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Benny
03-24-2004, 09:21 AM
This probably has been discussed many times before but here is goes again. What is the difference between the rods?

Lincoln AC 180

Thanks

malibu101
03-24-2004, 10:11 AM
Simply put, without getting into details, seeing you have an AC machine.
6010 - DC
6011 - AC
In other words, you don't want 6010 get 6011.

Benny
03-24-2004, 10:16 AM
thanks for your help

Brainfarth
03-24-2004, 04:16 PM
The what and why:
(1) Cellulose-sodium (EXX10). Electrodes of this type cellulosic material in the form of wood flour or reprocessed low alloy electrodes have up to 30 percent paper. The gas shield contains carbon dioxide and hydrogen, which are reducing agents. These gases tend to produce a digging arc that provides deep penetration. The weld deposit is somewhat rough, and the spatter is at a higher level than other electrodes. It does provide extremely good mechanical properties, particularly after aging. This is one of the earliest types of electrodes developed, and is widely used for cross country pipe lines using the downhill welding technique. It is normally used with direct current with the electrode positive (reverse polarity).

(2) Cellulose-potassium (EXX11). This electrode is very similar to the cellulose-sodium electrode, except more potassium is used than sodium. This provides ionization of the arc and makes the electrode suitable for welding with alternating current. The arc action, the penetration, and the weld results are very similar. In both E6010 and E6011 electrodes, small amounts of iron powder may be added. This assists in arc stabilization and will slightly increase the deposition rate.
This info was pulled from <a href="http://www.adtdl.army.mil/cgi-bin/atdl.dll/tc/9-237/Ch8.htm">HERE</a>

gnewby
03-24-2004, 09:36 PM
Benny, you might also try some 6013 and some 7014. I weld some with all 3 but like the looks of welds the other 2 rods make, far better than that of the 6011. I usually run the 6011 on rusty or metal I do not plan on cleaning well prior to welding.

Benny
03-25-2004, 12:43 PM
Ok guys I'm having a lot of trouble welding this stuff.

I picked up 3 different types of rods.

6013 I have no problems with whatsoever.
7018 Is ok but after the slag is gone I see lots of small holes. What causes this? I tried different amp setting and cant get rid of them.
6011 I cant weld with for nothing. Half the time I cant even start it, it just sticks. Once I get it going its all over the place. Lots of splatter everywhere.

Please help
Thanks

AC 180

Sberry
03-25-2004, 12:51 PM
Regular 7018 is a DC rod,, runs very poor on AC. The do make 7018 AC and they run very well.

Markopolo
03-25-2004, 03:12 PM
Benny.....A lot of people will lead you to believe that 6011 spatters a lot. Tell them to "stick it up their Doopa" !

6010 & 6011 both run beautifully IF you do it right.

There are actually 2 different 6010's...red-flux, and grey-flux.
The red dig's a little more...(and both need's to be run on D.C.+)

6011 is run on A.C. Personally, I think 6011 is a cream-puff to run.

With either rod...don't be tempted to "drag" the rod, (No rod should be dragged)....rather, hold a VERY STEADY short arc....and if you feel the need, a VERY small circular movement down the joint.

For 1/8" electrodes, I use between 70 and 90 amps.

KEEP PRACTICING !

:)

Markopolo
03-25-2004, 04:30 PM
ALSO . . . .when using 7018, make absolutly sure you hold a VERY close arc ! Long-arcing 7018 will guarantee porosity !

As sberry said: If you have a welder that is only capable of A.C. you need to use 7018AC.

AND.....(you may know this already)......7018 has a very fluid slag, so you need to pay close attention to the puddle, and keep the arc ahead of the slag !

Benny
03-25-2004, 06:05 PM
So what causes those small holes I get with the 7018?

Markopolo
03-25-2004, 06:20 PM
Could be a couple of things.......

#1...You're "long-arcing"...(keep a VERY close arc).
#2...The electrodes may have picked up a little moisture....(tell wife, or girlfriend to go shopping for a few hours....stick them in the oven, and bake them for an hour).
#3...The metal you're trying to weld is dirty...(The metal you weld with 7018 has to be ABSOULUTLY CLEAN !).

There may be other reasons, but these are just a few....

Benny
03-25-2004, 06:27 PM
Probably is #3. Before I take the slag off I think to myself what a beautiful weld, then the slag comes off and there are tiny holes.

