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sethmac
05-06-2016, 01:27 PM
Hi Folks,

I have a Hobart 140, and I want to put a dedicated 20amp outlet in my garage. I've installed plenty of 15a outlets, but just wanted someone to validate my approach

I plan to:
1) Add a 20amp breaker to my breaker box
2) Fish 12/2 romex from the box, through the attic to the other side of my garage
3) Install a 20amp-rated, tamper-proof GFCI outlet and chain it to another 20amp rated outlet (I figure, why add 1 outlet when i can add two).


Anything I'm missing. The guy at HomeDepot asked what I was doing and he said the GFCI would trip every time I strike an arc. I said it doesn't currently on my 15amp GFCI. Thoughts here?

Thank y'all

pin2hot
05-06-2016, 01:40 PM
Maybe the HD guy was thinking of an arc fault outlet. (AFCI) Try your idea and see if it works. Another idea (not sure of code compliance) is to put a single (Simplex, not duplex) 20 amp outlet ahead of the GFCI that will be dedicated for the welder only, as there will be no GF protection on it.

Birdhunter1
05-06-2016, 01:57 PM
Or in the box the gfci is in run a pigtail from the line to the gfci and continue the lie to your non gfci outlet.

John T
05-06-2016, 02:32 PM
I think you can also use a 20 amp GFCI breaker and regular outlets... if you want them both protected...

I've run my miller 211 on 110 / gfi outlet and never had a problem

although I usually use 220v

wornoutoldwelder
05-06-2016, 02:54 PM
Save time and perhaps money and just install a GFI breaker in the main panel...Prolly NEVER have a nuisance trip and whole circuit will be GFI protected.

A true 20 amp 120v outlet is lots more expensive than even a hospital/industrial grade 15 amp outlet, and a GFI 20 amp outlet would be more expensive still.

!2-2 will work fine depending on distance to the outlet and you must also include cord/extension cord length....Southwire has a great calculator called voltage drop calculator you can use to determine wire size and length and, but it will ask you to plug in how much voltage drop you will accept...Always stay at or below 2% voltage drop factor when calculating this sorta stuff, so start there....I mean here:

http://www.southwire.com/support/voltage-drop-calculator.htm

Use both tabs on the calculator to determine max distance, and the other for wire size.

Broccoli1
05-06-2016, 06:07 PM
Hi Folks,

I have a Hobart 140, and I want to put a dedicated 20amp outlet in my garage. I've installed plenty of 15a outlets, but just wanted someone to validate my approach

I plan to:
1) Add a 20amp breaker to my breaker box
2) Fish 12/2 romex from the box, through the attic to the other side of my garage
3) Install a 20amp-rated, tamper-proof GFCI outlet and chain it to another 20amp rated outlet (I figure, why add 1 outlet when i can add two).


Anything I'm missing. The guy at HomeDepot asked what I was doing and he said the GFCI would trip every time I strike an arc. I said it doesn't currently on my 15amp GFCI. Thoughts here?

Thank y'all

#3 cancels out the dedicated part of the "dedicated 20amp" circuit :)

farmshop
05-06-2016, 07:36 PM
If going through the work go with 10-2 and make it 30 amp and lose the gfi. I hate gfi not planning on making toast in the bathtub

sethmac
05-06-2016, 07:43 PM
#3 cancels out the dedicated part of the "dedicated 20amp" circuit :)

Touche...extra plugs were for the frequent occasions when I'm not welding.

John T
05-06-2016, 07:43 PM
If going through the work go with 10-2 and make it 30 amp and lose the gfi. I hate gfi not planning on making toast in the bathtub

I agree with the non GFI.... as far as welders.

but, I would NOT run a larger wire and breaker than required for the particular welder.

not sure what a Hobart 140 requires but the OP said he needed a 20 amp.

Iain P
05-06-2016, 08:00 PM
If going through the work go with 10-2 and make it 30 amp and lose the gfi. I hate gfi not planning on making toast in the bathtub

I second the GFCI hate. I've been zapped by two of them over the years yet they trip for no apparent reason other times. Now I will say that I have used a welder on a GFCI on plenty of occasions without trouble.

forhire
05-06-2016, 08:13 PM
15 amp outlets are allowed on a 20 amp circuit provided it is not a single outlet. A duplex outlet is considered multiple. In the case of a dedicated 20 amp circuit then a 20 amp outlet must be used. The welder has a 15 amp plug so... install a 20 amp circuit with a duplex 15 amp outlet. ;)

wornoutoldwelder
05-06-2016, 08:14 PM
I agree, but very often GFI is now required in all outbuildings and shops in many areas....Most certainly outside and in kitchens and baths.

