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Slob
11-14-2016, 10:35 AM
My shop is 70X100 with 18 ft. sidewalls. It is a steel insulated building without a ceiling and the end wall eaves are 27 ft. high. I have 27 400 watt metal halide fixtures and it really is fairly bright but expensive to operate with all of them burning. I see LED conversion bulbs becoming available and am considering changing to those. The conversion bulbs are about $80.00 each when purchased in bulk and use about 60 watts, IIRC. Don't know if I should go with these retrofits, or replace the fixtures w/T5 six, or eight tube florescent fixtures at about $160.00 each w/bulbs supplied? All bulbs mentioned render about a 80-85 CRI at 80%.

Anybody with any experience in lighting?

Thanks,

CEP
11-14-2016, 12:13 PM
My shop is 40’ X 48’. 16-feet to the bottom of the trusses. I went with Brooder lights, with 150-watt flood lights at first. Now I use those little curly light bulbs. Plenty of light in the shop.
https://www.nrsworld.com/bayco/bayco-10_5in-brooder-clamp-light-147811?utm_source=bing&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=BPA&utm_term=1103400714516&utm_content=BPA%20-%20All%20Products

12345678910
11-14-2016, 12:35 PM
Light loses intensity with distance

It's an inverse squared relationship, so if you can get the lights twice as close, the light gets 4 times brighter.

Putting LED's in the ceiling fixture of the halides won't do what you want.


LED's are still expensive here, I do like the T8's with daylight 6500K lights.



If you're in reading glasses, did you ever notice you can still read a newspaper in the sunlight without the glasses ?
That's the colour of thelight daylight 6500K light.
It's bluish, bright sunlight, like the blue sky sunny day.

Put them on chains, or whatever it takes to get them lower



If you can't do that the T5 fluorescents are made for high bay lighting.

Slob
11-14-2016, 01:05 PM
Light loses intensity with distance

It's an inverse squared relationship, so if you can get the lights twice as close, the light gets 4 times brighter.

Putting LED's in the ceiling fixture of the halides won't do what you want.


LED's are still expensive here, I do like the T8's with daylight 6500K lights.



If you're in reading glasses, did you ever notice you can still read a newspaper in the sunlight without the glasses ?
That's the colour of thelight daylight 6500K light.
It's bluish, bright sunlight, like the blue sky sunny day.

Put them on chains, or whatever it takes to get them lower



If you can't do that the T5 fluorescents are made for high bay lighting.

You are correct. I run 6500K in the spray booth with 100 foot candle illumination at the work plane. The balance of the shop was 65 foot candles at the work plane which is a good balance for productivity in an auto body shop atmosphere. I've seen several shops retrofitted with the t5 fixtures and have seen the illumination patterns of the fixtures when mounted 15' from the floor, (where my existing fixtures mount) and they would do very well at twice the cost of the retrofit LED lamps in the existing fixtures. I have no experience with the LED conversion at all and have not seen illumination patterns at this writing. They have been solicited from engineering but not arrived yet.

Thanks,

mla2ofus
11-14-2016, 06:00 PM
Haven't seen it with my eyes, but a friend just put up a new 40'x35' shop. He ordered 16 4' LED fixtures with two rows of LEDS similar to a fluorescent fixture. Don't know all the specs on them, but he said he paid $78 per pair for them. He showed me a pic of the shop and it looked well lighted. The walls are 12' high on the gable roofed shop so I don't know how high he hung them. I would guess 12' minimum.
Mike

Broccoli1
11-14-2016, 06:36 PM
The LED conversion will certainly save you money. That's an easy one.

Metal Halide= 10,800 watts

LED = 1,620 watts

are you correct on the $60.00 pricing for your application?

Slob
11-14-2016, 06:55 PM
The LED conversion will certainly save you money. That's an easy one.

Metal Halide= 10,800 watts

LED = 1,620 watts

are you correct on the $60.00 pricing for your application?

They are right at $80.00 each in a quantity of 30 bulbs. This includes incoming freight charges.

The T5 high bay fixures use 54 watts X six tubes for a total of 324w per fixture plus a little for heating loss/efficiency.

Broccoli1
11-14-2016, 07:11 PM
Probably get some incentive Green money switching to LED as well.

Worth a look. Probably need a bigger investment but hey, why not.

It is still a business cost so it counts as a write off for tax time :)


LED has come quite a ways since they were first introduced.

WTXBTUMOVER
11-14-2016, 07:42 PM
My brother used t5 high bay lights in his shop. It's 40x60x12 with 6 lights, 20x20 area per light. It's pretty well lit. Personally, I probably would have went with 3 lights per row, but I like overkill lighting in the shop.

