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Noa'zarc
02-12-2007, 02:32 AM
Ok so my house has been running fine,electrically, for decades,then suddenly last night at 5am, 70% of the breaker panel is completely goofy.Some breakers work like normal,some are dead..i really don't know the trick for testing the breakers,all i did was put on a voltage tester and check for continuity,all work.Hot water elements aren't fried(happened before) but still no 220 power there or for the stove,though dryer works.Power company checked to make sure it wasn't any problems on the pole/transformer/meter area, so it is in the house for sure..now here i am,a humbled clueless homosapien asking the other cave dwellers for some guidance on using their more effective tools:waving:

MJDamiani
02-12-2007, 03:35 AM
I do not know your capability, or how your power is run in Canada, so I hesitate to give advice. Get a friend or call an licensed electrician to look for voltage between your 2 hot wires. Then have them check for voltage between each hot wire and the ground / neutral wire. You may have a bad main breaker or main fuse, or water may have entered the panel through the SE (service entrance) cable eroding the connection.

Your dryer may appear to be running OK, but the motor, blower, lights and controls run off 120 volts and the heating element runs off the 240 volt side.

Please make it clear that I am not giving you electrical advise, that could get you killed. I am advising you to get someone that has the proper training to check this potentially dangerous situation out.

Noa'zarc
02-12-2007, 04:11 AM
Alright, MJDamiani it is clear,only advise,still appreciate your involvment on a good process of elimination to look into..would a "bad main breaker" mess with everything like this though?usually when a breker goes only dedicated paths to the outlets are disrupted, in this case things not even on the circuit have been invloved..i bet it is such a simple fix'um that an electrician would privately have a good laugh while writting up his/her bill.

MJDamiani
02-12-2007, 04:52 AM
I don't want to cost you cash, I just don't want you to get hurt by my long distance advice.

Do you have a main breaker or fuses?

Is there 240 (approx. voltage) volts between the 2 hot wires ?

Is there 120 Volts between each hot wire and the grounded (neutral) wire?

Get back to me with these answers and we can proceed.

Mike

awright
02-12-2007, 05:36 AM
WARNING! I am not an electrician.

If your wiring conventions are the same as in the U.S., it sounds like one of the poles of your main breaker has opened or failed. This should not normally happen because the two poles of the main breaker should be ganged together forcing them both to be in the same state, on or off. If the link is present ganging the two handles of the main breaker and the two handles are in the same position, one of the breakers of the pair must have failed internally, i.e., opened without the handle tripping.

In a typical U.S. main panel, power comes in on two 115 volt conductors and a neutral/ground conductor. For 230 volt loads (same as "220", "230", "240" volts), power is supplied by both 115 volt lines controlled by a linked pair of breakers. Since the two conductors are out of phase, the differential voltage is 230 volts AC. Theganging link, which is a visible pin or bracket connecting the handles of the two breakers, forces the second pole to open if one pole opens, thus avoiding having the load electrically hot even though it is apparently dead.

115 volt circuits are supplied with a single breaker, not ganged to its neighbor except in rare, special circumstances. Some of the 115 volt breakers are supplied from one of the incoming conductors to the neutral and the rest of the breakers are supplied from the other incoming 115 volt conductor. The distribution of power to the breakers is normally handled by the manner in which the blades in the panel are arranged. Power from any particular incoming line is distributed to alternate full width (1") breaker slots down each side of the double-width panel. Therefore, if one pole of the main breaker is open for whatever reason, half the panel slots will be dead and they will be in alternating sequence, on-off-on-off, etc., down each side. Is this the pattern of failure you are seeing? Bear in mind that if you have thin, 1/2inch thick breakers, two are on one blade so the pattern will be on-on-off-off-on-on, etc.

Since the main breakers should be linked or ganged together, forcing both to be off if one is off, the failure you describe is unusual and may indicate a defective breaker or some other serious failure of your system. Any time you have an abnormal failure like this that goes beyond the normal operation of the breakers you should have a professional look over the system to find out why. If all the wiring is OK and the guts of the panel are OK, you may be able to fix the problem by simply replacing the main breaker with a new one. You must do this VERY CAREFULLY because the blades that you will be putting the new breaker on are hot and cannot be turned off without disconnecting wires - a task ONLY for a professional.