A GFI breaker saved my sons life the day he crawled out of the pool at about 8 years old to plug his little stereo in to extension cord just inside my shop door...He was soaking wet standing on concrete barefoot and his fingers slipped and touced the plugs prongs just as they entered the outlet.

I didn't look up until the lights tripped and saw him on the floor crying....he had never been shocked before and he was confused and scared....Good...So we talked about electricity and I showed him the tripped breaker and explained it saved his life..then all about water and electricity.

He ran back to the pool and I looked at the breaker I had installed just months before when I rewired the whole shop and remembered how I had a hard time justifying the cost....and that was back when the whole GFICB stuff was very new and expensive.

DSW
05-06-2016, 08:25 PM
If going through the work go with 10-2 and make it 30 amp

That would be my choice as well. Going to 30 amp will give that machine as much power as it can want. It will not hurt the machine, as the breaker is sized to protect the wall wires, not the equipment used. However how you wire things will be very important. You can't simply go in one side of the outlet and on to a 2nd one. You'd need to tie the wires together in the box with wire nuts and use a pigtail if doing multiple outlets. My suggestion would be to just have the one single dedicated 30 amp welder outlet and skip the 2nd one myself.

Willie B
05-06-2016, 08:38 PM
A dedicated circuit is specified by nearly all welder manufacturers. A dedicated circuit involves one cable, or three individual conductors. It runs from a circuit breaker panel, to a receptacle. To be eligible for the loopholes of derating the load for welders, and upsizing the circuit breaker depend on its being a dedicated circuit. GFCI protection is almost always required. AFCI protection might be required.

Willie

John T
05-06-2016, 08:38 PM
Going to 30 amp will give that machine as much power as it can want. It will not hurt the machine, as the breaker is sized to protect the wall wires, not the equipment used.

I understand that breakers protect the wall wires... But why do manufacturers of ANY type of equipment have breaker requirements for their equipment? why not plug your toaster into a 40 amp breaker?
If something goes wrong at the appliance level.... said appliance will burn to the ground (and everything around it) before it gets close to popping the breaker.

am I wrong here?

sethmac
05-06-2016, 08:40 PM
Ok, ditching 2nd duplex. I do want it to be GFCI. Head now spinning though....sounds like I need 20amp circuit, single outlet, GFCI 12/2?

Willie B
05-06-2016, 08:46 PM
I agree, but very often GFI is now required in all outbuildings and shops in many areas....Most certainly outside and in kitchens and baths.

A GFI breaker saved my sons life the day he crawled out of the pool at about 8 years old to plug his little stereo in to extension cord just inside my shop door...He was soaking wet standing on concrete barefoot and his fingers slipped and touced the plugs prongs just as they entered the outlet.

I didn't look up until the lights tripped and saw him on the floor crying....he had never been shocked before and he was confused and scared....Good...So we talked about electricity and I showed him the tripped breaker and explained it saved his life..then all about water and electricity.

He ran back to the pool and I looked at the breaker I had installed just months before when I rewired the whole shop and remembered how I had a hard time justifying the cost....and that was back when the whole GFICB stuff was very new and expensive.

Thomas Edison was asked if the exposed "Hot" terminals in fuse blocks, and receptacles wouldn't shock people. "Only once" was the reply. Truth is I'm certain of only a few deaths from 120 volt to ground shocks. It can happen, the heart is controlled electrically, confuse the heart, it can stop. Most shocks are not across the heart. A 120 Volt shock is very unpleasant. Only occasionally will you die of it. True, it only takes once.

Willie B
05-06-2016, 08:48 PM
Ok, ditching 2nd duplex. I do want it to be GFCI. Head now spinning though....sounds like I need 20amp circuit, single outlet, GFCI 12/2?

That is the minimum. Factoring length from the utility transformer, you may want #10.

John T
05-06-2016, 08:49 PM
Thomas Edison was asked if the exposed "Hot" terminals in fuse blocks, and receptacles wouldn't shock people. "Only once" was the reply. Truth is I'm certain of only a few deaths from 120 volt to ground shocks. It can happen, the heart is controlled electrically, confuse the heart, it can stop. Most shocks are not across the heart. A 120 Volt shock is very unpleasant. Only occasionally will you die of it. True, it only takes once.

I don't think I have ever shut off the breaker when swapping out a 110 outlet/switch or ceiling light.

never been zapped.

ok,
maybe once.



or twice.


