.

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TommyL
04-18-2016, 05:37 AM
If you can get by with opening windows and using a big fan I would do that. Also I would buy just 1 decent welding table and make building others part of the curriculum. I say this because in machine shop class we spent our time making our own tools, including toolposts for lathes. We had such a small budget we had to do that.

bead-boy
04-18-2016, 05:44 AM
Have you talked to the local inspectors to make sure it will be properly set up for electrical, ventilation, and fire suppression so that it will pass inspection? I have no idea how particular they are for a school, but I would think more than your average shop. If they can smell the fumes in other parts of the school, or if you set off any alarms, it may not go well for you.

psacustomcreations
04-18-2016, 06:15 AM
As DSW and other have said, don't forget all the small stuff, it will add up quickly. Plus the small stuff may disappear into their pockets so have plenty of replacement items.

This is your chance to emphasize safety so have plenty of eye and ear protection. In addition to the semi- disposable glasses, face shields for grinding are a must have. Even though you have fume extraction, I would look into the 3M face masks of some kind if they are using stick.

Tool and parts storage lockers can eat up some floor space. Are the students required to provide their own helmets and gloves? How many and what kind of loaners will you have? Do they have lockers?

You don't mention where you are located, but are there any large, heavy manufacturing facilities nearby? Maybe talk to them for donations as well. Don't overlook non-welding locations and companies for donations.

Sedanman
04-18-2016, 08:05 AM
If you start with o/a or mig, you could have each student make a chipping hammer. Then they all have one when it's time to stick weld.

farmshop
04-18-2016, 10:07 AM
I would scratch the plasma table but by a compatible plasma. Band saw is a must along with grinders. Building tables is a good project. What kind of class size . Walk before running. Maybe a portable deeded to run of the stick machine

bent
04-18-2016, 10:40 AM
First thing is I would find out what local manufacturers hire welders and go talk to those firms. Find out what they do, how they do it, and what they need their new hires to know. If they like you or believe in your mission they might find some old machines they would donate or scrap materials that would make good coupons.

I agree with the guys that say start with stick or start with OxyAcetylene. Running a MIG is usually taught like running a caulking gun and it makes learning critical skills more difficult.

My high school never had any type of fume extraction or welding booths, just some tables. It got plenty smoky as a lot of the projects were made of old oil field pipe with tar inside. Open doors were our best friend. Probably not an acceptable solution today.

At its most basic, I would want a stick welder for every pair of students if not every student. A couple of torch set-ups so a couple could do OA welding and cutting. Then its lots of material for coupons and lots of filler. You will need a band saw to cut the material for stick coupons. You need some vises and grinders so they can grind the mill scale off their coupons. OA coupons are thinner and usually sheared. You would be better served to farm this out.

You must be firm and relentless on safety issues. The first week will set the tone for your entire career at the school. And remember, kids can spot a hypocrite from a mile away. The kids will emulate your safety procedures, even when you think no one is watching. So never even think of entering the shop without safety glasses, picking up a grinder without a face shield, or striking an arc without gloves.

ironmangq
04-18-2016, 10:53 AM
Start by figuring out the infrastructure requirments of what you want to do and see if the local building authority is going to take issue with any of it or require fume extraction, fire protection and what not. Then get in touch with any of the big welding equipment companies and see if they will work with you. They may be willing to extend an educational discount on their equipment, it's often significant.

SHW&F
04-18-2016, 12:03 PM
I am helping my high school set up a welding program. I am self taught on a arch welding, I feel it's a good starting process because if you get it you can learn any other skill better. I'd recommend the Hobart Handlers or the Miller Matics. I hope it all works out there!

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soutthpaw
04-18-2016, 12:10 PM
I am helping my high school set up a welding program. I am self taught on a arch welding, I feel it's a good starting process because if you get it you can learn any other skill better. I'd recommend the Hobart Handlers or the Miller Matics. I hope it all works out there!

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If you are going to be teaching, The correct terminology is Arc not Arch. You could build the latter with the former though....

Bistineau
04-18-2016, 12:15 PM
If you are going to be teaching, The correct terminology is Arc not Arch. You could build the latter with the former though....


Also, arc welding can refer to TIG, MIG or stick welding, since each one of those processes use an arc to produce the welds. So what type of arc welding did you teach yourself?

Wakamba
04-18-2016, 05:49 PM
If you've got 3 phase I'd just buy several Lincoln FlexTec 350s and LN25s, a few Journeyman torch setups and whatever TIG welder you can get a good deal on. Lincoln and Miller both have education discounts, so get whatever power source is a better deal, but IIRC you can get a flextec for about 3 grand, and it'll do anything but aluminum TIG which isn't what most welders get into.

SlickmisterN
04-18-2016, 06:08 PM
First off, congrats on the new gig!

Second, you don't need a cnc plasma table at all. Period, end of story. Are you crazy? Do you even have a decent exhaust sytem in that shop? You want the students welding, not standing around waiting for machines to open up.

Id say get as many multiprocess Miller machines as you can afford to fit in the booths. The XMT and Pipeworx lineup are what you'd be interested in with dual wire feeders on top. One for solid, one for dual shield/fcaw. We are extremely spoiled by the college shop here, but pump out the best, most skilled, and versatile welders in the area. Good luck!

roper56
04-18-2016, 06:37 PM
If you are going to be teaching, The correct terminology is Arc not Arch. You could build the latter with the former though....