About baking them in the oven. Should I be worried about poisonous vapors on my next steak that comes out of the oven?

Markopolo
03-25-2004, 06:42 PM
As long as you like to weld....do what I did: Build a little rack that will hold about 5 lbs. of stick. This rack does a couple of things....It keeps the rod off of the baking racks, thus, completely eliminating the posibility of having a "7018 pizza".
Put a little handle on it so you can get it out of the oven (with the help of an oven-mitt)...And, if there's any grease on the oven racks to begin with, this little rack will prevent the welding rod from picking up contamination !

If you have a hood over the stove, turn on the exhaust fan.
I don't think the smell can hurt you, but you may detect a slight odor.

7018 is a great rod.....IF IT IS USED CORRECTLY ! !

PS....The metal you are trying to weld MUST BE ABSOULUTLY CLEAN ! ! !

Brainfarth
03-26-2004, 06:22 AM
A junk cube fridge with a 100 watt bulb inside works great.

Sberry
03-26-2004, 11:50 AM
6010 is easier to operate on dirty steels but 7018 makes a better weld. There is so much more flux it cleans better. Its penetration is less and it mixes less while allowing the flux to carry the dirt off.

axehind
03-26-2004, 02:29 PM
How come 6011 is a AC rod? It says that you can run it on DC as well. I bought 10 pounds of it yesterday and tried a bead on DC. I cant say it's as pretty 7018 but I'm told 6011 isnt suppose to be.

axehind

Bolt
03-26-2004, 02:46 PM
6011 will run on both AC and DC
6010 is only run on DC

Give it time, and you can make a good looking bead with 6010/11, it's the rod I use on most things.

Markopolo
03-26-2004, 08:49 PM
Axehead...let me read to you.....(I quote from "Welding Principles & Practice" by Raymond Sacks.

"E6011: All position, Alternating current (Fast Freeze Type).
The operating characteristics, mechanical properties, and welding applications of the 6011 resemble those of the 6010, but the 6011 requires alternating current. Although it may also be used with direct current, reverse polarity, it loses many of it's beneficial characteristics with this polarity."

axehind
03-26-2004, 09:49 PM
Bolt,

I am going to try AC tomorrow with the 6011. When I asked for 6010 at the welding supply store they said it was a pipe rod and they only sell it in 50lb boxes. They said I probably want 6011 so I bought 10lbs worth. This is the second time I've been steered away from 6010 at a welding supply store. Strange....


Markopolo,

Thanks. I'll try AC tomorrow and let you know. I can tell you this, 6011 is much easier at restarting the arc than 7018. At least on DC it was and with the rods I have. Is there anything I should know about using AC? Does the amperage stay about the same?

axehind

Markopolo
03-26-2004, 10:05 PM
Axe....I generally use between 70 - 90 amps with 1/8" 6010 or 6011. 7018 you can stoke up a little more (I use around 120 amps d.c.+).

The package should say what the operating range is for a particular rod....they'll give you a range to stay in, and it's up to you to adjust to the high-end or low-end of that range according to the particular job you're doing and the thickness of metal.

As far as the 6010....The guy at the welding store probably orders it in #50 cans because the guys that use that kind of rod probably use a lot of it. You can order almost any electrode you desire online in packages more suited to the home shop.

Markopolo
03-26-2004, 10:29 PM
Axe....Just to belabor the point a little more.....There is no such thing as a "magical" setting for any particular electrode. Machines are different, rods are different, and so forth. A 6011 rod from one brand may run a little better set to the hot side of the range, and another brand may run a little better in the lower end of the recommended range. Set the machine in the middle of the range and run a bead or two.....watch the puddle....is it running the way you want ? Don't be afraid to "fine-tune" the heat a little up or down to get the rod burning the way you want.

And also, hard restarts on a 7018 is normal. The flux is so fluid, when you stop welding, the flux runs down and coats the tip of the rod. Just give it a firm tap on the metal to break the flux off the tip and it should restart easier.