Before replacing the main breaker, use your voltage tester to determine if one of the two main blade assemblies in the panel is dead and look at the main breaker to see of one handle is off and one on. If you take the front panel off the breakers, and if the panel is not full, you will be able to measure from each blade assembly to the neutral bus (the metal bar that all the white wires are connected to) and you will be able to see how the blade assembly distributes the power to alternate breakers. If one blade assembly is dead and one is hot, either the link ganging the two main breakers is missing and should be restored or one of the main breakers has failed internally. A new dual main breaker will have linked handles and should solve the problem.

If you don't clearly understand the discussion above and what you are seeing inside the panel, I recommend calling in a professional.

Good luck.

awright

Noa'zarc
02-12-2007, 06:15 AM
Alright Awright,thats alot of awsome-ness! i know those blades will always be hot.What i do is make sure i have insulated screwdriver, then i magnetize the end of the screwdriver so none of my appendages have to be sacrificed.
I am going to post a elementary drawing of what this picture looks like.Also this house was built in the earlier 60's, if thats of any value.

Noa'zarc
02-12-2007, 07:07 AM
I had to resize this rather horrible drawing,so i hope the ink shows up ok.

So are A & B the "HOT" wires?and more importantly,is this where it should read 220v?

--the third wire coming in from the top of the house is a thick cable,with no insulating on it.

David R
02-12-2007, 07:32 AM
A and white should read 110 to 120, B and white the same. A and B should read 220 across both. If they do, the trouble is in the panel. Don't mess with it hot!
David

Noa'zarc
02-12-2007, 07:48 AM
A and white should read 110 to 120, B and white the same. A and B should read 220 across both. If they do, the trouble is in the panel. Don't mess with it hot!
David

A and B do NOT read any voltages. But when touched individually to the whites both A & B DO read 120v. Hope this is a start for you great OB1's!

Noa'zarc
02-12-2007, 07:56 AM
On the hot water elements when i test for voltage by touching the tester to the two connections it doesn't read anything, yet when i touch one connection and touch the metal base of the element, it shows voltage,but only at 120v..something seems to be messing with the whole 220v system.

Sober_Pollock
02-12-2007, 10:42 AM
O.K. I may see something here.....

Let's Be absolutely sure about what you got when you tested it.

When you tested, acording to your drawing above:

Testing A to C, you got 120 Volts..........(This should be 120V)

Testing B to C, you got 120 Volts..........(This should be 120V)

Testing A to B, you got nothing.............(This should be 220V)

Is this what you got?

Sandy
02-12-2007, 11:41 AM
Don't forget to measure oin the buss side sooner or later. A to C = 120v. Does "A" buss to C = 120 volts, and so-on.

MoonRise
02-12-2007, 12:33 PM
Like others have said,

#1 - Be CAREFUL!
#2 - This is not advice, I am not an electrician, you are on your own, blah-blah-blah

Now on to the suggestions.

Coming into a typical US or Canadian house you should have two black wires and a bare copper or aluminum wire. The black wires are your A and B labeled wires in your diagram and the bare wire is the C in your diagram.

Measuring the voltage from A to C you should get 110-120V AC. Measuring from B to C should get you the same 110-120V AC. Measuring from A to B should get 220-240V AC.

However, you measured A-C = 120V (good), B-C = 120V (good), and A-C = 0 (not good).

If those are your measurements, then call the power company and tell them that you don't have proper voltage coming into the house. The problem is that they aren't sending you both legs of the power, but only the same leg on the two black wires. With that incoming power, all your 120V circuits should work OK but none of the 220-240V circuits will work properly or at all (it depends).

If those are your voltage measurements (A-C=120, B-C=120, A-B=0), then it is not anything wrong on your side. It is 100% the power company's problem. Call them and tell them to come out and fix it.

Sober_Pollock
02-12-2007, 12:56 PM
First, DO NOT perform any of these tests or work on this breaker box unless you are qualified to do so Safely !


.....The problem is that they aren't sending you both legs of the power, but only the same leg on the two black wires......

The power company is not necessarily sending the same on both hot wires.....