:laugh:

sethmac
05-06-2016, 09:05 PM
Willie, I plan to tun through the attic over garage (25ft?) so I can have the outlet near my workbench. If it were you, what would you use?


10/2, 20amp breaker, 1 20amp GFCI outlet?

Broccoli1
05-06-2016, 09:09 PM
You can put more than one receptacle on the circuit but it isn't a dedicated circuit/receptacle, and you really don't need a dedicated circuit.

Sounds like you just need more than 15amps.

If you need more than 20 then use the 10/2 and one receptacle. But I haven't read about anyone really needing more than 20 for the HH1.

Willie B
05-06-2016, 09:11 PM
I understand that breakers protect the wall wires... But why do manufacturers of ANY type of equipment have breaker requirements for their equipment? why not plug your toaster into a 40 amp breaker?
If something goes wrong at the appliance level.... said appliance will burn to the ground (and everything around it) before it gets close to popping the breaker.

am I wrong here?

Older circuit breakers were looking only at current. A toaster, or bad connection could cause a fire without over current. That does not mean the breaker offers no protection for the appliance. Lots of fires have started without tripping 15 or 20 amp breakers. Newer breakers have added GFCI, and/or AFCI protection. GFCI looks for imbalance of current, (or amps) between the conductors supposed to carry current. Typically current will originate in the black conductor of a 120 volt circuit, it should all return on the white. It's AC, but we'll pretend.

Arc fault looks at the sine wave of a circuit. Without arcing, it'll be a smooth S curve on an ociliscope. With arcing, that sine wave will be shaky. Arcing can be parallel, as in a nail in a wire, staple too tight, pinched, rodent chewed, or chaffed where it enters a box without a fitting. Or it can be series, a loose, or corroded connection. Modern AFCI devices do both. AFCI is required in most dwelling circuits now.

Willie

wornoutoldwelder
05-06-2016, 09:19 PM
Thomas Edison was asked if the exposed "Hot" terminals in fuse blocks, and receptacles wouldn't shock people. "Only once" was the reply. Truth is I'm certain of only a few deaths from 120 volt to ground shocks. It can happen, the heart is controlled electrically, confuse the heart, it can stop. Most shocks are not across the heart. A 120 Volt shock is very unpleasant. Only occasionally will you die of it. True, it only takes once.

I remember a diary farmer in Oklahoma that began finding his very valuable cows dead in same place beside his barn...Every so often he would find an otherwise very health cow dead in same spot...and never a mark on the cow.

Even had sheriff and vet investigate...no one knew the cause.

One day his helper leaned a tall metal ladder against the side of the barn and felt a very strong electrical tingle...He looked up and saw the ladder making contact with the pipe that ran drop from pole to meter pan on side of barn, then down under barn wall into barn.

Farmer called electrician and he discovered a bare wire inside the pipe was barely contacting the pipe and it measured well under 10-20 volts to ground....and pipe to wall clamps were clumped with cow hair because they sometimes chose to scratch themself on the pipe and clamps.

So farmer moved his hay feeder to other side of barn and paid electrician to insulate the bare part of the wire inside the pipe. No more dead cows...and it was 110V back then to whole barn and the dead cows were killed by very little volts but nuff current because they usually peed there as they ate the hay and provided a very good path to ground.

If a few volts from 110 A/C will kill cows, it will certainly kill me....It is all a matter of how much current...Higher volts just make it easier for the current to flow, but flow they will when provided solid path to ground....AS in a 12DC auto starter that easily pulls MANY, many amps when cranking if it has good tight ground circuit.

I know industrial/controls electricians that respect small wire 48VDC LOTS more than 480VAC.

DSW
05-06-2016, 09:25 PM
If something goes wrong at the appliance level.... said appliance will burn to the ground (and everything around it) before it gets close to popping the breaker.

am I wrong here?


That happens fairly regularly even with standard circuits. I know of several house fires all caused by malfunctioning electrical appliances. Neighbor across the streets daughter had her house burn when an electrical short in the pump for the fish tank caused it to catch fire. I've seen 2 or 3 electric space heaters burn up and catch fire and never trip a breaker. Standard plug in space heaters are limited to a max of 1500 watts, or about 13 amps @ 115v. Plugged into a 20 amp circuit, it's not really any different than a welder plugged into a 30 amp circuit.

Willie B
05-06-2016, 09:31 PM
Cows are very sensitive to shock. I begin to feel it at about 50 volts. A cow will exhibit distress at as little as 1/10 of a volt. One test of stress in cows is leucocyte count. Leucocytes are white blood cells. A high count indicates stress of some type. one stress is electrical shock. as little as 1/10 of 1 volt can elevate count from 80,000 to 1,000,000. Cows get mastitis, milk fever, milk production can fall 25%.