OK, thanks for the tip, maybe it was a TYPO or the school hired someone to taech waldin thet did nut now whet Shielded Metal Arc Welding was. Proper terminology not withstanding.


What is a latter and how do you build one with a former?

roper56
04-18-2016, 06:47 PM
Don't forget the plethora of "other" tools you'll need. A couple of 4 1/2" grinders, at least 1 7" grinder, especially if you prep bevels on pipe or coupons, OA gear, basic wrenches to change hoses and regs on cylinders, a few tongs for moving hot metal, wire brushes, chipping hammers, clamps ( can never have too many clamps) and a couple of medium sized or larger vises. I have a couple of plates tacked to a steel table with a C clamp as the "vise" we use to grind bevel plates. the kids were destroying the regular vises doing that before hand. Also figure on stocking a good selection of consumables for your torches/guns etc. I probably have to replace at least one mig tip a night in the beginning of the semester and the students break tig cups semi regularly when they drop them.

My budget is for capital equipment. The consumables, hand tools, safety equipment etc come out of another budget. I got it covered because this school metal shop has been around a long time. I've got lathes, milling machines, power hack saw, band saws, drill presses, sheet metal equipment, tons of hand power tools, etc etc etc.

The teacher there for last 30 years only taught basic SMAW and very little of that so welding was afterthought. It was centered around machining. Now the district has changed gears and wants to concentrate the program on welding. Thus, here I am.

roper56
04-18-2016, 06:52 PM
First off, congrats on the new gig!

Second, you don't need a cnc plasma table at all. Period, end of story. Are you crazy? Do you even have a decent exhaust sytem in that shop? Good luck!

I am crazy thank you very much. I will have a very good fume extraction system. Plasma with water table don't produce much fume anyway.

roper56
04-18-2016, 06:59 PM
Also, arc welding can refer to TIG, MIG or stick welding, since each one of those processes use an arc to produce the welds. So what type of arc welding did you teach yourself?

Seems like I remember something about the arc thing. OK, sorry I confused you. In my neck of the woods, I have never known anyone to not understand that if one said "arc" that they might not know what it referred to. Funny how local terminology does not translate well .

I did not teach myself to do any welding. My HS shop teacher taught me how to SMAW, MIG, and O/A. My college professors helped me refine my skills and knowledge and taught me TIG. Several of the really skilled welders that worked for me over the years also taught me some things. cheers

DSW
04-18-2016, 07:04 PM
That's great. A lathe will make beveling pipe a breeze, and a mill would let you prep coupons if need be.

One other thing you might want to look into is what sort of policy the district has on sale of items. Our area the programs can't sell anything any longer. The auto shops used to buy used cars and use them to teach body work and engine repair, then sell them at the end of the semester. Same went with the carpentry/plumbing/electric classes where they'd build a house in the back lot of the building, then sell it to someone who would then truck it off in sections to be reassembled on their lot. Now sadly for liability reasons the district here won't let them do any of that any longer. The cars either have to be stripped and reused in the program, or taken and directly crushed. Carpentry, plumbing and electrical classes now just do small sections, tear them down and trash them when done.

I know a few instructors here have posted up smokers, trailers and other things that their district will allow them to sell or auction off after the semester to generate income for the program. The kids learn not only to weld, but cut and fabricate to plans as well. I think that's a lot more useful than simply learning to run beads.

Our district does have a program where seniors who have met all the program requirements can get jobs with local businesses PT during the week. They'll do class say Mon, Wed, Fri, and work the 1/2 day Tues/Thurs in someone shop to gain practical experience. Students are limited in what they can do at these jobs, but it gives them good exposure to the real world. Also the program has worked out deals with various businesses to hire students after they graduate. Much of the program is geared towards making sure the students come out with the skills they need to get those jobs. Down side is many of those jobs are low wage repetitive jobs, like welding up new dumpsters or welding mufflers together. The companies know they'll have an almost endless supply of kids coming out looking for work, so they know they don't have to pay well or have great working conditions. A few companies do offer some pretty good starting jobs for the better students in say tig. However these jobs are limited, and if someone filled that job last semester, chances are it's not going to be open for a while until the guy moves on or moves up the ladder.

Pete.S.
04-18-2016, 08:14 PM
First thing I think is to check regulations. The shop needs to fulfill all requirements, for you as an employee and for the students.
For instance https://www.osha.gov/SLTC/weldingcuttingbrazing/

Portable fume extraction takes up a lot of room and is expensive. The unit I have is around 4K new. I suggest looking at central systems that is run in the ceiling. You probably need filtering before you let fumes go outside, you have to check. 12 ft is not high so you'll fill it up very quickly with fumes if you have a couple of people doing stick welding there.

Also check the electricity. Do you have enough power coming into the building?

And you need booths so people can weld and grind without hurting anyone else. Stuff like welding curtains add up quickly.

I think getting the shop ready for welding, the way it is suppose to be done, is going to eat up a lot of your budget.

I think you need to start there and get quotes for that kind of stuff before you know how much you have left to buy gear for. And you need to decide how many students are going to weld at the same time.

Also keep in mind that Lincoln do free welding classes for welding teachers. I think one class a year or something like that.