As I said, we need to confirm what he measured.....

Then, we need to know weather he took the measurement with all of the breakers on or off.....

The reason he may be measuring 120v to neutral on both the hot wires could be that the line coming in is dead (power company sending nothing) and he is reading 120v that is being "back-fed" through some 220v circuits. (This would happen if all the breakers are on while testing)

We NEED to know for sure if that is what he measured, and was the measurement done with all the breakers on or off.....

If they were on, the test needs to be repeated with all of the breakers off.....

With all the breakers off Except the main breaker, test the voltage from A to C, from B to C, and from A to B on BOTH sides of the main breaker.

MoonRise
02-12-2007, 01:34 PM
Yup, safety first!

If you don't know what you are doing, or are past your 'comfort-competancy' zone, have someone else check it out for your. The power company or electrician.

At this point with the measurements he has given us so far, it's looking like it is the power company's problem. Either they are sending the same phase in on both hot wires OR they completely lost one phase and it is dead.

Lost a phase incoming to the house once. Woke up one morning and wife tells me that the bathroom light isn't working. Yup, it wasn't working. Neither were a bunch of other lights scattered thoughout the house. Thought maybe a GFCI had tripped, nope they all were in the 'run' position. Checked the breaker panel, all the breakers were in the 'run' position. Scratch head for a while, mutter a bit, go and get a multimeter and a screwdriver to remove the breaker panel cover. Mutter some more, have cover off, start checking the juice from the 'bad' breakers. Nothing. Check the breaker next to it, it has normal 120V. Check another breaker, nothing. Next one, 120V. Mutter and scratch head a bit more. Checked the two incoming hot legs and only get 120V. The light bulb in my head finally lights up. I've lost a complete leg/phase! Call the power company and try to make my way through phone-prompt hell, I think I finally hit some combination that got a real person to answer. Spent 5 minutes or so telling them that I lost an incoming leg of power, they didn't seem to grasp the concept. But eventually said they would dispatch a tech. Tech shows up in an hour or so, pulls the meter block out and puts his multimeter onto the two contacts and says "Yup, you lost an incoming leg".

He then checked the transformer, OK there, must be a bad splice in the underground run to the house. He had a special jumper-block that replaced the meter and basically just ran power from the one good incoming leg at the meter socket into both hots into the panel. Everything in the house then had 120V power, but no 240V. Was OK with that, didn't need any 240V things at that time of year. Power company eventually came out with a crew and dug up things and replaced the bad splice underground and put a new meter back into the meter socket.

Sober_Pollock
02-12-2007, 03:05 PM
MoonRise:

Yeah, as a rule the two incoming legs are distributed to every-other breaker.

The danger in all of this is..... (And I almost hesitate to open this can of worms)

If you loose one leg coming in.....AND.....you have a 240 Volt load of some kind across the two hots (such as a hot water heater element).....you end up with 120 volts coming in one leg.....through the hot water heater element.....and on to all of 120 volt circuits on the dead leg.

You could end up with something like your refrigerator trying to run on the power it is able to pull through that hot water heater element.

(A real good way to end up needing a new refrigerator!)

awright
02-12-2007, 03:37 PM
Before we blame the power company, notice that some things are missing in Arcangel's diagram. There is no main cutoff switch or meter shown. Where are they?

You will never find the incoming lines going directly from the power pole to the breaker blades in the panel without a meter (unless they are giving the power away for free) and without a main cutoff of some type - normally a dual breaker of 60 (old), 100, or more amps. They must be remote from the main panel, since they are not depicted in the sketch.

Arcangel, trace (visually) the lines from the power pole to your main panel. Look for the meter on the side of the house where it has to be for the meter reader. The main cutoff may be there also, since it is also supposed to be accessible from outside of the house for emergency access. Where, inside or outside of your house, is your main panel? The problem can be somewhere between the meter lugs and your main panel lugs. I believe that the power company is responsible for the lines only up to the meter. After the meter, it's your responsibility.

