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FearcityINC
12-26-2006, 05:34 PM
Hey everyone, I just bought a 175 today, so far so good. My mind got to wonderin if I could take my Miller 304, hook the leads up to the Lincoln, and use my Miller for a power supply? My honest guess is that the drive motor wont work, or the Lincoln would spontaneously combust. Oh yeah I am talking about the polarity wires inside the spool door. Thanks.

Doolittle
12-26-2006, 11:23 PM
What? are you crazy man?

snicker, yea yea! go ahead! wont hurt nothin... sure it wont... snicker..

seriously, I wouldnt do it, theres probably some sorta protection circuit on the output the little mig that might simply go 'pop' and leave you breathing burnt silicon and laquer fumes. It might be interesting to put a meter on the 'unpluged receptacle of the lincoln and see how the reverse power effects the transformer (if any current makes it that far) though. I mean if I didnt wanto worry about hurting the lincoln that is.

If you could disconnect the positve lead from the gun in the lincoln and have a positive wire coming from the 304 and insulate it from ground inside the lincoln, then use the ground from the 304, it would probably work if you bridge the switch leads between the lincoln and miller (dont know what the switch voltages are.. 24v??? any way Id try to make the miller hot all the time (dangerous) then have the lincoln control the wire speed and forget the bridging (could take out a control board).

Rick V
12-27-2006, 12:38 AM
Actually, it may be possible.

Lincoln Circuit
Firstly, I'm talking about the Lincoln SP-175T only (I don't know the circuit for the SP-175 Plus.)

In the SP-175T, 230 volt AC power goes through a transformer and comes out as about 21 volts AC, then through a rectifier bridge as about 20 volts full wave rectified DC then passes across a big capacitor and finally through a choke and to the welding output terminals - coming out as 20 volts DC. With this circuitry, there is some isolation in the Lincoln and you could hook your Miller 304 positive to the Lincoln positve and the Miller -ve to the Lincoln -ve... but you would have to be certain that you do not exceed to voltage rating of the capacitor or the back emf of the diodes in the rectified bank. But why bother????

The simplest approach is to use the Lincoln as a wire feeder - only.
Leave the light weight wire Lincoln gun trigger leads connected so that
when you pull the trigger on the Lincoln MIG gun the Lincoln wire feed will function as per normal. Then choose solution 1 or 2 below.

Solution 1
Disconnect the Lincoln +ve and -ve leads from the screw terminals. Attach your Miller +ve and -ve leads to the now free +ve and -ve leads ends of the Lincoln (Wrap them with insulating tape.) There is no danger to the Lincoln because you are not connected to the inner circuitry of the Lincoln - only to the cables leading to the Lincoln MIG gun.

There are a few important concerns with this. The gun is hot (powered by the Miller 304). Releasing the Lincoln MIG gun trigger will stop the wire feed but will no longer make the MIG gun 'cold'. So don't lay the wire feed nozzle on the work!

Other than that, the only danger is possibly exceeding the current carrying capacity of the hose/cable assembly leading from the Lincoln welder to the MIG gun. Lincoln calls this the Magnum 100L welding gun and cable assembly - and it is used on the SP-135 and SP-175. We know it is good for at least 130 amps at 30% duty cycle - the rating of the SP-175 welder... maybe even 175 amps for short periods of time. BUT, I notice that the bigger Lincoln wire feed welders with higher amperage ratings use different MIG welding guns and cable assemblies:
Power MIG 215: Magnum 250L gun and cable assembly
Power MIG 255C: Magnum 250L gun and cable assembly
Power MIG 350MP: Magnum 300 gun and cable assembly
So, I think, yes it can be done. The only limitation may be how much current can you put through the gun/cable assembly before it fries! The Miller XMT 304 is capable of 225 amps (on single phase) and 300 amps (on three phase).
My guess, 225 amps is not that much more that 175 amp max output of the Lincoln 175. It would probably handle it for short periods of time.