DDA52
03-26-2004, 11:47 PM
. Although it may also be used with direct current, reverse polarity, it loses many of it's beneficial characteristics with this polarity." [/B][/QUOTE]

Markopolo
I've never really noticed any diff with 6011 on ac.( doesn't mean there isn't one ) Beads always looked the same etc. I prefer the stability of the dc arc. Hate ac ... mainly 'cause I get hit ALOT with ac.
I used Airco Pipecraft 6010 as my mainstay untill I was intro'd to Mr. 5P+. Bye bye pipecraft!
Anybody ever use Airco's ( now Lincoln's ) 6011C? I liked them a lot better than the Fleetweld 35's or Hobart 335A. They seemed more like a 6010 than a 6011. More stable, easier to controll, and beads looked a bit nicer. Checked the other day... can still get them here.
Axe
I'm surprised the store didn't have at least a 10lb can around for you! Esp. since they charge double for them. May need to find another store? If you get a chance, try some 6010's. You just might like them better. The diff's aren't that big.

axehind
03-31-2004, 04:05 AM
I tried out the 6011 on AC. There wasnt any difference that I could tell.

axehind

Oscar
11-24-2015, 02:31 PM
Axehead...let me read to you.....(I quote from "Welding Principles & Practice" by Raymond Sacks.

"E6011: All position, Alternating current (Fast Freeze Type).
The operating characteristics, mechanical properties, and welding applications of the 6011 resemble those of the 6010, but the 6011 requires alternating current. Although it may also be used with direct current, reverse polarity, it loses many of it's beneficial characteristics with this polarity."

Guys, I found this thread doing some research on SMAW 6010/6011 and have a question: Which "beneficial characteristics" would these be? Is the arc dig not as pronounced leading to slightly less penetration simply because it's on AC?

Also, generally speaking, all other things held constant, would the DC arc on a 6010 be "smoother" than the AC arc on a 6011?

Louie1961
11-24-2015, 05:15 PM
Did you really just revive an 11 year old post??

Oldendum
11-24-2015, 05:42 PM
Did you really just revive an 11 year old post??

It's a valid question. Don't slam someone because they are searching and using this as a point of reference.

If old threads aren't relevant, why not delete them after a couple weeks? Of course, threads regarding "What size wire/breaker do I need to hook up my welder that requires a 10 gauge wire and 30 Amp breaker?" should be deleted, because the folks asking never search. :mad:

Louie1961
11-24-2015, 05:52 PM
I don't disagree, and I try not to slam anyone, especially cool folks like Oscar. But maybe better to start a new post and link to this one? Lots can change in 11 years, and at first I was thinking we were spammed. old inactive threads probably should get locked automatically after a certain number of years of inactivity.

Oldendum
11-24-2015, 05:59 PM
...old inactive threads probably should get locked automatically after a certain number of years of inactivity.

I don't disagree, but my wife made me go out in the yard today to carry off a bunch of piles of leaves. And this year there are thousands of acorns - slippery little suckers.

Raul
11-24-2015, 07:35 PM
http://www.thefabricator.com/article/consumables/examining-the-finer-points-of-6010-6011-and-7018

Oscar
11-24-2015, 07:37 PM
Yup, I revived an old thread, lol. I wouldn't have revived just any old crappy thread, but this one seemed to have good, pertinent information. At least no one can tell me, "you should search before making a new thread" :). I will still keep looking for the information I want, hoping to find something on the technical side I can relate to. But in the mean-time, if anyone has the answer, I'm all ears; especially considering that most of the information I find is the same ol "6010 is for DC, 6011 is for AC". Maybe that is all that there is to it :confused:, but if there is more, would be great to know.


http://www.thefabricator.com/article/consumables/examining-the-finer-points-of-6010-6011-and-7018


Believe it or not, I had read that. But it still left me wanting to learn more.


......their similarities outweighed their differences.....

..but still doesn't say anything about their differences other than


....I have found, and think most welders will agree, that 6010 runs more smoothly. The slag chips off better than 6011, and this is one reason it is used more often than 6011 in root passes on pipes.

Is that all there is to it? Runs a bit smoother and slag is easier to remove with 6010 on DC?

Louie1961
11-24-2015, 07:47 PM
Does this help? http://www.lincolnelectric.com/en-us/support/welding-solutions/Pages/polarity-for-smaw.aspx

Louie1961
11-24-2015, 07:57 PM
if you look at ESAB's specs for both you will see there are some minor differences in metallurgy and tensile properties. But probably not enough to write home about:

http://www.esabna.com/us/en/products/index.cfm?fuseaction=home.product&productCode=1152&tab=2

http://www.esabna.com/us/en/products/index.cfm?fuseaction=home.product&productCode=1151&tab=2

Oscar
11-24-2015, 10:03 PM
I see. Thanks for the links. So everything seems to point to 6010 being smoother, but because of the DC arc. [asking myself] So if 6011 can also be ran on DCEP just like 6010, why does 6010 still exist if 6011 is so similar and can be ran on the same arc polarity? (<---rhetorical question, I'll just have to grab some tomorrow morning to see the difference for myself :)).