Turn off ALL your breakers and measure the voltage across the two power lines at the closest location to the meter that you can access safely. That will probably be at the main breaker input lugs. Then measure across the output lugs of the main breaker. You should see 230 volts +/- 10 volts at both locations. If you don't see 230 volts at the input lugs, it is probably the power company's problem, which includes the meter. If you see a difference between the incoming lugs and the output lugs, the breaker is defective.

awright

Noa'zarc
02-12-2007, 05:01 PM
OK guys'ngals this will be a long..highly on a thank-you note though!

Sober_pollack:Your are 100% correct on post#11 questions! as for your question on my initial post YES my power was on---ok just measure with it off and--I'll go shut everything off after i answer all these question and i need pwr to this computer.

Sandy: performed with power on A-C=120v,B-C=120v, A-B= nada!

Moonrise: your story sounds so much as my current nightmare,missing hot water already!The power company "said" all their systems are just fine,and i watched him open that main panel breaker on the pwr pole and check it making me believe the fault is on my end.

Awright: The main cut off switch/main breaker is on the power pole away from the house about 200ft(what the pwr comp checked)My only initial spot to test the hot wires is where it comes into the house at those legs i drew.Unless i unwisely start poking holes into the wires coming into the house this i think is my closest spot to check for 220v.Thing about my main breaker at the pole is the power company puts those "tags" on them so i become rather crimminal should i be a dafty and cut it off,to gain access.

Thanks all.i'll go shut off the main breaker at the pole now and go see if it reads 220v at the house entry panel box leggy thingy.

Noa'zarc
02-12-2007, 05:24 PM
Ok finally..with all power clicked 'off', there's abosolutely NO power whatsoever at my main entry into the house's panel breaker box..but..i have always thought that switch on the pole 200ft from the house,shut everything off?

awright
02-12-2007, 05:30 PM
Whoa! Turning off the main breaker and measuring voltage at your panel won't tell you anything. You will have disconnected from all the incoming power.

Leave the main breaker at the pole on, turn off ALL your breakers in your main panel, and measure voltage at the incoming lugs. This will eliminate the sneak path described by others by which the probably dead line coming in to your panel is reverse energised via your various 230 volt appliances like the water heater (if electric).

If you measure 115 volts, 0 volts, 0 volts for the three possible combinations you know that you have a dead incoming line TO THE PANEL. You still don't know if it is before or after your main breaker except that the power company told you THEY were OK. Your main breaker should be downstream of the meter and should not be sealed by the power company because that is YOUR breaker. Their concern is that you don't tamper with the METER. not the main breaker. I would expect you to be able to measure the output at your main breaker without violating any rules or breaking any seals.

If you don't see 230 volts on the main breaker output but do see it on the lines coming to the main breaker from the meter, your main breaker needs replacing CAREFULLY. Be aware that standing on wet soil without insulated boots and lineman's rubber gloves is the worst situation for safety if your finger slips to contact a hot terminal.

awright

Noa'zarc
02-12-2007, 05:42 PM
I do appreciate your safety concern,Awight,i do however have the hands of a steady underpaid surgeon.ok i'll redo the shut down thing again to do it the way you layed it out.

Sober_Pollock
02-12-2007, 05:58 PM
With all the breakers off Except the main breaker, test the voltage from A to C, from B to C, and from A to B on BOTH sides of the main breaker.

Can you do it this way?

Noa'zarc
02-12-2007, 06:01 PM
Here's some bizzaredy after checking with ALL breakers "off":

A - B = 40volts(approx)

A- C = 15volts(approx)

B -C = 120volts

all these readings did make me mutter a few odd nouns,verbs,just like moonrise!

Noa'zarc
02-12-2007, 06:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sober_Pollock
With all the breakers off Except the main breaker, test the voltage from A to C, from B to C, and from A to B on BOTH sides of the main breaker.

Can you do it this way?
================================================== ========

This term "main-breaker has me confused a tinnsy..from following the wires from the power pole down to the main switch that turns OFF/ON all power from the power company to my panel box there's NO other switching mechanism..the only way to investigate that main breaker is to break that precious power companys " Tag-seal "..but i don't want those silver bracelets cops carry around nowadays!

Sober_Pollock
02-12-2007, 06:37 PM
This term "main-breaker has me confused a tinnsy..from following the wires from the power pole down to the main switch that turns OFF/ON all power from the power company to my panel box there's NO other switching mechanism..the only way to investigate that main breaker is to break that precious power company's " Tag-seal "..but i don't want those silver bracelets cops carry around nowadays!