Solution 2
You could always run a separate cable from your Millar 304 to the Lincoln MIG gun - tape your cable along the outside of original cable assembly. That separate cable could use a copper collar to fit over and behind the threaded gas ports of the Lincoln MIG gun. You screw down the gas nozzle (insulated washer needed between nozzle and collar) to hold the collar in place.
Thus you would provide Miller power direct to the wire contact tip inside the Lincoln MIG gun.
If you are going to do this, you may as well run your ground cable/clamp from the Miller to the work piece and forget about running any current at all up the original Lincoln cables (gun cable or ground clamp). By the way, those Lincoln cables are marked as 8 gage wire - giving them a continuous duty rating of only 46 amps.

Conclusion
So the best approach (and least risk) - run your own power cables from the Miller 304 direct to the work (ground) and direct to the Lincoln MIG gun; use the Lincoln welder only as a wire feeder triggered by the Lincoln gun.

That's how I see it - then maybe you have an up powered 225 amp MIG.

Rick V

Rick V
12-27-2006, 09:22 AM
Hi again,

Just an additional note to Solution 2.
As in Solution 1, it would be best to disconnect the Lincoln +ve and -ve leads from the screw terminals inside the Lincoln cover and wrap electrical tape around the now loose and exposed terminal ends of the leads. This provides complete isolation of your Miller 304 power, input at the MIG gun, from the circuitry of the Lincoln.

Before I acquired my Lincoln SP-175T, I had an underpowered 70 amp Campbell Hausfeld MIG welder. If I had not been able to return it for refund, I would have gone a similar route but using car batteries in series to provide the higher voltages yielding higher welding currents.

Going through both the Lincoln and Miller catalogs, you can see the rise of welding current with voltage. (Remember, MIG welders are CV - Constant Voltage machines.)

MIG WELDERS - WIRE FEED
DC VOLTS.....DC AMPS MAX......TYPE
18...............90 20%...........X-FORMER-MIG WIRE FEED.....MILLERMATIC 135
18...............90 20%...........X-FORMER-MIG WIRE FEED.....SP-135P
18...............90 20%...........X-FORMER-MIG WIRE FEED.....MILLERMATIC DVI
19...............90 20%...........X-FORMER-MIG WIRE FEED.....SP-135T
19.5...........110 20%...........INVERTER-MIG WIRE FEED......MILLER PASSPORT
20..............130 30%..........X-FORMER-MIG WIRE FEED......SP-175T
20..............130 30%..........X-FORMER-MIG WIRE FEED......MILLERMATIC 175
21.5...........150 20%...........INVERTER-MIG WIRE FEED......MILLER PASSPORT
22..............215 30%..........X-FORMER-MIG WIRE FEED......POWER MIG 215
23..............190 40%..........X-FORMER-MIG WIRE FEED......POWER MIG 215
23..............150 40%..........X-FORMER-MIG WIRE FEED......MILLERMATIC DVI
24..............170 60%..........X-FORMER-MIG WIRE FEED......POWER MIG 215
24.5...........160 60%...........X-FORMER-MIG WIRE FEED.....MILLERMATIC 210
26..............250 40%..........X-FORMER-MIG WIRE FEED......POWER MIG 255C
28..............200 60%..........X-FORMER-MIG WIRE FEED......MILLERMATIC 251
28..............250 40%..........X-FORMER-MIG WIRE FEED......MILLERMATIC 251
32..............300 60%..........X-FORMER-MIG WIRE FEED.....POWER MIG 350MP
32..............300 60%..........X-FORMER-MIG WIRE FEED.....MILLERMATIC 350

So, 24 volts from two series 12 volt (normal voltage under a good load)batteries might deliver 170 amps. Three batteries in series for 36 volts could push out about 400 amps. The Miller XMT 304 on CV mode is showing a voltage range of 0 to 35 volts with a rated output of 225 amps at 29 volts 60% duty cycle (single phase input) - that's close to the values in the table. If your XMT 304 is three phase, then your rated output is 300 amps at 32 volts at 60% duty cycle - same as the table indicates.

So, you end up converting a Lincoln SP-175 into either a Power MIG 255C or Power MIG 350MP. However, it begs the question... if you are lucky enough to own a Miller XMT 304, why not just use the MIGRunner Bernard Q-400 MIG gun on your Miller?