.

roper56
04-18-2016, 10:20 PM
The shop is plenty large enough for the portable extractors and I want to be able to move them around for various projects that don't fit inside a welding booth. The facility is best suited for portable units , trust me on that. I have had a Lincoln rep come see and agrees 100%. The shop was once a metal shop and a wood shop, then went to just metal. The district will allow me to sell products, thus one reason for the plasma table. Plus the Super wants the students to learn CNC. I will purchase 2 large floor fans to use in the overhead doors as needed to draw fumes out.

mr.garrett2
04-18-2016, 10:59 PM
Honestly, it sounds like you know what you want, and are fishing for atta boys. I will tell you that the money doesn't go as far as many want it to. With that said, get the specs on the equipment you want, and requisition the dist. Electrician for a site eval. You have experienced people offering info, you should take advice. Also your rep will tell you what you want to hear, give you a reach around with one hand, and swipe you card with the other.

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tinker001
04-18-2016, 11:36 PM
I have a dumb question what part of the country are you in? This could give someone a better idea how to direct you. Say if in the north then you would need more ventilation then in the south due to weather. What is in the shop now? Saying it was a metal shop you could have tables that could be used with modification. How much of the metal shop is left(tool wise). Then again you could get ventilation fans placed in a couple windows with louvers if they are up high. If you look hard you could find a cnc plasma table(4x4) for about in the $4000-5000 range that will do just fine for teaching on. I'm sure that you could find and old deck top computer in the school system that you could use to run the cnc with. Then get a good plasma cutter with a machine torch and handheld to use. So I just went through and save $5000 out of your budget. Just for the cnc alone. Which could get most of your welding screens. Now to some of the cad cam people out there do have educational software at a big discount for schools. Or here is a better one build a cnc plasma table has a project classes. This would be a teaching lesson plus skills too. For all that I put in here try to be creative with your class. Don't just hand them everything. This will get them interested in all of what is involved with welding too.

DSW
04-19-2016, 12:09 AM
I have a dumb question what part of the country are you in? .

In his intro he says he's in Texas.

tinker001
04-19-2016, 08:02 AM
In his intro he says he's in Texas.
Texas is a big state and a lot of different weather across the state. I was looking for maybe what type weather that would effect his plans too.

No where in this post states he is in Texas.

SHW&F
04-19-2016, 08:15 AM
[QUOTE=mr.garrett2;7141881]Honestly, it sounds like you know what you want, and are fishing for atta boys. I will tell you that the money doesn't go as far as many want it to. With that said, get the specs on the equipment you want, and requisition the dist. Electrician for a site eval. You have experienced people offering info, you should take advice. Also your rep will tell you what you want to hear, give you a reach around with one hand, and swipe you card with the other.


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DSW
04-19-2016, 09:04 AM
Texas is a big state and a lot of different weather across the state. I was looking for maybe what type weather that would effect his plans too.

No where in this post states he is in Texas.


In his Intro.
http://weldingweb.com/showthread.php?602991-Hi-From-Texas-CTE-H-S-Teacher

thegary
04-19-2016, 10:35 AM
55K is a lot of money to set up a shop for one or two men. It is not much to set up a shop for a whole class of kids. When I was in high school I had 2 years of vocational welding. We probably had 20 welding booths. 4 tig booths, 20 gas welding stations. 3-4 gas cutting stations and 2 tracers ( 70's high tech ) . They had 2 two hr classes a day. I bet even back then in the 70's that shop probably cost $150-$200k to set up.
I have a roll around fume extractor and I have used central fume extractor system. There is no comparison. The central system is hands down much better. Either system does not replace a good exhaust fan . My portable is a large one and for it to work well I have to have the snorkel so close to my welding that it gets in my way. I do not care what any weld rep says. He has a conflict of interest at best and a commision at worst. If you are getting a lathe for beveling that is an expensive beveler. If you are getting a lathe because you are setting up a machine shop too. Then you better go find a lot more money.
Just for a comparison My high school graduating class had 950 kids in it so you are looking a a 4 year school of about 4000 kids for the facility I described. They had to limit enrollment by first come first serve. But there were not many that had to be turned away. only juniors and seniors could be in the vocational program but they did have general welding class for fresh sof kids.

roper56
04-19-2016, 08:46 PM
55K is a lot of money to set up a shop for one or two men. It is not much to set up a shop for a whole class of kids. When I was in high school I had 2 years of vocational welding. We probably had 20 welding booths. 4 tig booths, 20 gas welding stations. 3-4 gas cutting stations and 2 tracers ( 70's high tech ) . They had 2 two hr classes a day. I bet even back then in the 70's that shop probably cost $150-$200k to set up.
I have a roll around fume extractor and I have used central fume extractor system. There is no comparison. The central system is hands down much better. Either system does not replace a good exhaust fan . My portable is a large one and for it to work well I have to have the snorkel so close to my welding that it gets in my way. I do not care what any weld rep says. He has a conflict of interest at best and a commision at worst. If you are getting a lathe for beveling that is an expensive beveler. If you are getting a lathe because you are setting up a machine shop too. Then you better go find a lot more money.
Just for a comparison My high school graduating class had 950 kids in it so you are looking a a 4 year school of about 4000 kids for the facility I described. They had to limit enrollment by first come first serve. But there were not many that had to be turned away. only juniors and seniors could be in the vocational program but they did have general welding class for fresh sof kids.

I'm not getting a lathe, I have a lathe. The budget is what it is for this year. I need portable fume extractors. No way around it.