I wired a larger shop with the same type and it turned out really well also.

My brother's shop.

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161114/f514c523f97e76c90002302ad17a17be.jpg

Zach

AFFENDE
11-15-2016, 12:21 AM
The shop in TN where i used to work had the metal Halide lights. When the place sold, the new owners updated the shop lighting in the fab bay to the T5 HighBay lights.

It was a world of difference, and we had 25' to the hook on our under slung crane, the lights were likely 30-32 ft off the floor.

Slob
11-15-2016, 01:27 AM
My fixtures are right at 17 years old now as I built the place in 2000-2001 timeframe. Halide were the way to go then and being an auto body shop for both automobiles and large trucks along with some trailers necessitated the size. I actually have another 50'X100' addition purchased at the same time but never erected also. Around here most buildings have been retrofitted with the T5 fixtures but the cost is about double for the florescent fixtures as opposed to the LED conversion reutilizing the existing fixtures. Once I get the illumination patterns of the LED bulbs in the type luminaire I have, the decision will be made for the best coverage, light output and cost of operation. I have seven lighting zones now each controlled by switch and the spray room/booth is separate yet.

I'm going to retire from my engineering job during the first quarter and start anew on something else. Auto body repair is no longer a consideration so most of that infrastructure will be sold off. Not really clear where I'm going as don't need to work, but not ready to quit yet; we'll see what the future brings.

Thanks,

Willie B
11-15-2016, 08:56 AM
We have done a factory where they build wind turbines. I feel it is over lit. We used Lithonia IBH12L LED fixtures. The building , if I remember correctly, is 120 x 70. with 12 foot ceilings. We used 47 fixtures, at 12000 lumens. Fixtures cost about $12,000 with an Efficiency Vermont rebate of around $6000. They draw 5000 watts or 5 KWH per hour all are on. We have them on three switches, so there is usually no need to have all on at once. We needed so many fixtures because of the low ceiling height. I believe there is a 24000 lumen fixture at similar cost if you can mount higher. These could be spread farther apart for even light distribution in your building.

Another factor that is very important is wall/ceiling reflectivity. A town garage we lit years ago was painfully dim. I talked the selectmen into getting the whitewasher who does dairy barns to spray. It was amazing how much better it was!

A new to the market product is a 32 watt LED flood bulb for ordinary medium base sockets 120 volt. Light is equivalent to 250 watt halogen. They are rated at 50,000 hours life.After rebate, they are around $15 dollars each.

Let me know how it works out.

Willie

All of the major lighting manufacturers offer free design service. Give info about your building, they design a lighting system.

T5 fluorescent is old, inefficient technology now, as LED will be in a few years.

Willie B
11-15-2016, 09:05 AM
The few T5 buildings we've done are a constant problem with bulbs, and ballasts. One had a momentary blip when the power company lost one leg of the 480 Y three phase. Blue smoke escaped about 1/4 of the ballasts in an 80 x 200' building.

Willie

Slob
11-15-2016, 09:19 AM
Thanks Willie;

I've been at this for quite some time and have a couple of lighting studies already using different approaches. The foot candle per square meter on the workplane is a very good measure of light quality and enhances productivity greatly. In a former life absolute color rendition was a necessity when one is working on other's second largest expenditure in life...... For example put a less than absolute color match to the side of a high end European automobile and send it out the door to measure your reputation and see where it gets you.....

As mentioned 65 foot candles on the workplane is very easy to exist within and not be blinded. The coverages different fixtures provide is astounding so research is needed. As you mention most larger lighting suppliers with generate a lighting layout for your facility and a couple I've used have actually taken photos to send in. Livonia lighting was one for certain.

My layout utilizing T5 fixtures requires 37 fixtures to eliminate shadowing and I really don't want to install that many lights. I'm going to line the sidewalls and possibly install a ceiling which will all be white and then have another lighting map created. The wall insulation is white and quite bright in reflection, but a steel liner would be much more cosmetically pleasing.

I too believe flourescent lighting is going to supplanted in the future but have no idea as to timeframe. LED technology is dropping in cost rapidly and certainly uses less power to operate.

rexcormack
11-15-2016, 09:20 AM
Fluorescent fixtures don't do well in cold climates. Unless you PAY MORE MONEY for the low temperature versions.

86turbodsl
11-15-2016, 09:37 AM
I have a 40x64 building with 14' ceilings. I had 400w metal halides and also like you found it expensive to run. I switched to T5HO fixtures and i couldn't be happier. TONS of light and much cheaper to run. That's what i'd recommend.