Anyway, I hope that helps.

Rick V

elvergon
12-27-2006, 05:45 PM
Are you sure Rick?

Stick welders run constant amperage settings...

Mig machines run constant voltage settings...

don´t know if it is really posible....

Rick V
12-27-2006, 06:27 PM
Hi elvergon !

RE: Are you sure Rick?
Yes, 100%

RE:
Stick welders run constant amperage settings...
Mig machines run constant voltage settings...
don´t know if it is really posible....

FearcityINC said he had a Miller 304; I didn't know that machine so I looked at the 2006 Miller catalog. The only Miller model '304' is the Multiprocess XMT Series model 304 - using inverter technology. The machine can do MIG, Pulsed MIG (optional control), Stick, TIG, Pulsed TIG, Flux Core and Air Carbon Arc ! The catalog specifically states both CC = Constant Current (e.g. for Stick/TIG) at 5 to 400 amps and CV = Constant Voltage (e.g. for MIG, Flux Core) at 10 to 35 volts. So this is kind of the ultimate power supply - CC or CV with all kinds of goodies in CC mode - like Lift-Arc for TIG starting, Adaptive Hot Start for preventing rod sticking (Stick), etc. The whole thing weighs only 80 lbs!!

I looked again, but I didn't see one in my Christmas Stocking - ;)

Rick V

elvergon
12-27-2006, 09:08 PM
Oh well...if it is a multiproccess I agree 100% :D

Thanks for the answer =)

FearcityINC
12-28-2006, 09:06 PM
Ricky is correct.....cc, cv. thats why I was kind of wondering if it could be done.........I would buy a wirefeed gun for the miller, but it is like 3 to 500 smackers......but now that i think about it, I'm kind of kicking myself in the ***....I just spent 600 on the Lincoln :realmad: oh well what are ya gonna do.....

Doolittle
12-28-2006, 11:03 PM
I know car batteries have bunches of cranking amps, but could the constant high current draw be dangerous? (lets just say you stick a rod i.e. short circuit=KABOOM?)... Should probably use some sorta fuse (300 amp, hmmm).

I used to do maintenance on large batteries (~20-40 cell lead acid) and remember lifting a cover off and (accidently mind you) shorting it out and well Im still here, the cover slid off the contacts thank god, but it blew like 10 of the caps off the cells. Dont get me wrong, I think they are more than capable of doing welding duty, its the what ifs that worry me about such a setup. I have never actually seen a cell 'explode'. Ive seen em leak and I saw the caps blow off (maybe if those caps were on tighter, they might have burst).

Rick V
12-29-2006, 01:07 PM
Hey Doolittle - Good question.

I know car batteries have bunches of cranking amps, but could the constant high current draw be dangerous? (lets just say you stick a rod i.e. short circuit=KABOOM?)... Should probably use some sorta fuse (300 amp, hmmm)

I wasn't speaking about stick welding; the amp versus volt numbers that I gave were for MIG welders - CV.
Unlike stick welding, with MIG you don't have to worry about getting a rod stuck and drawing HUGH amps. MIG runs short-circuit most the time: short circuit melting the wire, creating an arc gap inputing heat, repeated ad -infinitum. The short circuit is no problem in MIG because the wire is so small - the amps remain low and constant.
If your interested in MIG welding using batteries, search out the postings by 'coachgeo', he was using 2 and then 3 deep cycle batteries to power his wire-feed welder. He had no problems... except for keeping his batteries charged but that was another issue. As I recall, he was running 36 volts and doing some pretty thick MIG welds in a single pass.