Cows stand on a damp, or wet floor barefoot. They are chained by the neck to a station with water line. Two or three times a day someone clamps a machine to their nipples. If voltage is present, they can't escape.

120 Volts may kill you. 110 won't likely, as nobody in this country has a 110 volt power source.

Willie B
05-06-2016, 09:43 PM
That happens fairly regularly even with standard circuits. I know of several house fires all caused by malfunctioning electrical appliances. Neighbor across the streets daughter had her house burn when an electrical short in the pump for the fish tank caused it to catch fire. I've seen 2 or 3 electric space heaters burn up and catch fire and never trip a breaker. Standard plug in space heaters are limited to a max of 1500 watts, or about 13 amps @ 115v. Plugged into a 20 amp circuit, it's not really any different than a welder plugged into a 30 amp circuit.

I would bet there are house fires caused by bad appliances, more common are fires caused by bad circuits. Usually a back wired receptacle, loose connection, or a wire nut wrong size, or not tight. Breaker sizes are chosen for wire with good connections. If a connection isn't up to the task of conducting 20 amps, the breaker doesn't know that. We may blame a faulty appliance, often it isn't the appliance, but the circuit it is plugged in to.

A loose connection buried in a wall supplying a circuit carrying 13 amps could easily produce 2,500 BTU trapped inside a wall.

This is why so many appliance makers insist on dedicated circuits,

Willie

wornoutoldwelder
05-06-2016, 10:37 PM
ALL building, safety, electrical and even boiler Codes are written in the blood of Human suffering and financial loss....And they evolve still as more lessons are learned daily.

The Codes we are discussing here are related to residential or industrial low voltage AC CIRCUITS....Not appliances.

There are separate codes of construction concerning electrical appliances and devices, and those too evolved and became law just as the aforementioned Codes and for many the same reasons and more...And they too still evolve daily but mostly separately from the other.

Yes, and most certainly, appliances cause perhaps equal suffering and loss, but less likely IF their supporting power supply is properly designed, constructed and maintained....Circuits are designed to provide safe power, and appliances are designed to use that power safely.

There was a time over 20 years ago that Black and Decker auto home coffee makers burned down many houses and killed many people, and certain Mr. Coffee ones that used the same super cheap thermostat that allowed the plastic coffee maker to continue to heat till it melted and caught fire while the family slept.....It took a long time for the fires to be linked to those coffee makers, and of course changes were made and more appliance Codes developed to prevent same.

20 years before that, MANY people died while they slept because of the improper use of aluminum wiring....The facts about aluminum wiring and it's proper use and compatible circuit devices simply were not then known....And lots of folks died and lots of folks lost tons of money once again.

It is all a moving target and all we today can do is simply abide by the codes as they exist and be assured the odds are almost daily less and less we will be injured or suffer losses tomorrow.

So don't allow this thread to become one where we end up chasing our tails and pointing fingers and in the process become confused about the cause and prevention aspects of total electrical safety.

farmshop
05-06-2016, 11:01 PM
30 amp circuits are nice for bigger power tools also you have a abrasive saw or large grinder that can draw 15 amps or more than plug it into a long cord to reach out to the driveway and you can trip a 20 amp. At the least I would run 10 gauge wire you can use a smaller breaker but have the option to up size

bigb
05-07-2016, 12:55 AM
That would be my choice as well. Going to 30 amp will give that machine as much power as it can want. It will not hurt the machine, as the breaker is sized to protect the wall wires,.

Except if the 20 amp receptacle is called upon to deliver more than 20 amps for any length of time it will overheat. This could happen with a duplex receptacle with two heavy loads plugged into it which is why code would require a 30 amp receptacle on that circuit, and the OP would have to put a different cord cap on his machine to match.

As long as the OP is around and only uses it for the welder I doubt anything would happen but someday the use of that circuit could change.

John T
05-07-2016, 07:24 AM
. Neighbor across the streets daughter had her house burn when an electrical short in the pump for the fish tank caused it to catch fire. .

I've actually almost had that happen years ago when I had a 55 gallon fish tank... one of the pumps got slimed up and was running hot. real hot.

luckily for me all the fish eventually got huge and jumped out of the tank to sleep on the living room floor.

gave the tanks/pumps/ everything away... goodbye headaches.

sethmac
05-07-2016, 08:26 AM
What if I run 10/2 romex on a 20amp circuit with 20 amp receptacle. If I find the breaker trips to easily with a grinder/welder combo, I can always upsize the breaker, correct?