Sent from my SM-N910T using Tapatalk

97ZJ
11-15-2016, 09:51 AM
The machine shop I support is actively moving to LED fixtures as the budget allows. 180,000 square feet of shop lighting gets expensive, so it has to be done in stages... About 10 years ago, they swapped everything out to T8 fixtures. Now, those are starting to cost as much in ballasts and bulbs as an LED fixture.

The biggest struggle they have is getting the color/lumen combination right, so the machinists don't get all out of whack. And then there are the picky office people, which brings a whole new struggle...

scsmith42
11-15-2016, 10:55 AM
One of my shops is 50 x 60 with 15'6" ceilings. I originally installed 400w metal Halide low bay fixtures and some t8 fixtures above the work benches and was pleased with the light distribution.

I have replaced two of the MH fixtures with 6 bulb T5 high bay fixtures. The t5's put out nice light, but it is more concentrated below the fixture whereas the MH low bays distribute more evenly in the space.

I'd like to learn more about the LED conversions for the MH fixtures.

12345678910
11-15-2016, 03:07 PM
Another factor that is very important is wall/ceiling reflectivity. A town garage we lit years ago was painfully dim. I talked the selectmen into getting the whitewasher who does dairy barns to spray. It was amazing how much better it was!

.

they say it's 85% ish reflection

BaTu
11-15-2016, 04:56 PM
In front of my barn, a little over 20' high, I have had this 120W Led Streetlight for 3-4 yrs now. It throws a 60-80' circle of really good light and I believe cost less than $200 today. I'd have to think that 4 of these inside your building would do the trick ;)

Willie B
11-15-2016, 06:21 PM
Thanks Willie;

I've been at this for quite some time and have a couple of lighting studies already using different approaches. The foot candle per square meter on the workplane is a very good measure of light quality and enhances productivity greatly. In a former life absolute color rendition was a necessity when one is working on other's second largest expenditure in life...... For example put a less than absolute color match to the side of a high end European automobile and send it out the door to measure your reputation and see where it gets you.....

As mentioned 65 foot candles on the workplane is very easy to exist within and not be blinded. The coverages different fixtures provide is astounding so research is needed. As you mention most larger lighting suppliers with generate a lighting layout for your facility and a couple I've used have actually taken photos to send in. Livonia lighting was one for certain.

My layout utilizing T5 fixtures requires 37 fixtures to eliminate shadowing and I really don't want to install that many lights. I'm going to line the sidewalls and possibly install a ceiling which will all be white and then have another lighting map created. The wall insulation is white and quite bright in reflection, but a steel liner would be much more cosmetically pleasing.

I too believe flourescent lighting is going to supplanted in the future but have no idea as to timeframe. LED technology is dropping in cost rapidly and certainly uses less power to operate.

The Efficiency incentives, together with incredible life expectancy, and low consumption make LED the only choice here. I bet you have similar incentives where you live.

Sunday I was in a building with T5 lighting, the orange wire looked red. Taking it outside in sunlight, it was indeed orange. I consider color temperature, and color rendering better with LED.

Willie

Slob
11-15-2016, 06:35 PM
The Efficiency incentives, together with incredible life expectancy, and low consumption make LED the only choice here. I bet you have similar incentives where you live.

Sunday I was in a building with T5 lighting, the orange wire looked red. Taking it outside in sunlight, it was indeed orange. I consider color temperature, and color rendering better with LED.

Willie

those 3500k T5 fixtures distort actual colors terrible. If you go higher than a 5000k lamp, the CRI is much better albeit higher cost. It's all in the design of the lamp and the coatings used. The Halide fixtures I used in the booth are 6500k, and the main shop was 5000k which simulates daylight fairly close. One needs enough fixtures to eliminate shadowing but the cost goes up and up.....

I'm wanting to go with LED fixtures for certain due to life expectancy and cost of operation. Just don't know if it's best to reutilize my existing luminaires, or replace them altogether.

Willie B
11-16-2016, 08:27 AM
I've got quite a few T8 fixtures relamped with LED. I'm not good with color, my family all are, 100% of my customers are obsessed with color temperature, and rendering. No complaints with LED, but most prefer 4100 Kelvin. In the 6000 range, they complain about institutional harshness. The one exception is a lady, a doctor of some variety. She has Seasonal Affective Disorder, In her home It's lit way too bright with full spectrum bulbs.

Willie

ManoKai
11-16-2016, 09:01 AM
Subscribed. We have 4ea, dual T5s in a small shop. Fixtures purchased/install a decade earlier. Don't recall the temp/color. The light quality is solid. To date, none of the lights have needed replacement.

When we expand, we will be going with an LED-based solution. The lifetime operational cost $avings and fixturing options for LEDs is attractive.