Bob
11-24-2015, 10:19 PM
You need to run a few pounds and you can see for your self. I find the 6010 is faster freezing and you can push the molten metal around and the 6011 you can't. That alone really when welding poor joints. I personally wouldn't use 6011's if you gave them to me. I would pass them on to some one else.

Oscar
11-25-2015, 11:17 PM
You need to run a few pounds and you can see for your self. I find the 6010 is faster freezing and you can push the molten metal around and the 6011 you can't. That alone really when welding poor joints. I personally wouldn't use 6011's if you gave them to me. I would pass them on to some one else.

Ran a few rods (not pounds yet) today. Not too much different than 6011s on DCRP.

Rods were Lincoln E6010 5P+, 3/32", 65A for the bottom pass, 70A for the top pass. DCRP.
Granted, I suck at SMAW, but that is neither here nor there. :laugh: 10lbs were $29.70 at the LWS. Figured couldn't hurt.

http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u235/musico79/welding/1125152001_zpsjtfxusnz.jpg

Louie1961
11-26-2015, 08:52 AM
Those aren't bad beads/joints. 6010/11 is probably nobodies first choice for a lap joint. I would only use it (for anything) in certain cases. Most of the time I picking up a 7018 first.

Oscar
11-26-2015, 03:09 PM
Those aren't bad beads/joints. 6010/11 is probably nobodies first choice for a lap joint. I would only use it (for anything) in certain cases. Most of the time I picking up a 7018 first.

Thanks for the input. I have some 7018AC Lincoln rods, but I just read the paper-inserts as per someone's suggestions, and yeap, they need to be re-dried first for optimum performance :mad: I don't have a 650°F oven. Lets hope my small junk convection oven can do a decent job of drying them.

Louie1961
11-26-2015, 07:34 PM
I have used rods right out of the hermetically sealed can and I have used the same 7018 rods after the can has been sitting out opened for months. Honestly I can't tell that much difference. I think when they say optimum performance they mean as far as low hydrogen characteristics. For practice and every day welding (i.e., non-critical stuff) I don't think it matters one bit if the rod has been properly dried or not. I will say this: don't bother messing with 7018 AC rods if you have the ability to run DC. Just go get some decent regular 7018 rod and go to town. The Lincoln Excalibur rods are arguably the best. But I i run the 7018-1 stuff from TSC and the performance delta is not enough to justify the price premium for the Lincoln rods. I can literally get the Hobart TSC rods for half of the cost of the Lincoln rods. For what I do they are just fine. And they don't come in a hermetically sealed container. They come in a cardboard box. I wouldn't worry about trying to dry/re-dry your rods.

Willie B
11-26-2015, 08:06 PM
Very clean metal with proper joint geometry laying horizontal; 7018 DC, 7018 AC, 6013. Dirty metal, rusty, or bad joint geometry laying horizontal; 6010 DC, or 6011 AC.

Oscar
11-26-2015, 08:09 PM
Yea, I just grabbed the 7018s from Lowes not knowing better at the time. Guess I have 5lbs of 7018AC rods to burn through at the moment. :)

Comparing prices, 50 lbs for $64 (http://www.homedepot.com/p/Lincoln-Electric-Excalibur-1-8-in-x-14-in-7018-A1-MR-Electrode-50-lb-ED032876/202705918) seems like a better deal than 25 lbs for $55 (http://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/hobart-7018-1-8-in-dia-stick-electrodes-25-lb?cm_vc=-10005), unless I'm missing something?

Willie B
11-26-2015, 08:10 PM
I have used rods right out of the hermetically sealed can and I have used the same 7018 rods after the can has been sitting out opened for months. Honestly I can't tell that much difference. I think when they say optimum performance they mean as far as low hydrogen characteristics. For practice and every day welding (i.e., non-critical stuff) I don't think it matters one bit if the rod has been properly dried or not. I will say this: don't bother messing with 7018 AC rods if you have the ability to run DC. Just go get some decent regular 7018 rod and go to town. The Lincoln Excalibur rods are arguably the best. But I i run the 7018-1 stuff from TSC and the performance delta is not enough to justify the price premium for the Lincoln rods. I can literally get the Hobart TSC rods for half of the cost of the Lincoln rods. For what I do they are just fine. And they don't come in a hermetically sealed container. They come in a cardboard box. I wouldn't worry about trying to dry/re-dry your rods.