Birdhunter1
05-07-2016, 09:23 AM
What if I run 10/2 romex on a 20amp circuit with 20 amp receptacle. If I find the breaker trips to easily with a grinder/welder combo, I can always upsize the breaker, correct?
A 10/2 wire will carry up to 30 amps, so yes a 20 amp breaker on that circuit will cause no problem.

Oldendum
05-07-2016, 10:32 AM
Consider the voltage drop over the length of the run AND the temperature in the attic where it will run. Both limit the safe current.

sethmac
05-07-2016, 10:48 AM
Assuming I did have to upgrade to 30a breaker on 10/2, what receptacle would I use? Could I still use 20amp GFCI?

wornoutoldwelder
05-07-2016, 11:31 AM
Unless you swap plugs on your welder, you will have to use a 120V 15/20 amp standard style outlet....and GFI type is fine also.

There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with wiring the circuit with 10/2 tho! :) Friend, if you even SUSPECT you might someday upgrade to a 240V welder, you might wanna install 8/2.

Willie B
05-07-2016, 11:37 AM
Depending on the duty cycle of your welder You may be able to derate load. This would only apply to a specific welder, no other loads. A 20% duty cycle is factored at 0.45 This might mean for purposes of preventing circuit component overheat, a 20 amp welder might calculate at 9 amps. This will not assure adequate voltage for good function. Typical welders are designed to work best at 115, or 230 volts. If significant voltage is lost in the circuit, feeder, or service, it won't perform as well as it could.
One industrial facility has the twin to my Miller 252 MIG. It is supplied with 500 feet round trip of #6 copper. The welder is a dog, or it would seem. I bring it home, it works fine.

Not knowing the specifics of your service, feeder, or circuit, I'll suggest #10, with a 20 amp commercial grade single receptacle, and 20 amp GFCI breaker. If you plug something else into it, it'll still be protected.

sethmac
05-07-2016, 03:57 PM
Rather than feeding through the attic, what would be the easiest way to add a receptacle right next to the flush mounted electrical box?


What I mean is, can I just cut an old work right below my electrical panel?

sethmac
05-07-2016, 07:32 PM
Ok, my plan is to follow Willie's advice: #10, with a 20 amp commercial grade single receptacle, and 20 amp GFCI breaker

Rather than running across the attic, I'm content to have the plug right below the electrical box (see red outline in picture). Any code issues I need to worry about here?

My thought was to use a knockout in the bottom of the box, run a small piece of #10, and use an old work box. Any worries with my approach...ready to get this done and start working on my feeder :)

1416071
1416081

Birdhunter1
05-07-2016, 07:52 PM
Nothing at all wrong with it. Just use a heavy enough extension cord anywhere you need to move your machine.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Willie B
05-07-2016, 09:29 PM
Run through the attic. An extension cord is as handy as a window air conditioner on a submarine. #10 is good for 90 Degrees C. About 20 F below boiling. It won't generate hardly any heat at 20 amps. Pass the cable in a safe place through the attic with no connections.

Willie

sethmac
05-07-2016, 09:39 PM
That location will not necessitate an extension cord once I have a table

wornoutoldwelder
05-07-2016, 09:56 PM
Ok, my plan is to follow Willie's advice: #10, with a 20 amp commercial grade single receptacle, and 20 amp GFCI breaker

Rather than running across the attic, I'm content to have the plug right below the electrical box (see red outline in picture). Any code issues I need to worry about here?

My thought was to use a knockout in the bottom of the box, run a small piece of #10, and use an old work box. Any worries with my approach...ready to get this done and start working on my feeder :)

1416071
1416081

Yup, I would do it exactly like in the picture using same you described.

EXCEPT, locate the outlet to either side of main panel and screw it to a wall stud cause them commercial/industrial outlets are hard to plug/unplug(and should be)

Hell, you have 8 open spaces in that panel. You got plenty of room to expand with more toys! :) You also already have lots of GFI breakers, too...Cool.

tinker001
05-07-2016, 10:00 PM
Here is a rule that I have always use when wiring in a house that I live in. What ever the code say that a circuit should be I go up one size for my on peace of mind. 14ga is good for 15 amps, 12ga is good for 20 amps, 10ga is good for 30 amps, and 8ga is good for 40 amps. So I go to the next gauge wire up.Sure it might cost me a little more but I know this much the wiring running between the breaker and the plug(s) is not going to a problem if the circuit is overloaded. Breaker stay the same for the circuit is a 15 amps then that is what the breaker is. I do not derate for duty cycle in a house. This is my way of knowing no matter is plugged in to that outlet I 'm cover inside the walls which I can not see. I also do the same with extension cords. No I do not have a single 18ga extension cord in my house or garage.