I would say "A" is dead somewhere "Upstream" from where you tested it.

Now as for the main breaker arrangement.....

What you are describing is baffling me a little.....

If I'm getting this right.....

You have a line coming overhead to a "power pole away from the house about 200ft(what the pwr comp checked)".....

And this power pole has a switch (Breaker or Disconnect or something of that nature) on it.....This switch is the last thing between you and the power company, and is the only way you would be able to kill all the power to the house.....And it has their seal on it meaning they own it.....

Am I describing this about right?

If that is where the "Power company guy" tested it and said there is power there.....

Then the problem must be between that point and where you made your tests.

Is the line overhead or underground from that pole to the house?

(I'm betting it's underground and you guys are experienceing a really, really cold spell)

MJDamiani
02-12-2007, 06:43 PM
Here's some bizzaredy after checking with ALL breakers "off":

A - B = 40volts(approx)

A- C = 15volts(approx)

B -C = 120volts

all these readings did make me mutter a few odd nouns,verbs,just like moonrise!
Using your diagram; A=leg #1 should supply 120 volts
B= leg #2 should supply 120 volts
C= Neutral /grounded wire
If you are getting 120 volts between B&C that indicates that A (leg #1) is dead
and B (leg #2) is hot.
The reason that you were getting 120 volts on both legs before, when the breakers were on is that you were feeding leg # 2 back to the panel through one of the circuits with a double (2 pole) breaker. There is still something missing in this equation.
The National Electrical Code, NFPA 70 International Electrical Code states that a method of circuit protection must be present after the meter and as close as possible. Follow your SEU cable or SER cable from the panel to the outside of your home and look for this disconnect (fuses or breaker) it may be part of your meter housing. Please, If you don't know what it is, don't touch it!

Noa'zarc
02-12-2007, 07:09 PM
OK Good guys..me thinks something might have been found fishy..in between the power companies pole and my house is another skinny pole,acting as a continued wire holder with the outside yard light on it.I just dicovered that this skinny pole has rotted and broken loose. Could it be there's a connection knocked out from it,as it interconnects with the yard light?..if so,hmm..scratch scratch...now to find a way up a rotted post. :)

MoonRise
02-12-2007, 07:17 PM
IIRC, some older circuit breaker panels had the 'main' breakers stuffed into one of the two columns with all the rest of the normal breakers. At a quick glance, the panel looked like it had no main breakers. A bit tricky, you had to look for the small markings on the breakers to find the 'main' breakers among all the 'normal' breakers.

Usually, the power company is responsible for everything up to the meter, after the meter it is the owner's responsibility.

Wherever the meter is, there should be a means of turning off the electricity just after the meter. If you turn off that switch/breaker/disconnect, then everything electrically downstream -should- have 0 volts on it. At that switch/breaker/disconnect, you should measure 220-240V.

Let's see if we have the picture right. The power company sends the power to the electric meter which is out on a pole 200 feet away from your house/barn/building, there is an electrical box/panel of some sort on that pole with a switch/breaker/disconnect, then wire runs from there to the house/barn/building 200 feet away where a circuit breaker panel is, and you are taking your voltage measurements at the panel inside the house/barn/building?

MoonRise
02-12-2007, 07:28 PM
Unless there is an outside breaker panel on that first pole by the electric meter, the light should be fed from your main breaker panel and then back out to the light.

But if the main breaker panel is outside out by the meter, it might have a main breaker, a breaker feeding into the house/barn/building, and another breaker feeding the outside light.

Or the wiring could be a total hodge-podge and a real mess and a safety hazard.

If the wiring is on poles, then it's not buried. At least you can see and visually follow the wires. Follow the wires from the electric meter to anything and everything from there to the breaker panel inside your house/barn/building. Check for and note any and all boxes or panels or electrical devices (lights, transformers, pumps, gate openers, etc) from the meter to the house.

Note: If you don't know what you are doing, electricity can KILL you. Don't just grab or poke some wires.