I'm doing an outdoor project with 6010, a couple rods got left out and got rained on. Curiosity got to me, so I tried one. At first it was spattery, tended to stick. By half rod it was running as well as new.

Louie1961
11-26-2015, 10:48 PM
Comparing prices, 50 lbs for $64 seems like a better deal than 25 lbs for $55, unless I'm missing something?

when I click on your first link the price is $148 for 50 lbs. The second one is $55 for 25 lbs

Oscar
11-26-2015, 10:51 PM
when I click on your first link the price is $148 for 50 lbs. The second one is $55 for 25 lbs

That's werid. I cliked it myself from my post, and I get this:

http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u235/musico79/welding/lincoln7018_zps9ztdtyfu.png




Should I jump and buy it at that price??? hope they don't find out!

Louie1961
11-27-2015, 12:32 AM
Yes!!

Oldendum
11-27-2015, 09:59 AM
Looks like you can get the 7018 for that price if you select Laredo, TX as your store. 50 pounds of 6010 5P Plus is $68. SKU # 270730. I'd buy on-line and do in-store pickup. Looks like they have the 7018 available.

I'm tempted to get some shipped to home, but they'd probably bust off all the flux.

Oscar
11-27-2015, 03:37 PM
Yup, here at the store. Prices are correct as it shows in my online shopping cart.

http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u235/musico79/welding/1127151304_zps1khivuyp.jpg (http://s169.photobucket.com/user/musico79/media/welding/1127151304_zps1khivuyp.jpg.html)


http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u235/musico79/welding/1127151304a_zpsckhgupun.jpg (http://s169.photobucket.com/user/musico79/media/welding/1127151304a_zpsckhgupun.jpg.html)



http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u235/musico79/welding/1127151304b_zpsvfawutuv.jpg (http://s169.photobucket.com/user/musico79/media/welding/1127151304b_zpsvfawutuv.jpg.html)


http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u235/musico79/welding/1127151304c_zpsvsqhispa.jpg (http://s169.photobucket.com/user/musico79/media/welding/1127151304c_zpsvsqhispa.jpg.html)


http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u235/musico79/welding/1127151412_zpsaqwscgzm.jpg (http://s169.photobucket.com/user/musico79/media/welding/1127151412_zpsaqwscgzm.jpg.html)



Cans look a little beat up, so if anything took too much damage I'll return to store. Any major differences between 5P+ and 6P+?

Oscar
11-30-2015, 09:37 PM
Any major differences between 5P+ and 6P+?

Anyone? I noticed on the Lincoln website it states that the 5P+ (http://www.lincolnelectric.com/assets/global/Products/Consumable_StickElectrodes-MildandLowAlloySteels-Fleetweld-Fleetweld5P{plus}/c21013.pdf) works for moderate surface contaminants, whereas the 6P+ (http://www.lincolnelectric.com/assets/global/Products/Consumable_PipelinerConsumables-Pipeliner-Pipeliner6P{plus}/c11006.pdf) does not. But then the 5P+ position welding info (http://www.lincolnelectric.com/assets/global/Products/ConsumableEU_StickElectrodes-Fleetweld-Fleetweld5PPlus/FLEETWELD5P-eng.pdf) only lists 5G, and the 6P+ position welding info (http://www.lincolnelectric.com/assets/global/Products/Consumable_PipelinerConsumables-Pipeliner-Pipeliner6P{plus}/pipeliner6p-eng.pdf) lists it as pretty much all-position.

Any thoughts anyone? I bought the 6P+, but I can return it if it has some disadvantage towards general welding (not specialized pipe welding).

Steveoo
12-01-2015, 02:29 PM
Wow this thread is old.
In a word(s), mgnetic arc blow.
One of the benefits of 6011 that you loose running 6011 on dc is the fact that you are running it on dc. Ac resists magnetic arc blow. Dc does not.
This sometimes is a big deal. Most of the time it is not as magnetic arc blow problems tend to be fairly isolated. The deal is when it is a problem ac works like a charm.
Just another tool for the tool kit.