bearston
05-08-2016, 03:27 PM
One thing I noticed is that you are planning to use Romex either in the attic or on the wall in the garage. I did the same a number of years ago in my garage and within a year found that either squirrels, raccoons or mice had eaten through the cable, I guess they like that flavour. My advice is to go either with BX, a flexible armour clad cable or conduit. The advantage of conduit is that you can easily change wire gauge, add more wires or take them away as necessary all with the added benefit of maintaining the integrity of the insulation and minimizing potential fire or electrocution, ie no teeth marks exposing live wires. Using larger size conduit allows for more wires therefore more circuits. Up here in my town, electrical code states that any wire not behind a wall must be either BX or conduit, Romex would not be approved by code and if the insurance company found out, they would cancel any payouts due to the negligence of the installer or not having a certified electrician install the circuit. I hope that you take these points into consideration when choosing your wire. :drinkup:

mad welder 4
05-08-2016, 03:45 PM
Why not put in a 30 amp detected welder circuit?
Then you know it will never trip.

sethmac
05-08-2016, 04:15 PM
One thing I noticed is that you are planning to use Romex either in the attic or on the wall in the garage. I did the same a number of years ago in my garage and within a year found that either squirrels, raccoons or mice had eaten through the cable, I guess they like that flavour. My advice is to go either with BX, a flexible armour clad cable or conduit. The advantage of conduit is that you can easily change wire gauge, add more wires or take them away as necessary all with the added benefit of maintaining the integrity of the insulation and minimizing potential fire or electrocution, ie no teeth marks exposing live wires. Using larger size conduit allows for more wires therefore more circuits. Up here in my town, electrical code states that any wire not behind a wall must be either BX or conduit, Romex would not be approved by code and if the insurance company found out, they would cancel any payouts due to the negligence of the installer or not having a certified electrician install the circuit. I hope that you take these points into consideration when choosing your wire. :drinkup:
Not following you here..the romex is run in the wall

sethmac
05-08-2016, 06:10 PM
Willie, is the GFCI going to give me fits? Everything I read says it's required on 110 (though the Home Depot guys keep telling me it's not)

bearston
05-08-2016, 06:26 PM
Hmmm, somehow I did miss this: "...Rather than running across the attic, I'm content to have the plug right below the electrical box..."

Willie B
05-09-2016, 12:51 PM
GFCI protection should not be adversely affected by a welder. 120 volt welders I have only used a bit on GFCI circuits, I've never had a problem.

Willie

fajitas21
05-19-2016, 04:35 PM
I know this is a little late, but I had a Hobart Handler 140 on a GFCI outlet (20 AMP) with 12/2 wire going to a 20amp breaker. Wire run was 85 ft. Ran like a champ. Hope that helps if you're on the fence. Nothing wrong with bumping up in wire size, just throwing out there it ran great.

mad welder 4
05-19-2016, 05:43 PM
Something like 60% to 70% of residential fires are caused by fixed wiring.

fps
05-19-2016, 07:16 PM
Just remember, dollars to donuts, the hobart cord plug wire is, at best, 14 gauge. So, that is the weakest link in the chain.

fajitas21
05-19-2016, 08:06 PM
Something like 60% to 70% of residential fires are caused by fixed wiring.

Just to make sure I know what you mean, I assume you mean fixed as in hardwired, without plug, directly to the device?

If so, I agree. NEC in Texas (probably elsewhere too) states all consumer replaceable equipment should be wired to a plug. My range, dishwasher, garbage disposal and microwave are wired to plugs. I'm kind of paranoid about electrical, because when I remodeled my house I found some horrifying things, so I ran 5 20amp 12/2 wire circuits and one 30amp 10/3 circuit for just the Kitchen. That's over 100amps to my kitchen :)

Willie B
05-19-2016, 09:23 PM
Just to make sure I know what you mean, I assume you mean fixed as in hardwired, without plug, directly to the device?

If so, I agree. NEC in Texas (probably elsewhere too) states all consumer replaceable equipment should be wired to a plug. My range, dishwasher, garbage disposal and microwave are wired to plugs. I'm kind of paranoid about electrical, because when I remodeled my house I found some horrifying things, so I ran 5 20amp 12/2 wire circuits and one 30amp 10/3 circuit for just the Kitchen. That's over 100amps to my kitchen :)

Therefore there are absolutely no hazards in your home.