I have a dumb question what part of the country are you in? This could give someone a better idea how to direct you. Say if in the north then you would need more ventilation then in the south due to weather. What is in the shop now? Saying it was a metal shop you could have tables that could be used with modification. How much of the metal shop is left(tool wise). Then again you could get ventilation fans placed in a couple windows with louvers if they are up high. If you look hard you could find a cnc plasma table(4x4) for about in the $4000-5000 range that will do just fine for teaching on. I'm sure that you could find and old deck top computer in the school system that you could use to run the cnc with. Then get a good plasma cutter with a machine torch and handheld to use. So I just went through and save $5000 out of your budget. Just for the cnc alone. Which could get most of your welding screens. Now to some of the cad cam people out there do have educational software at a big discount for schools. Or here is a better one build a cnc plasma table has a project classes. This would be a teaching lesson plus skills too. For all that I put in here try to be creative with your class. Don't just hand them everything. This will get them interested in all of what is involved with welding too.

I am in central Texas. Yes there are tables that can be used and I plan on it. I don't plan on just handing them everything.


Honestly, it sounds like you know what you want, and are fishing for atta boys. I will tell you that the money doesn't go as far as many want it to. With that said, get the specs on the equipment you want, and requisition the dist. Electrician for a site eval. You have experienced people offering info, you should take advice. Also your rep will tell you what you want to hear, give you a reach around with one hand, and swipe you card with the other.

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If you read my OP I asked some pretty specific questions. Don't really care that you think I'm just looking for attaboys, from who? strangers on the internet? I'm not 12 years old. I absolutely will spec the equipment and requisition the district. Not sure how else I could do it. And you are correct, my budget will not go as far as I would like. Pretty much the way life is in general.

I have a limited budget for setting up what I can for next fall. Yes, I understand it is not enough money, a central exhaust would be better, but can't use that out in the open shop floor building a trailer. I need to teach as many processes as possible. I have absolutely gotten some good information from you guys. Thank you. I have a large fab shop donating scrap steel. I have to complete a 3 year plan soon. The Perkins Act will get me 60K a year to build on the program. I think the CNC Plasma should wait as most have said. Used equipment is great, however I am teaching all day, and taking care of 110 head of cattle, 10 horses, and a wife that likes attention as well, so I really don't have time or energy to go trying to hustle up used equipment. Call me lazy but I will take the easy way out this year and write orders. I have a huge stock of bar stock that I will try to trade for sheet and structural steel. Lincoln has a great education program, I think electrodes are $1 a LB.

Several have suggested various welding equipment that I don't have experience with, thank you I will look at those and compare price specs availability support.

The windows are fixed, I do have two large fans that will be good for using with roll up doors. My Boss is insisting on fume extraction equipment. Politics, CYA

thegary
04-19-2016, 10:56 PM
I would defenatly buy all new . The used rout takes a lot of time for sure. You are going to make mistakes on some equipment you buy. No one is perfect. Some stuff you buy you will find you hardly use. I would contact some welder manufacturers including some of the newer ones like HTP,Everlast, APT and see if you can swing a deal or get some donations in exchange for product exposure or even advertising like banners in the shop . That is why Lincoln will sell you rods for $1 a pound.
Dividers between weld stations is going to be very important and I think some of your 1st year class projects should be geared to shop setup and layout. They can build all types of stuff for the shop. I would start making sketches and plans with priorities. You should also talk to some local large employers of welders in the area and see what they have a shortage of in their weldor labor pool. Also hit them up for donations of equipment or material. Most have a lot of older equipment they are not going to use.

123weld
04-20-2016, 04:16 AM
Honestly, it sounds like you know what you want, and are fishing for atta boys. , give you a reach around with one hand, and swipe you card with the other.

Sent from my Z830 using Tapatalk

lol, lol. (sounds like garret sees it), don't let mr. roper , rope you guys in

roper56
04-20-2016, 06:47 PM
lol, lol. (sounds like garret sees it), don't let mr. roper , rope you guys in

Pasa sus días siendo idiota ?

123weld
04-21-2016, 02:07 AM
many teachers aren't capable of handling money. they work for a wage, never ran a business, and make poor decisions w/ it. it's given to them, they spend it like idiots, and buy salesmans b s. its not science to move air. i could walk in there, have some hvac guy run sheet metal pipe ducting routed overhead w/ down spouts for that yellow manhole flex ducting, and pipe out the metal siding/roof. hook up a centfrical fan to it powered by a elect motor on belt pulley, and be done w/ it. simple, cheap. salesman trying to sell him a bunch of plastic crap. calling lincoln out there to move air, is like calling the chevy dealer to fix your flat tire. simple, duct tape, screw gun, tin snips, ladder, extension cord. this can be done so cheap, it isn't even funny.

roper56
04-21-2016, 07:28 AM
many teachers aren't capable of handling money. they work for a wage, never ran a business, and make poor decisions w/ it. it's given to them, they spend it like idiots, and buy salesmans b s. its not science to move air. i could walk in there, have some hvac guy run sheet metal pipe ducting routed overhead w/ down spouts for that yellow manhole flex ducting, and pipe out the metal siding/roof. hook up a centfrical fan to it powered by a elect motor on belt pulley, and be done w/ it. simple, cheap. salesman trying to sell him a bunch of plastic crap. calling lincoln out there to move air, is like calling the chevy dealer to fix your flat tire. simple, duct tape, screw gun, tin snips, ladder, extension cord. this can be done so cheap, it isn't even funny.

