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View Full Version : Switched from CO2 to ?????????



MAC702
04-02-2004, 01:08 PM
Well, I finally got around to getting an argon mix. I went to Airgas, a new dealer for me, but they are on the way home from work everyday. He took my 20# CO2 tank in trade and I upgraded to a 125 CF tank of Ar mix. It cost me $99. How's that compare with any deals you've done?

Here's a the real question. When I asked for C25, he told me his steel mix was 84% Ar and 16% CO2. I went ahead and took it, and it does a fine job, though I now notice that "shrinkage line," or whatever it's called, appearing behind my puddle as I welded on a piece of .065 tubing wall, using the settings recommended on the inside of my MM175: WFS 70, V 3.5. Is that line a problem, or just an appearance issue? Never noticed it with CO2 welding.

Also, with this higher Ar mix, will it spray with my larger machines? I know 98% Ar with 2% O2 is recommended for spraying with the PowCon. But will other gases also work? I'm going to go ahead and try this weekend and see what happens. I bought an 11# spool of .045 solid wire.

Planet X
04-02-2004, 08:36 PM
90% of all my welding either short or spray has been with that same 'steel' mix, FWIW.

Do you have any pictures of this 'shrinkage' line. I only get it when I am spraying so I am curious to see it.

Aaron & Dan both use the argon/oxygen 2% to their satisfaction.

Widetrackman uses the 'steel'mix in question, but he has not posted much recently.

Dan has expressed concern that c15 type mixes may contribute to weld fusion issues with short circuit parameters, I have yet to ask him directly how this is because of the relative 'thinness' of materials that are usually short circuited. And generaly I thought weld burn-through was the prime concern with thin metals... But he is sure to chime in as he is good about responding to posts referencing him.:cool:

lotechman
04-02-2004, 10:38 PM
16 percent carbon dioxide is a good choice if you want spray. You cannot create a proper spray transfer situation unless your carbon dioxide is 20 percent or less. I run a C20 at home on my little 250 amp Miller clone. I can just squeeze out a spray transfer with .035 wire. I don't think I could do it ith .045 .

John C
04-03-2004, 06:59 AM
Since we're on the subject; I thought I would ask before getting a bottle of 95/5 or 98/2. Those two mixes are common around here. My question is how well would those mixes work running .035 on 14 ga. tube. The reason I ask is that I would like to run in a spray transfer mode at times, but still be able to weld 14 ga. without swapping to C25. Any other suggetions for a common gas mix that will do both?

Dan
04-03-2004, 09:19 AM
John,

What machine are you running? If your machine can output the proper power to spray with an 85/15, then the 85/15 would be your best choice. 85/15 will let you short arc up to about 1/8" without any lack of fusion issues.

Dan
04-03-2004, 09:30 AM
Originally posted by Planet X
90% of all my welding either short or spray has been with that same 'steel' mix, FWIW.

Do you have any pictures of this 'shrinkage' line. I only get it when I am spraying so I am curious to see it.

Aaron & Dan both use the argon/oxygen 2% to their satisfaction.

Widetrackman uses the 'steel'mix in question, but he has not posted much recently.

Dan has expressed concern that c15 type mixes may contribute to weld fusion issues with short circuit parameters, I have yet to ask him directly how this is because of the relative 'thinness' of materials that are usually short circuited. And generaly I thought weld burn-through was the prime concern with thin metals... But he is sure to chime in as he is good about responding to posts referencing him.:cool:

Planet X,

I have no problem using C-15 in short arc mode on material an 1/8" and thinner. I ve actually recommended it several time for light ga. sheet metal over C-25. Heck, i even have a bottle of C-15 on hand for light ga. sheetmetal. Can't use it in spray arc mode yet though since my lowly MM 210 doesn t have what it takes to spray arc with c-15. Who knows maybe next month I might have a different machine that will though.:cool:

John C
04-04-2004, 07:18 AM
Dan,
I'm attempting to get all of this with the PM215

Dan
04-05-2004, 03:41 AM
Originally posted by John C
Since we're on the subject; I thought I would ask before getting a bottle of 95/5 or 98/2. Those two mixes are common around here. My question is how well would those mixes work running .035 on 14 ga. tube. The reason I ask is that I would like to run in a spray transfer mode at times, but still be able to weld 14 ga. without swapping to C25. Any other suggetions for a common gas mix that will do both?