Willie B
11-16-2016, 09:20 AM
I have a limited number of facilities I work on lighted with T5 fluorescents. The one with all the trouble uses multi volt ballasts, max voltage is 277, which is what they are connected to. The catastrophic failure event was when the power company lost a leg of the 13,500 incoming primary. I theorize the loss of magnetic choke caused an increase in current in the remaining phase. Wild fluctuations in voltage would result.

On a normal week, shut down on Sunday causes a not sophisticated capacitor bank to spike voltage. I've been lobbying to set up a transformer they already have, and powering the lighting from 240 volt.

Willie

bent
11-16-2016, 09:25 AM
I have a mixture of LED high bay lights with prismatic reflectors and T5HO with mirrored reflectors. Both are installed at 20-23'. Both were wired 240 volt, as I could get twice as many lumens on a 12 gauge wire circuit.

IIRC the payback in terms of Lumens/$ of electricity was 3,000 hours of use. If this is a two shift building, its a no brainer for the LED. If it is a 20 hour/week shop, its a no brainer for the T5HO, as by the time you burn out the first set of light bulbs the LED will be cheaper and brighter.

The LED high bay have the lumen output of a 4 bulb T5HO fixture.

You need the prismatic reflectors on the LED high bay lights, as the emitters are painfully bright to see. The prismatic reflectors also give back lighting, which works well with a white ceiling.

I got my lights from Econolight.

WTXBTUMOVER
11-16-2016, 10:29 AM
I have a limited number of facilities I work on lighted with T5 fluorescents. The one with all the trouble uses multi volt ballasts, max voltage is 277, which is what they are connected to. The catastrophic failure event was when the power company lost a leg of the 13,500 incoming primary. I theorize the loss of magnetic choke caused an increase in current in the remaining phase. Wild fluctuations in voltage would result.

On a normal week, shut down on Sunday causes a not sophisticated capacitor bank to spike voltage. I've been lobbying to set up a transformer they already have, and powering the lighting from 240 volt.

Willie

One time I had a call for the HVAC on a building not working that had lost a leg of power. The lights were randomly flashing on and off. I'm guessing they were being backfed power through motors, etc and cycling off when there wasn't enough power to run everything. I'm sure that would play hell with the ballasts, especially electronic ones.

KMA
11-16-2016, 09:49 PM
I've got quite a few T8 fixtures relamped with LED. I'm not good with color, my family all are, 100% of my customers are obsessed with color temperature, and rendering. No complaints with LED, but most prefer 4100 Kelvin. In the 6000 range, they complain about institutional harshness. The one exception is a lady, a doctor of some variety. She has Seasonal Affective Disorder, In her home It's lit way too bright with full spectrum bulbs.

Willie
I agree that 4100 is close to perfect. Probably anywhere between 4k and 5k. Any higher and it becomes too blueish and clinical.

savin yours
11-18-2016, 09:24 PM
I went with cheapo sams LED's, 16 of them in my 60x40x16. http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161119/9fb8b8ead24f1435380c829c0c912a01.jpghttp://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161119/f9687f2381ad0a1ef895ff165cb598db.jpghttp://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161119/8c03dc5e4a1669201aaf09b31b11aad7.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

OutOnaLimb
11-18-2016, 09:35 PM
1550201
First post with an attachment. Hopefully it works.
I'm in the process of finishing my shop. It's 25'w x 50'd x 16' h and needed some form of light and jammed this up. This is one high bay led from home Depot. The shadows from a single light are horrible, but I'm impressed with the light and plan to put a few more up.

Alabass
11-22-2016, 03:45 PM
Another fan of LED's here. I had them put in when I built my 30'x40' shop last year and have been pleased.

KMA
11-22-2016, 09:18 PM
I put dual T8 fixtures in my 24x36 building. Since the pic was taken, I converted a pair over to LED as a test and measured about 70% more light output. That was the plan from the start, so I'll be doing the rest in the near future.

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20161123/ff7df74bd38cf25ad6dc3abc8a0a2aec.jpg

whtbaron
11-22-2016, 09:24 PM
Did you use the conversion bulbs that need an electronic ballast, or no ballast?

KMA
11-22-2016, 10:01 PM
Did you use the conversion bulbs that need an electronic ballast, or no ballast?
the bulbs I picked up can do either. It's probably a bit more energy efficient to remove the ballast, but more work.

10 PACK - T8 LED Tube Light 4ft 48", 18W, 4000K Kelvin (Cool White), 2,000 Lumens, Works WITH or without a Ballast! Fluorescent Replacement Light Lamp, Clear Cover, UL, ETL, DLC. Plug and Play https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01CRB8ITO/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_yJpnyb8X73V5M