And how do you sell that to the school board that is made up of men and women that get on the internet and read about what the politically correct way to protect the kids health, the school from lawsuits, the environment, the EPA, district environment and health director, doting parents that think a breath of toxic weld fumes will cause deformed babies, etc etc? Before they hired me they had already voted on and approved central fume exhaust system. It would only cover 6 booths, and the system they wanted would have used all the budget and I would have 4 stick welders period. Now I am trying to get them to compromise enough that I at least get portable systems that can be used out in the open shop and not just in a 4x4 booth, plus a couple MIG machines. My Boss saw a Texas A&M logo that I cut on a plasma table and asked about it. I explained CNC and the plasma process. He went nuts with enthusiasm and ran straight to his boss and convinced him our students need to learn CNC. I have been working for this district now 3 weeks. I don't make policy, set budgets or decide much of anything. I am scrambling to recommend what they want to hear, and hopefully get some good equipment so next fall I can teach some kids.


I am open for suggestions. I would open the roll ups and roll welding tables outside, or put them right by the doors and use fans. Whatever. Not my choice 123, I am an employee spending taxpayer's money at the direction of the school board. If you don't get that then I'm sorry.

I have a business. I am a 3rd generation Rancher. It is not easy making a living today in the cattle/horse/hay business. Try dealing with what I deal with every day. You might have a little more respect for others if you walked in their shoes awhile instead of blindly throwing sheet at them.

I believe you are a blow hard insecure moron that gets an ego boost from putting other people down.

I am here looking for possible solutions to a not great situation that isn't totally in my control.

tinker001
04-21-2016, 08:04 AM
Ok we can see that you are trying to stretch a budget to get the most from your class. Have you followed any of our suggestion? To contacting the major welding equipment suppliers directly for if they have a program to supply equipment at discounted cost or loaned equipment to support your class? Local LWS companies do not always know of programs for schools. We do not know about certain thing that they have going on. See you came into an open forum to find out something and sorry to say you are getting a lot of bad directions and negativity from people who do not deal with the general population as a whole. Now be smart let the crap roll of the duck's back. Weed out the bad information. Use the good information for direction. Understanding to that you where put in short time schedule to get all this up and running.

thegary
04-21-2016, 08:59 AM
123 does have a point. To sell the system to the board is easy enough . Just get an hvac company or a sheet metal shop in there to give you an installed price for a exhaust system with outlets and hoses for the welding stations and some articulated arms to use in the large work area that you plan to use for larger projects. 4 portables are going to be$15-$16k. That can buy a lot of duct work. You are not the first person to need this done, there companies out there that do this type of job all the time.
I do disagree with 123 in that I do not believe it will be cheaper but for the money spent it will be better, and it can be designed to be able to add on to as the program grows or changes.

forhire
04-21-2016, 12:04 PM
I have a down draft cnc plasma table. I use the down draft when I'm welding to pull the weld smoke out of the shop. I kick in on, crack the door, and it pulls the smoke right out. I'm sure that isn't an approved method but it works. I also use it to pull in cool air in the evening when I'm working late in the summer and to remove the vapor mist when running the cnc lathe hot and heavy. When I was trying to decide on a plasma table it was between down draft and water table. I opted for down draft because I just didn't want another machine throwing up water vapor... or another stinking sump to maintain. In a school where you may go several days between using a machine... coolant sumps can get pretty ripe. ;)

roper56
04-21-2016, 02:31 PM
Ok we can see that you are trying to stretch a budget to get the most from your class. Have you followed any of our suggestion? To contacting the major welding equipment suppliers directly for if they have a program to supply equipment at discounted cost or loaned equipment to support your class? Local LWS companies do not always know of programs for schools. We do not know about certain thing that they have going on. See you came into an open forum to find out something and sorry to say you are getting a lot of bad directions and negativity from people who do not deal with the general population as a whole. Now be smart let the crap roll of the duck's back. Weed out the bad information. Use the good information for direction. Understanding to that you where put in short time schedule to get all this up and running.

I have not followed any suggestions as of yet. In other words , not purchased anything. I have made notes and taken much of the good thoughts to heart. I'm still gathering ideas, facts, talking to suppliers etc.

thegary
04-21-2016, 05:38 PM
When I was in high school vocational welding class we started with gas welding first, then O/A cutting. Then we went to flat position stick welding with 6010,7018,6013 and 7014. Then we started vert up, then horizontal then to overhead. The tig welding was only given to the better welders in the class because they were done with the other stuff before any of the others were done. They did not have plasma torches at the time but I would probably teach that after stick welding. We did mig after everyone was done with stick welding so the whole class could be available for the class room instruction before hands on welding. We also had 3 days a week where one hour of class was in the class room for print reading, theory, and metallurgy .

psacustomcreations
04-21-2016, 06:08 PM
The other suggestion I would have in order to receive better advice is to include all the tidbits of information you left out of the first post. You covered a lot more of the situation in a bunch of short posts. Including much of that information early on might have prevented some of the comments.