As for stick welding, the amp versus volt table looks like this.
STICK WELDERS
DC VOLTS..DC AMPS..MAX OCV....TYPE
22.4......60........48........INVERTER-STICK INVERTEC V160-S
22.8......70........90........INVERTER-STICK MAXSTAR 150S
23........70........67........INVERTER-STICK INVERTEC V100-S
23.2......80........48........INVERTER-STICK INVERTEC V160-S
23.5......85........67........INVERTER-STICK INVERTEC V100-S
24........90........70........INVERTER-STICK MAXSTAR 200 STR
24.......100........67........INVERTER-STICK INVERTEC V100-S
24.......100........90........INVERTER-STICK MAXSTAR 150S
25.......125........70........INVERTER-STICK MAXSTAR 200 STR
25.......125........73........X-FORMER STICK AC/DC 225/125
25.......150........80........X-FORMER STICK THUNDERBOLT XL CSA
25.2.....130........48........INVERTER-STICK INVERTEC V160-S
26.......150........90........INVERTER-STICK MAXSTAR 150S
26.......150........70........INVERTER-STICK MAXSTAR 200 STR
26.......150........77........INVERTER-STICK CTS 280
27.......175........79........X-FORMER STICK DIALARC 250 AC/DC
28.......200........77........INVERTER-STICK CTS 280
28.......200................INVERTER-STICK INVERTEC V275-S
29.......225........79........X-FORMER STICK DIALARC 250 AC/DC
30.......250........70........X-FORMER STICK IDEALARC 250
30.......250........72........X-FORMER STICK IDEALARC 250
30.......250................INVERTER-STICK INVERTEC V275-S
31.......275................INVERTER-STICK INVERTEC V275-S
31.2.....280........77........INVERTER-STICK CTS 280
32.......300........72........X-FORMER STICK GOLDSTAR 302
36.......400........67........X-FORMER STICK IDEALARC R3R-400
36.......400........75........X-FORMER STICK SRH-444
38.......450........72........X-FORMER STICK GOLDSTAR 452
40.......500........67........X-FORMER STICK IDEALARC R3R-500
44.......650........72........X-FORMER STICK GOLDSTAR 652

If you compare the early MIG table to this Stick table, you will see that MIG welders use lower voltages to produce higher currents (at least in the 18 to 24 volt range). This you might expect because you are short-circuit welding instead of arc-welding where the resistance of the arc drops the current.

Example 1: 20 volts of MIG yields 130 amps but 20 volts is too low to operate any stick welder I could find.

Example 2: 24 volts of MIG yields 170 amps while stick yields 90-100 amps.

With 26 volts and above, the amperages generated by MIG or stick get pretty close. So, if have 36 volts available that is about 400 amps with MIG or with stick.

Note: If you intend continuously using higher currents from batteries, the amp-hour rating of the battery should at least match your amperage draw.
e.g. drawing 100 amps (at 24 volts) continuously from a series connection of two 12 volt 100 ampere-hour batteries is fine.
However, if you want to draw 400 amps continuously, you would need more like twelve 12 volt 100 ampere-hour batteries!
e.g. 400 amps requires 36 volts, that means at least three 12 volt batteries connected in series. However, three 100 ampere-hour batteries in series is only a 36 volt 100 ampere-hour battery. To get 12 volts with a 400 ampere-hour rating, you need four 12 volt 100 ampere-hour batteries in parallel. Now you want 3 series connected parallel banks of 4 batteries = 12 batteries!
If you are not going to be welding continuously I suspect you could get by with 3 series connected parallel banks of two batteries = a total of 6 batteries. Fun eh?

If you short circuit with MIG, the current is still 400 amps max because short-circuit welding (melting 0.023 to 0.045 inch wire) is normal operation. However, if you short circuit a stick (stick a rod), this is not the normal operational mode of the welding process and the current could go way above 400 amps! Remember, here the rod (typically 3/32 to 1/4 inch) is much larger in diameter than MIG wire, so the short-circuit current in stick will be much larger. Hey, if a fella were running 1/4 inch rod at 400 amps and stuck a rod - whoa baby, there better be current limiting else .... armor plate around the battery bank!
So with stick, you are right - there better be a breaker or something to stop the current from soaring way above 400 amps! However, with MIG - this is not a problem.

Rick V

FearcityINC
12-30-2006, 03:01 PM
Would my Miller supply power to the gun, or would the Lincoln need to be powerd on too????

Doolittle
12-30-2006, 03:03 PM
Theyd both need power, The miller supplies power to the gun and the lincoln supplies power to the wire feed.

FearcityINC
12-30-2006, 03:15 PM
Ahhhh yes.....gotta make an extension cord!!!