Noa'zarc
02-12-2007, 07:32 PM
Let's see if we have the picture right. The power company sends the power to the electric meter which is out on a pole 200 feet away from your house/barn/building, there is an electrical box/panel of some sort on that pole with a switch/breaker/disconnect, then wire runs from there to the house/barn/building 200 feet away where a circuit breaker panel is, and you are taking your voltage measurements at the panel inside the house/barn/building?
================================================== =======
A big Y-U-P!

Sober_Pollock
02-12-2007, 08:10 PM
Well.....

If power company dude says you have power leaving the pole with the meter on it 200 feet from the house.....

And you don't have it on one of the legs at the house.....

Then the problem is in that line between the house and the pole.....

At least it's overhead and not buried, that will make the repair that much easier.

Call A Professional!!

Problems in overhead lines are absolutely out of the realm of a home-owner or do-it-your-selfer. These lines can be spliced and repaired, but only by someone with the required skills and equipment. (It takes special tools and parts to do this)

o.c.d.
02-12-2007, 09:54 PM
Arcangel,

Sounds like you have found the problem area that being one leg is open. Now just a matter of finding where it's open. Be careful outside, the ground especially wet and the copper grounding wire that should be running down the pole is super dangerous (working on a floor is also but nothing like a good wet ground/mud/grass or copper ground on you) if you get on it and inadvertently touch one L1/L2, even worse a ground loop.

I guess I'm just saying be careful.

tresi
02-12-2007, 10:26 PM
One of the most common causes of an open leg is a lug being loose and burning up in the meter box. disconnect switch or main breaker. This is a condition that can set a house on fire. If you haven't found the problem yet get an electrician out there right now. If someone from the power company was out there and knew of your problem I'm surprized that he didn't shut you off and pull your meter until the problem is corrected

awright
02-13-2007, 03:13 AM
There's obvioulsy more than enough confusion to go around to all of us, probably because none of us know what your configuration is. Can you post a photo of the hardware on the pole showing the meter and the breaker or switch and showing where the wires go from the braker/switch? (There I go again, assuming that I know what is on the pole.) A photo of your main panel might help, also. HOWEVER:

If the power is OK at the meter but not at your main panel and you cannot access the main breaker out on the pole due to the power company's seal and you are obviously not in a position to mess with the wires then there is nothing you can do to correct the situation yourself so at this point you might as well call in an electrician.

awright

MJDamiani
02-13-2007, 06:00 AM
I sent a PM to Arcangel to see if he is OK...NO response as of yet 0459hrs.GMT-5.


Mike

caosesvida
02-13-2007, 08:41 AM
just skimming through this you need an electrician, You may need a new main, which you have to get the power company involved for that if you want to do it safely, sounds like burnt contacts in the main breaker, or bad connections on the "bugs" that connect the wires up on the pole. Sometimes you just have to bite the bullet, at the very least get an electrician to look at it at your house and pay him for his advice, if you don't want him to fix it.

Noa'zarc
02-13-2007, 03:18 PM
Sorry for the delay good people!

My goal is to get up on the skinny pole,YES after the power is long shut off at the power company's pole meter thing! I hoping it is one of those lug nut joiner connectors..and if not.. then the electrician will be allowed to finally have his way with me and my closely guarded funds :)

KNOW, All invovled help has exceeded my expectations !

awright
02-13-2007, 09:03 PM
Arcangel, you make us nervous using terminology like, "...after the power is long shut off at the power company's pole meter thing!" Imagine your patient under a drape on your operating table hearing you say, "...we're going to take out that little red thingy, right?" That anxiety is the genesis of all the cautionary statements and urgings to bring in an electrician from various posters to this thread.