Look at it this way, if you had said "How do I improve this xxx?" and then later posted your wire feed, later again your voltage, later your material thickness, etc. you can see how people might react.

psacustomcreations
04-21-2016, 06:09 PM
The other suggestion I would have in order to receive better advice is to include all the tidbits of information you left out of the first post. You covered a lot more of the situation in a bunch of short posts. Including much of that information early on might have prevented some of the comments.

Look at it this way, if you had said "How do I improve this xxx?" and then later posted your wire feed, later again your voltage, later your material thickness, etc. you can see how people might react.

As Paul Harvey would say, "And now you know the rest of the story."

tinker001
04-21-2016, 07:44 PM
Then if your are not following any of our suggestion. You are running out of time. School for next year is just around the corner. Equipment manufactures will allocate support only a certain number of schools.

Here is a suggestion that will probably the best bet for your information is go to the tech high school near you. Ask your questions there. To the teachers and maybe get to look around.

mr.garrett2
04-21-2016, 09:05 PM
Sorry if I repeat answers, but you said I'm wrong on my call out. So I will give you some great, honest advice. Find a local Jr College that is near with a good Welding program. Talk to the instructor and ask him/her to see what you have to work with. Get an idea of what they see, and if you like it get a written recommendation or set another meeting for a walk thru with the JC and Admin. 2 things from this are that you have credibility for setup, and you show admin you are working toward articulated courses! You may even find a great supporter in equip donations there. Now you also need to check the OSHA codes for fume extractions... You may be surprised! Open rollups and boxed fans usually pass. I honestly recommend Oxy-Fuel because you can roll a booth around near the door and sit 5 kids per side. Besides that, they learn to read a puddle, and a great project for you could be cowbells. Next I say look at the 110vac multi-process briefcase welders. They were pretty cheap last time I looked. The portable vac system has been spoken about for uselessness already, but...you could make your own that is as effective using shop vacs! Also the wood industry uses Jet overhead vac systems that take the larger particulates out of the air. Whatever you do decide to go with, get the electrician to sign off on it.

Sent from my Z830 using Tapatalk

kuzineddie
04-21-2016, 09:59 PM
No doubt you will figure it out Roper. Vega High School in Vega, TX has a premiere Ag Mechanics program. Not sure how far you are from them but a phone call might provide some good information on setting up your shop. Excellent welding program and shop I hear!

guajilloweld03
04-21-2016, 11:27 PM
Figure out what you need/want, then become friends with your districts purchasing dept. There are some rules you will have to follow, like it has to be all new equipment. Has to go out for bids over a certain amount. Then the state already has contract prices for some equipment/items like for example trucks and tractors. Not sure what is setup for welders, this where purchasing dept can guide you. Like Kuzineddie mentioned talk to somebody who has done this before, sometimes figuring out state purchasing system can be challenging.

Welder Dave
04-22-2016, 01:22 AM
Miller,Lincoln and Esab will all have special pricing for educational purposes. The Miller equipment at the tech school here (NAIT)was only about a 4% margin but they did buy hundreds of thousands worth of top of the line Miller equipment. It was part of a new 15.5 million dollar training center, the largest in Canada.

"For training students on Stick, DC-TIG, MIG and flux cored welding, NAIT recently installed 203 XMT® 350 CC/CV multi-process inverters with Auto-Line™ power management technology. Complementing these power sources are 66 (70 Series) dual wire feeders with digital meters and 102 (70 Series) dual wire feeders with digital meters and digital controls for dual schedule control, adjustable weld sequence control, weld process range control and weld program setup and storage. For training students on AC/DC TIG welding and Stick welding, NAIT selected 72 Dynasty® 350 inverters with Auto-Line and controls for high-speed pulsed DC-GTAW (up to 5,000 PPS) and AC-GTAW controls for independent EN and EP amperage control, extended balance control (30 to 99 percent EN), AC frequency adjustment (20 to 400 Hz) and four AC waveform outputs (advanced squarewave, soft squarewave, sine wave and triangular wave). - See more at: https://www.millerwelds.com/resources/article-library/inverter-technology-helps-alberta-technical-institutions-tackle-welder-shortage#sthash.7nvMGzuf.dpuf"

I'm curious if you are a licensed welder and what processes you have experience with. You mention a DC-, DC+, AC machine. Most people would just refer to it as an AC/DC knowing DC will have 2 polarities. What wasn't asked was how many students per class? A CNC plasma might be nice to have but not a necessity. You need to learn to crawl before you learn to walk. With your limited budget, spending all the money on a fancy CNC plasma might mean there's students standing around not being able to do anything because there's no machine for them to use. Worry more about teaching students so they have some skills after they finish school. I'd say get a mix of MIG and stick machines in the 200-250 amp range and not 120 volt machines. One TIG machine with AC/DC high frequency to start and maybe a 300-350 amp MIG that could run flux-core. A plasma torch like a Hypertherm Powermax 45 and track cutting machine for O/A would be beneficial. You also need 3 or 4 torch sets and carts with welding/brazing tips and a rosebud or 2. Get the large acetylene cylinders for use with the rosebud. Definitely get the local Miller or Lincoln rep involved. A good welding supply will have the manufacturer involved. I prefer Miller myself when it comes to product reps. Not that Lincoln doesn't have good reps or equipment but Lincoln has some condescending reps that think nobody else knows anything about welding.