Fixed wiring is the stuff you don't unplug to move. I will add to Mad Welder's post that failure, (sometimes fire), is almost unheard of mid span in undamaged cable. Nearly 100% of Mad Welder's statistic happens either at the end of conductors, or where cable is damaged mid span. There's a lot of math involved, lots of care to keep cable out of harm's way, but mostly, it comes down to good connections. Run as many heavy cables to your kitchen as you like, Half a$$ed connections can still burn your house.

Willie

mad welder 4
05-19-2016, 10:46 PM
Yeah I figured it was mostly at the wire to plug/switch or junction connection unless someone over loads a wire by putting in too big of a bigger breaker.

bigb
05-19-2016, 10:48 PM
Just to make sure I know what you mean, I assume you mean fixed as in hardwired, without plug, directly to the device?

:)

Fixed wiring is the permanent wiring installed in your walls as opposed to cords and equipment. Here are some stats:
http://www.interfire.org/features/electric_wiring_faults.asp

I take those stats with a grain of salt as I believe that a large percentage of fire investigation conclusions are incorrect. Many fire investigators do not really understand electricity, this I have seen myself on several occasions where the cause was incorrectly identified.

fajitas21
05-19-2016, 11:15 PM
I'm struggling to gather the intent of your post, but I'll assume sarcasm, considering we both know it would be arrogant and unrealistic to think my home is without hazard. I mentioned my wiring to illustrate I agree that consideration of load, and using the right wire / outlets is important. Also, after research, the HH140 is to be wired with at least those specs. I realize most people on the internet, especially on a forum, believe we think we know everything, but I'm always the first to admit there's so much more to learn. I paid an electrician to install my breakers, and to assist me with the setup. My expertise is carpentry, not electrical, but he's taught me many things about it, and I try to follow code pretty strictly.

When remodeling my kitchen, I opened a wall and discovered a 240v wire laying, without a splice box or external access, LIVE in my wall. Just cut off and hooked up. Apparnetly, in a previous life, my kitchen must have had an oven there. Not to mention there were arcing marks around the jacket of the wire where it was stapled too tightly. I went into my attic and discovered 4 splices, not in a box, one was actively arcing when bumped, just laying loose in the rockwool insulation.

I have a 1 y/o son. I paid a professional, who I've become friends with over time, to thoroughly check out my house. It's still not bullet proof, but I'd imagine most people would be worried if they knew the state of their older homes, and what "handymen" have done to make things work over the years. A popular thing I had to undo in every room was to remove the ground wire which was used as an accessory for the fan/light switches because they didn't want to run 14/3 or 12/3, so they just used the ground as the "3rd wire" to run the fan or light. It was in all 3 bedrooms and my living room.

I genuinely apologize if my previous post made you think I was an authority on this subject, and I considered my house bulletproof. I just joined these forums and appreciate keeping good relationships with everyone. I'll duck out of this thread as to not incur additional trouble.

fps
05-20-2016, 06:31 AM
[QUOTEI genuinely apologize if my previous post made you think I was an authority on this subject, and I considered my house bulletproof. I just joined these forums and appreciate keeping good relationships with everyone. I'll duck out of this thread as to not incur additional trouble.[/QUOTE]

After being on "Compuserve" from the very early 90's, don't worry about what others write. "Writing" without "audio" is about the worst thing for communication. You can quickly learn who to listen to, and who to ignore.
Pete

Willie B
05-20-2016, 07:12 AM
I'm struggling to gather the intent of your post, but I'll assume sarcasm, considering we both know it would be arrogant and unrealistic to think my home is without hazard. I mentioned my wiring to illustrate I agree that consideration of load, and using the right wire / outlets is important. Also, after research, the HH140 is to be wired with at least those specs. I realize most people on the internet, especially on a forum, believe we think we know everything, but I'm always the first to admit there's so much more to learn. I paid an electrician to install my breakers, and to assist me with the setup. My expertise is carpentry, not electrical, but he's taught me many things about it, and I try to follow code pretty strictly.

When remodeling my kitchen, I opened a wall and discovered a 240v wire laying, without a splice box or external access, LIVE in my wall. Just cut off and hooked up. Apparnetly, in a previous life, my kitchen must have had an oven there. Not to mention there were arcing marks around the jacket of the wire where it was stapled too tightly. I went into my attic and discovered 4 splices, not in a box, one was actively arcing when bumped, just laying loose in the rockwool insulation.

I have a 1 y/o son. I paid a professional, who I've become friends with over time, to thoroughly check out my house. It's still not bullet proof, but I'd imagine most people would be worried if they knew the state of their older homes, and what "handymen" have done to make things work over the years. A popular thing I had to undo in every room was to remove the ground wire which was used as an accessory for the fan/light switches because they didn't want to run 14/3 or 12/3, so they just used the ground as the "3rd wire" to run the fan or light. It was in all 3 bedrooms and my living room.

I genuinely apologize if my previous post made you think I was an authority on this subject, and I considered my house bulletproof. I just joined these forums and appreciate keeping good relationships with everyone. I'll duck out of this thread as to not incur additional trouble.

Sorry, you touched a nerve there. I hear it all the time, some guy runs 14 cables to his kitchen counter outlets, splitting each duplex outlet into two circuits, pounding an outlet, and two 12/2 WG NM-B cables into 10 Cubic inch boxes, nails the OW boxes to the stud at a 10 degree angle, cutting off the ground wires, then brags about how safe it is.

Willie

DanD78
05-20-2016, 07:30 AM
While you are pulling wire run another circit for a 50A plug. You will soon out grow that 110V welder.

Dan D.

Beemer533
05-30-2016, 06:29 AM
Here is a rule that I have always use when wiring in a house that I live in. What ever the code say that a circuit should be I go up one size for my on peace of mind. 14ga is good for 15 amps, 12ga is good for 20 amps, 10ga is good for 30 amps, and 8ga is good for 40 amps. So I go to the next gauge wire up.Sure it might cost me a little more but I know this much the wiring running between the breaker and the plug(s) is not going to a problem if the circuit is overloaded. Breaker stay the same for the circuit is a 15 amps then that is what the breaker is. I do not derate for duty cycle in a house. This is my way of knowing no matter is plugged in to that outlet I 'm cover inside the walls which I can not see. I also do the same with extension cords. No I do not have a single 18ga extension cord in my house or garage.
Just an FYI, but there is already a lot of overhead in the wiring protection.

The actual ampacity of 14/12/10 is quite a bit more than the 15/20/30 Amps that NEC limits them to.

See NEC table 310.15: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.barr-thorp.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/Digest-176-NEC-Tables.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwjAqLOhx4HNAhUFqx4KHWAcA40QFggbMAA&usg=AFQjCNEFf1PwjGEGvfUddcYjgg8L4zsCdw&sig2=u_wjPWiUlYSsykNjA6Dr4Q

Obviously it doesn't hurt anything (other than your wallet) by upsizing, but neither does it provide any benefit.

Also be aware that you will run into the legal fill limits in your boxes very quickly with oversized wire.

For the OP, there is no benefit whatsoever to using 10awg for a 20A circuit, outside of accounting for voltage drop, which is obviously not an issue here. You can't get more than 20A from a 20A breakered circuit anyway, or using a 20A outlet.

Just install 12/2 and a standard 20A outlet and you will never have issues with the Hobart.

This post edited by the NSA

Willie B
05-30-2016, 08:48 AM
Before 1985 household electrical cable was rated at 60 degrees C. In 1985 the suffix -B was added to NM. The primary change in spec was temperature rating. Now NM-B is good for 90Degrees C. It is better able to pass through hot areas such as attics, and furnace rooms. Still the connections, on receptacles, switches, and circuit breakers are only rated at 75D C, or even 60D C. Hence, the limitation of 15,20,30 for 14,12,10. In circuits specifically installed for specific welders, Code gives factors based on duty cycle. Unlike an air conditioner for example, a welder can't run at full capacity constantly. The cable supplying it can cool while the welder cools.

Often using the smaller wire allowed in code can give problems with voltage loss. Some inverter welders self adjust to low voltage. Transformer welders use more amperage, with less output under low voltage conditions. They make more internal heat.

Long runs from the utility transformer need bigger conductors to preserve precious voltage.

Willie

Beemer533
05-30-2016, 10:02 AM
Very true, but the OP only has a 2' run, so voltage drop doesn't come into play in this case.

This post edited by the NSA

Willie B
05-30-2016, 01:49 PM
A common scenario might be a transformer serving a neighborhood. Secondary voltage sometimes runs from pole to pole. A service drop underground, or overhead might be 150 to 500 Feet. Service cable runs to the service disconnect, and a feeder might supply a remote breaker panel. Then something must run to the garage. A circuit then supplies an extension cord. Voltage might be critically low from cumulative loss. A two foot circuit won't matter much. Longer circuits, it can be important.

Willie