Please give us some confidence that you understand what we are advising by trying to use somewhat accurate terminology like, "...after I turn off the main breaker."

awright

billie_
02-13-2007, 09:40 PM
broken neutral?...you know the wire everyone thinks just holds the other two up

Noa'zarc
02-13-2007, 09:55 PM
Please give us some confidence that you understand what we are advising by trying to use somewhat accurate terminology like, "...after I turn off the main breaker."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
HA!
ok so here's what i done today: shut the main breaker thingy off, went up that thingy with the steps on it to get on top of the house thingy,took out my work tool thingy's,unwrapped the electrical tape covering one of the connectors looked good but the nutjoiner was only finger tight so tighted, unwrapped the next one.. PRESTO!..it was cleanly broken off & not in the nut connector thingy!

ssSEE i stayed alive,awight,using "unterminolgy" blabble..i bet $1000 Noah did'nt know a 9/16" from a 5/8" wrench,still he lived on that there thingy,everyone else did the parish thingy..ok i'm hungary i got to get off this thingy an eat :)

Arcangel

o.c.d.
02-14-2007, 12:06 AM
Not to mention you saved a but load of money! Good work. As allways be careful with those live wires.

o.c.d.

MJDamiani
02-14-2007, 01:41 AM
Considering that you are so persistent, and are hell bent on fixing this yourself. Make the connection correctly. Coat the wires with Penetrox or Oxyban or whatever anti-oxidant compounds that you have up there. This is especially important if you are connecting copper and/or aluminum wires together. You may even want to use a new connector thingy (Burndy).
Good luck !

Mike

Noa'zarc
02-14-2007, 05:27 PM
hee.. i got Mike talking in my thingy 'tongues',i will put a new burndy on it as a result of your conversion to the 'thingy' lingo.

Weldordie
02-15-2007, 01:44 AM
hee.. i got Mike talking in my thingy 'tongues',i will put a new burndy on it as a result of your conversion to the 'thingy' lingo.

Arcangel,

Nice work on the troubleshoot!

Strongly suggest you have the power company disconnect the power, prior to your attempting to work on the roof, fixing the problem... OR, you might become an arc angel.

Weldordie

sail2u
02-15-2007, 03:16 AM
Good job-- We have underground lines and, after a wet cold November in So. AZ, the lights on various circuits dimmed and some outlets didn't work-- Splice on one leg in the underground line was leaking to ground which the power company diagnosed immediately when told the symptoms. They dug up the front yard within a foot of the splice and resealed it. Happened again about the same time of year about 7 years later, and they ran a new straight line from the x-former across the street to eliminate the splice. The linemen are not happy with the underground lines not in conduit.

MJDamiani
02-15-2007, 05:49 AM
Good job-- We have underground lines and, after a wet cold November in So. AZ, the lights on various circuits dimmed and some outlets didn't work-- Splice on one leg in the underground line was leaking to ground which the power company diagnosed immediately when told the symptoms. They dug up the front yard within a foot of the splice and resealed it. Happened again about the same time of year about 7 years later, and they ran a new straight line from the x-former across the street to eliminate the splice. The linemen are not happy with the underground lines not in conduit.

I have been in SO.AZ, what is cold there? I don't even consider it cold up here in Rhode Island it is only 15 degrees here. ArcAngel may know cold I bet is at least below zero up there. Remember heat and cold is relevant, and it depends upon what you are accustomed to.

sail2u
02-16-2007, 04:36 AM
"I have been in SO.AZ, what is cold there?"

"cold" in Phx in Nov is 40's, but the ground (and us) bakes at > 100 F. several months and then 90's, so it's a fair temperature differential for expansion and contraction of copper. -- plus the moisture -- and the buried wire was down only 3 feet, if that.

After 33 yrs here, despite from Milwaukee, I've lost my cold tolerance-- The weekend I visited Zapster it was -2 F in Westfield, MA -- It reminded me how much I don't miss it.

Noa'zarc
02-16-2007, 01:51 PM
ArcAngel may know cold I bet is at least below zero up there.
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You ar so very correct MJDamiani!,last week it was a toasty and balmy -33,umhum thats minus 33,and they say the Earth warming & is to hot!

Hey Sail2u, it exactly -2 here right now,after last week if i have some spare time today i'm going to do a little tanning later!

I cannot believe they would put electrical wires into the ground without conduit?..!Thats awful having to uproot a perfectly good lawn because of rather poor insulating of wire ideas,i wonder who was the brain child of the electrical company world.

So far everything is still A-ok on the problem,thanks again goodums!

Arc'd angel,well almost!

MJDamiani
02-16-2007, 08:11 PM
Hey boys,
I hear that it may be going up to 40 degrees the weekend. I may open the swimming pool.

Mike