123weld
04-22-2016, 03:38 AM
[QUOTE=psacustomcreations;7151321]The other suggestion I would have in order to receive better advice is to include all the tidbits of information you left out of the first post. You covered a lot more of the situation in a bunch of short posts.

thats what i thought psacustomcreations. 1st post sound like captain roper has 55 grand in his hot llittle hand to update a tin stick welder shop. next he's in charge of the machine shop. when we get to post #42, we find out he just crawled out of a cow pasture, and doesn't make any decisions. this pattern reminds me of someone i knew who had a long history of pain killer use, or perhaps he's just naturally on cloud 9. can you imagine what his job interview was like? they musta been looking for a "gopher", that would mingle well w/ the juvenile students.

SlickmisterN
04-22-2016, 11:21 AM
I'm still reeling from the $14k Plasma CNC he had such a hard on for in the first post. Then when asked about his exhaust, he brushed off the comments with all the confidence and wisdom saying the shop had an adequate exhaust already and he knows what he's doing... Now I guess something has changed? and he needs that 55k to cover portable fume extraction too? I think this gentlemen is in way over his head if he doesn't have the most basic of plans already in motion to meet the fall deadline. Again good luck, I hope the school isn't throwing good money after bad.

Welder Dave
04-23-2016, 01:50 AM
I wonder if maybe he's thinking some of the equipment as his own toys more than thinking about what is better for teaching his students welding skills they can use? A CNC plasma table is like buying a Rolls Royce for your first car when you have a limited budget. It might be something to consider down the road if the welding program is successful.

roper56
04-23-2016, 10:18 AM
[QUOTE=psacustomcreations;7151321]The other suggestion I would have in order to receive better advice is to include all the tidbits of information you left out of the first post. You covered a lot more of the situation in a bunch of short posts.

thats what i thought psacustomcreations. 1st post sound like captain roper has 55 grand in his hot llittle hand to update a tin stick welder shop. next he's in charge of the machine shop. when we get to post #42, we find out he just crawled out of a cow pasture, and doesn't make any decisions. this pattern reminds me of someone i knew who had a long history of pain killer use, or perhaps he's just naturally on cloud 9. can you imagine what his job interview was like? they musta been looking for a "gopher", that would mingle well w/ the juvenile students.

I should have given more information in the first post. My bad. I have not participated in internet discussions before, so learning that as well.

I'm not in charge of a machine shop, there will be some equipment , 1 lathe, a mill, band saws etc.

As far as my job interview, crawling out of a pasture, addicted to pain killers, etc.....

My interview was about a lot more than what I know about welding. Welding will not be the only thing I teach. My HS has an old metal shop as I described and they want the 2 Ag Mechanics classes to focus more on welding, and want me to set it up. I would venture to guess that there a very few AWS licensed welders/instructors available that also have a B.S. Degree in Agriculture Science and Technology and a Teaching Certification and want to teach high school Agriculture Science and Technology, and can also teach all the other Ag classes. Maybe I'm wrong and just a gopher as you say.

No, I am not a great welder with a lot of experience. No, I could not hold a candle to any of you guys in that environment. I never presented myself as such. I intended to get some help trying to figure out what to do with my budget and get ideas. I did a poor job of giving all the info some of you want.

I have reached out to many of the local Ag Teachers as well. The CNC plasma is not my choice or dream or personal toy. They are very popular around here in Ag Mech shops and administrators like "high tech" things like that. We are not a welding school. We will teach welding along with many other things under the umbrella of Career Technology Education/Ag Science.

tinker001
04-23-2016, 01:27 PM
Ok with that said then think of a smaller plasma table then 2x2 this will teach the basic of cnc. Here is one that can grow in the class when you see the need. http://gotorch.com - Plasma Cutting Tables‎ It's within a reasonable cost. Sure it will require you to build the frame If you just bought the go torch but that would let you get started for well under what you quoted.

Here is one that is all setup and would be ready for the class. with all the safety for the class. Jim Colt on here has one that is all setup for $5200 plus shipping that you could add a Hyperterm cutter to it and have it running in a short period of time. That would be the choice I would show to the admin of the school to satisfy him.

123weld
04-23-2016, 01:55 PM
[QUOTE=roper56;7157221][QUOTE=123weld;7152971]

I have not participated in internet discussions before, so learning that as well.

alright. if you feel someone over-jokes at you, maybe snap back at them, but maybe not resort to name calling so quick.

roper56
04-23-2016, 03:26 PM
[QUOTE=roper56;7157221][QUOTE=123weld;7152971]

I have not participated in internet discussions before, so learning that as well.

alright. if you feel someone over-jokes at you, maybe snap back at them, but maybe not resort to name calling so quick.

Your 2 remarks to my Introduce Yourself post about me being a racist, asking if I speak Spanish etc tells me all I need to know about you. Yes I speak Spanish, no I'm not racist, and you are right, I should not have stated the obvious by calling you a blow hard moron.

Oldendum
04-23-2016, 03:50 PM
Not sure if Texas has anything similar, but in VA some old equipment has to go back to the State for disposal. Other State agencies get first pick before stuff is auctioned off. Might be a way to get a few used welders, especially old, reliable stick welders. High school may be different if it is a county vs. state thing. Never hurts to ask.

123weld
04-23-2016, 05:03 PM
well, you didn't properly introduce yourself until post #42 in this thread. your opening post of introduce yourself, is as reflectively vague and misleading as your opening post in this thread.
it becomes evidant in post #42, you been secluded around cattle all your life in a rural state, probally having a limited interaction w/ human beings, and unable to stand up for yourself to the school staff, being faced w/ internet discussion board for the first time, and only being a gopher for 3 weeks. its now, understandable how one could be socially inferior, and the sudden exposure to society your enduring, along w/ these comments i made could have traumatized you. i would have been more gentle, if i would have known.

Aceman
04-23-2016, 06:08 PM
Just give it up 123weld. The guy is trying to outfit a school welding shop, here's not on here to defend his honor while you badger him. Save that for the off topic forum. Since you hold yourself to a higher moral standard than most on proper forum etiquette, I'm sure you won't post anymore offtopic posts in this thread, just like I won't.

Carry on.

DSW
04-23-2016, 07:01 PM
123weld, please quit trying to stir the pot. Leave Roper56 alone if you don't have something constructive and on topic to discuss. Please reread the terms of service linked at the bottom right on this page that you agreed to when joining.


You agree that you will not use our forum to post any material, or links to any material, which is knowingly false and/or defamatory, inaccurate, abusive, vulgar, hateful, harassing, obscene, profane, sexually oriented, threatening, invasive of a person's privacy, or otherwise violate any law.


Many of your comments in this thread and Ropers intro violate the statement above. You've been given some leeway to see if you'd let it drop, but it's going to end now. Consider this your warning. Keep this up and you can take some time off from posting for a bit. I'm getting tired of reading all the PM's and reports of your posts on this subject.

1406151 1406161

123weld
04-24-2016, 12:59 AM
does ropers name calling or anything in this posed link meet the criteria you listed above in blue?
http://weldingweb.com/showthread.php?547141-Painting-a-cylinder&highlight=

DSW
04-24-2016, 04:08 AM
Yes I'll admit some statements by myself in that other thread and ropers name calling could be construed as violating that statement above.

We understand that this is a site full of welders and it's not going to be G rated. For the most part we strive for something that's pretty much a heavy PG13. We also understand everyone has bad days and may post something they otherwise wouldn't, is going to make small off color jokes to one another in a friendly way, that some may take statements the wrong way or out of context, etc and so on. On occasion some people push the limits and get a slap on the wrist and basically told to knock it off. If it ends there, no harm, no foul and we can all go back to what we are here for.


I generally don't get involved in disciplining members on average. You seemed to have come out swinging at Roper right from the start in his intro thread. I took it as just a bad post possibly due to too much beer. You got a warning and told to back it down. The swings kept coming from you here in this thread. The complains are coming in from multiple members, so you got a more serious warning. If you just let it drop, no harm no foul.

123weld
04-24-2016, 03:08 PM
alright. as for ropers intro, it was a roll off comment i made to a thread a minute before where someone acting as though they couldn't speak english and was in the equador quake ecouraging us to use higher tensile strength rod. ropers thread opened next, i agree it was inappropiate, my screw up, for his thread, and what i said would make no sense to him. but being evasive or swinging at him, no, weird or inappropiate, yes. i had no hostile emotion towards him at all during or at closing of that thread.
garrets #30 post i thought was right on the money, and i would have laughed (#39) at that post no matter who was the poet.

roper56
04-24-2016, 05:21 PM
well, you didn't properly introduce yourself until post #42 in this thread. your opening post of introduce yourself, is as reflectively vague and misleading as your opening post in this thread.
it becomes evidant in post #42, you been secluded around cattle all your life in a rural state, probally having a limited interaction w/ human beings, and unable to stand up for yourself to the school staff, being faced w/ internet discussion board for the first time, and only being a gopher for 3 weeks. its now, understandable how one could be socially inferior, and the sudden exposure to society your enduring, along w/ these comments i made could have traumatized you. i would have been more gentle, if i would have known.

Era que mamma fumar crack cuando estaba embarazada de usted ?

123weld
04-24-2016, 10:51 PM
? i don't know what trying to say

NinjaRay
05-02-2016, 12:12 AM
? i don't know what trying to say

Era que mamma fumar crack cuando estaba embarazada de usted ?

His Spanish sucks, but he is asking if your mom smoked crack while she was pregnant with you.

On another note, 55k for a high school welding shop is a pipe dream and corners will have to be cut. If the board of super idiots wants to teach children about welding and safety then for 55k lincoln will gladly sell or lease their VRTEX 360 systems. No need for fume extraction or worries about lawsuits with the VRTEX 360 system!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BjRwPjJCFRM


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNZK_3zJ_J8

tinker001
05-02-2016, 01:20 AM
Era que mamma fumar crack cuando estaba embarazada de usted ?

His Spanish sucks, but he is asking if your mom smoked crack while she was pregnant with you.

On another note, 55k for a high school welding shop is a pipe dream and corners will have to be cut. If the board of super idiots wants to teach children about welding and safety then for 55k lincoln will gladly sell or lease their VRTEX 360 systems. No need for fume extraction or worries about lawsuits with the VRTEX 360 system!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BjRwPjJCFRM


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNZK_3zJ_J8

You could have left it alone has far as the translation goes.

NinjaRay
05-02-2016, 02:49 AM
You could have left it alone has far as the translation goes. You're correct!

Welder Dave
05-09-2016, 11:56 PM
Language shouldn't matter if that's what it means. Doesn't seem fitting for someone who's a teacher. Might have been provoked but still wrong. What's he going to do if a student acts up..hurl insults?