John,

A PM 215 isn t going output a high enough volt to spray arc with the 85/15. To spray with your PM 215 you re going to need to stay with the 98/2 or 95/5. However, they aren t a very good short arc gas mix. If you don t want to spend the time to switch bottles, mounting 2 bottles on the machine, and having them both hooked up so that you could turn the flow off from one bottle while using the other might be an option you want to pursue.

MAC702
04-05-2004, 12:27 PM
Time to let you know of my results with the new gas. I AM VERY IMPRESSED. I'm surprised this isn't a much more talked about mix. Probably because most weldors who do spray MIGing find it easier to have two gases on two machines and get the BEST for each.

BUT, that said, not only did this mix do VERY well at short arcing with the MM175 (with .023 and .030) and the PowCon (with .045,) IT ALSO SPRAYS with the PowCon when I get it tuned just right. Haven't tried it yet with the Trailblazer and its feeder (the gun is currently on the PowCon.)

I'd never sprayed before, and actually forgot that I was going to be listening for a different sound. I think the PowCon made it too easy though. It actually has a switch to go from Short Arcing to Spraying. Then, just make sure you are in high range and go from there. Only a little tweaking was required, and my third bead had everything I'd heard about spraying, deep, fast penetration with zero spatter and a distinctive whine with no sizzle. If I varied the controls just a little, the sizzle and spatter would come back, so using the recommended 98% Ar / 2% O2 probably gives you a greater range of abilities.

LordLimbo
04-07-2004, 11:15 PM
As said earlier you need 20% or less co2 to argon for spray...2-5% is normally used for Stainless as the lower the co2 the lower heat you get in the HAZ for tubing this would work in the short circuit mode normally 16 to 21 volts allways start at the lowest setting of course the adjust wfs to best weld...best spray for steel however and tubes would be 15- 20 percent co2 and settings of 25 to 32 volts..these voltages are welding voltages not open voltages.

Scott V
04-08-2004, 01:09 AM
Dan as far as mixes go,The even lower on the scale esab 210 will spray .035 wire with 85/15 and better with 90/10 which I just traded the 85/15 bottle in on.I also have a bottle of ab trimix 90/8/2 and a bottle of 98/2 o2.The last two are about a dead heat in spraying at lower voltages.The trimix has a pretty nice bead shape to it so wins in the short-arc mode.I also have a bottle of 75/25 and a bottle of stainless tri-mix.Plus two argon bottles.It makes you want to just use your tig with 100% argon,and forget the whole mig deal.:(

Dan
04-08-2004, 05:02 AM
Originally posted by Scott V
Dan as far as mixes go,The even lower on the scale esab 210 will spray .035 wire with 85/15 and better with 90/10 which I just traded the 85/15 bottle in on.I also have a bottle of ab trimix 90/8/2 and a bottle of 98/2 o2.The last two are about a dead heat in spraying at lower voltages.The trimix has a pretty nice bead shape to it so wins in the short-arc mode.I also have a bottle of 75/25 and a bottle of stainless tri-mix.Plus two argon bottles.It makes you want to just use your tig with 100% argon,and forget the whole mig deal.:(

Scott,

I think you have me beat in the maximum load voltage department. The max OCV on your (Barbara's) ESAB 210 is 37 volts, where as on my MM 210 it is 34.5 volts. So i bet you probably have a volt or two more then me to play with in the 200 amp range. The best i was able to do with 85/15 is a low level spray that had some spatter (see attachment). The 90/10 on the other had did pretty good. Due to this, i ve been wanting to get rid of the 85/15 and stock the 90/10 too. My son doesn t have school on Friday and my friend is suppose to becoming over saturday, so that we can do some modification to his hay hauling trailer. So friday, i might exchange the 85/15 for a bottle of 90/10. so that my friend and i can play around with the MM 210 using the 90/10.

Scott V
04-08-2004, 11:40 AM
Dan,
I think the 210 is going to be mine for the time being.I used the esab 160 mutimaster at her house last weekend.Now she wants that one!!!!!!! It worked pretty well using Coreshield 15 AWS Class E71T-GS .035 wire on her horse gates.:eek: It does make sense to have it down there.The downside is the 160 is much harder to dial in using solid wire for a rookie.The 210 is a wonderful stainless welder with the inductance tap.

I never seem to hold on to the handy little units.:( Or handy big units if you think about it.:D Looks like I need to do some more horse trading?:cool: