Comparison of Aluminum Stick Electodes - Can You Help?

soutthpaw · Jun 19, 2011

I keep meaning to ask if you are using a forhand (push) or backhand(pull) when running these rods. I did backhand on mine... also what rod movement are you trying? weave, whip etc??? In CA now. my Powcon should arrive this week, waiting for another person to get back to me about a different powcon needing repair for sale.. Being arc-products is an hour down the road, I figured a good time to find one was here in CA.

I had mixed experience with the AL slag. some came off easy and other was a pain... Need to find a knotted 4 1/2 inch stainless wire brush for my grinder. should get a day this week I can go hit a couple of welding supplies in CA. needing some parts to build railing in my back yard anyway and the selection and pricing here in LA is way better than CO

rankrank1 · Jun 19, 2011

Rick - Not much progress so far with this experiment. Maybe step 1 should be to test the rods that are easily/readily available in the stores that are open both late evening hours and long hours on weekends. Unfortunattely, many of the welding suppliers are not open on weekends when many of us weekend warriors are likely to have to implement an emergency need for stick welding aluminum. I have one welding supplier that is open until Noon on Saturday's but I have no idea what they carry in regards to aluminum rod. My other welding supplier is closed Saturdays. Regardless both are more than 40 minutes from my home so it is not easy for me to get there during the week when I am working long hours. I truly like my one welding supplier, but it hard for me to get there so I frequently purchase where it is more convenient for me even though it usually costs slightly more at the chain stores.

I can not speak for Canada, but in the United States area of SW Ohio this would pretty much limit the choices to:
a) TSC (i.e. Tractor Supply Company) carries Hobart in the 1/2 lb or 1 lb service packs of aluminum rods in both 3/32 and 1/8 diameter.
b) Menards carries US Forge brand welding rods and they offer an 1/8 diameter aluminum arc rod.
c) Small independent Hardware stores seem to carry Forney brand, but Forney seems to be phasing out much of their line-up and carrying Hobart so may not be worth evaluating as old stock may simply be replaced with Hobart as it is sold off????
d) NAPA auto parts. Not sure what they stock anymore, but they used to stock some welding supplies?
e) Lowes and Home Depot stock some rods, but I have never seen any aluminum arc rods there.

Anway - food for thought.

Rick V · Jun 20, 2011

soutthpaw said:
I keep meaning to ask if you are using a forhand (push) or backhand(pull) when running these rods. I did backhand on mine... also what rod movement are you trying? weave, whip etc???

Hi soutthpaw...
- slight backhand, no whip, no weave.
(Note: The Hobart electrodes that I had used came with no detailed instructions.)
As I said in a previous post...
"just keep moving steadily and don't look back. Frankly, you just don't have time to attempt anything fancy (whip) with the rod burning down so fast..."

rankrank1 said:
Rick - Not much progress so far with this experiment.... test the rods that are easily/readily available in the stores that are open both late evening hours and long hours on weekends."

Progress: Well, you aren't paying for this... so be a mite patient. :laugh:
It's taking time to gathering the electrodes - I'm waiting on 3/32 Harris mailed from the USA... have to get past our Postal Strike!
It's also taken time to acquire the aluminum material and to prepare all the 1/16, 1/8, 1/4 and 1/2 inch thick 'coupons', each 6 x 1.5 inches. In fact I have to make another metal run tomorrow to purchase more 1/4 inch plate.

Easily/readily available:
I do accept this point.
I purposely chose not to use certain brands of electrodes available here in the local Ottawa welding stores because I`m pretty certain you (in the USA) may not have access to them.
e.g. 4 Brands: Messier, Soudotec, Sodel and EZWELD.ALU

In respect of electrodes from the late evening & weekend stores:
a) TSC - yes I have Hobart 1/8 from TSC (Hobart doesn't make 3/32 inch)
b) Menards & US Forge - no Menards here, US Forge brand I've not seen in Canada
c) Forney - yes I have 1/8 from a local fasterner store.
d) NAPA - I could check that out... stock if any likely varies by size of store
e) Lowes & Home Depot - here they don't carry any specialty electrodes, just a pitiful selection of 6011 (maybe), 6013, 7014 (maybe) and 7018.

However, I have to strike a balance - I found that some of the 'better looking' common brand electrodes and any of the 3/32 inch types are only available though local welding stores or 'online'.
e.g. Blueshield (Air Liquide brand) 1/8 and 3/32 from LWS, Harris from Cyberweld (don't ship to Canada, coming via a nephew in Dallas, Tx)

Also, sometimes the package sitting on the shelf is too big (e.g. 5 lbs) and the 1/2 lb pack has to be ordered in.
e.g. 3/32 Blueshield - 5 lb on shelf, 1/2 lb was ordered in - took a week.
e.g. Harrris - available in Canada through LWS but only in 5 lb pack, Cyberweld (USA) repacks and sells/ships them in 1 lbs packs... but won't ship to Canada.

Add into the mix that these things are not cheap. The price in small 1/3 to 1/2 lb packs ranges from $36 to $69 per pound with $45 being the norm. Some of the prices I was quoted were ‘insane’ – e.g. $82/lb.

So yes, it's taken a while to jump through the hoops.
It all about Balance...
I can't test what I can't get and there's no point in testing what you can't get.

So it's looking like it's going to be 1/8 inch in Hobart, Forney & Blueshield and 3/32 inch in Blueshield and Harris.

rankrank1 · Jun 20, 2011

Rick - Sorry I did not mean to imply impatience as that was not my intention. I do realize the considerable expense involved although I had no idea that some of those excotic rods were quite that expensive. I was just throwing out my idea in hopes that it might streamline both your efforts and your costs.

In the US we can get Messer as it is a US based company in Wisconsin but it is by mail order at least in my area. (I have never heard of Messier other than the Hockey player long since retired - LOL). FWIW: I think the US Forge rods are a division of the Messer corp. I think they are even made in the same factory, but I have no idea if the quality and ingredients are the same between brands. I do know the contact addresses are identical for both companys.

My mistake on the 3/32 typo for Hobart. I got my websites confused when searching earlier today. Zena was the website that I saw them - they are the maker of the famous bolt on welder about the size of a vehicle alternator).

http://www.zena.net/htdocs/welders/Rods/Aluminum.shtml

Also found them here

http://www.weldingrods.com/#!aluminum

Rick V · Jun 20, 2011

Hey rankrank1... not too worry - no offence taken or meant to be given.
I thought your suggestions were 'spot on' and useful - also gave me a chance to include the reasons why things are the way they are.

Messier or Messer? Now you got me confused.:dizzy:
I thought the 5 lb blue-plastic carton at my local Praxair said 'Messier', but it could have said 'Messer'. The Praxair dude consulted his price sheet and said it listed at over $70/lb but he would give me a 'special price' of $208.45 for the 5 lb carton. (That's $41.69/lb) Trouble was... I needed only a 1/2 lb for the test; I was not about to buy 5 lbs of an unknown product.
"Same Factory"... sounds like your Messer = US Forge. (US Forge is 1/8 inch diameter only.)
I too am wondering just how many of these 'different' brand name electrodes I will be testing may have come out of the same factory.
e.g. That exclusive 'self-lifting slag' doesn't appear all that exclusive.

Zena - yeah, good suggestion!
I had ZENA NO-Gas All Aluminum Arc Welding Rods (3/32 and 1/8 inch) on my original list but dropped them because... let's see... oh yeah while the price was good at $19.95 per 1/2 lb pack, there were shipping challenges to Canada:

a) USPS (mail was not an option) - this is usually the cheapest method, avoids brokerage fees and if under $20 value comes in with no sales taxes. (Duty is zero.)

b) $14.00 UPS shipping charges on a $20 item?... but what was not stated is the ~$30+ per order that UPS charges for cross-border brokerage fees.

Free Trade is for Big Companies - Not for people!

Rick V · Jun 20, 2011

Rankrank1, I followed up on your suggestion to try NAPA Auto Parts. Good Call!
The same 1/8 inch aluminum electrodes are available both sides of the border and for almost the same price ~$29/lb.

My '1 lb' pack will be in tomorrow morning... just have to see if it really is 1 lb... that's like 36 rods.
Great!... that adds a 5th rod to the test mix: Hobart, Forney, Blueshield, Harris and now FirePower (NAPA).

MoonRise · Jun 20, 2011

pssst,

The "Firepower" brand is actually from Thermadyne.

Same folks that 'own' Victor, Stoody, Tweco, Thermal Arc, and Thermal Dynamics.

http://www.thermadyne.com/literatur...literature?task=&option=com_doclib&searchword=&dispBrand=Firepower&categoryID=3

soutthpaw · Jun 20, 2011

Rick V said:
Rankrank1, I followed up on your suggestion to try NAPA Auto Parts. Good Call!
The same 1/8 inch aluminum electrodes are available both sides of the border and for almost the same price ~$29/lb.
View attachment 69070
My '1 lb' pack will be in tomorrow morning... just have to see if it really is 1 lb... that's like 36 rods.
Great!... that adds a 5th rod to the test mix: Hobart, Forney, Blueshield, Harris and now FirePower (NAPA).

Firepower was a lincoln brand for their OA stuff , I think they were selling the firepower at HD or one of those box stores. Hard to keep track of how all the brand names get traded around

soutthpaw · Jun 20, 2011

There is some US Forge and Forney Al rod at ace hardware outlet
http://www.acehardwareoutlet.com/productDetails.aspx?SKU=998002745 1/2 lb for $9.99

Indiana Oxygen is advertizing some on ebay. http://cgi.ebay.com/A3-1-8-PREMIUM-4043-ALUMINUM-STICK-ELECTRODE-5-LB-BX-/140505881955?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item20b6cd9d63

Rick V · Jun 20, 2011

MoonRise said:
pssst, The "Firepower" brand is actually from Thermadyne.
Same folks that 'own' Victor, Stoody, Tweco, Thermal Arc, and Thermal Dynamics.
http://www.thermadyne.com/literatur...literature?task=&option=com_doclib&searchword=&dispBrand=Firepower&categoryID=3

Thanks Moonrise, I followed that up... and found the electrodes (under brand name Firepower) on page 70 of the Thermadyne Specialty Markets Catalog - 83-2908

Whay is telling is that the Thermadyne and Napa part numbers are almost identical.
1lb Thermadyne 1440-0419, NAPA 14400419
5lb Thermadyne 1440-0420, NAPA 14400420
Good Call!

soutthpaw said:
Firepower was a lincoln brand for their OA stuff , I think they were selling the firepower at HD or one of those box stores. Hard to keep track of how all the brand names get traded around

Actually soutthpaw, Firepower does come up under the Victor O/A stuff but it's not electrodes.

soutthpaw said:
There is some US Forge and Forney Al rod at ace hardware outlet

I'm still checking on this but where I am located, Ace Hardware stores are few, the closest ones to Ottawa are across the Ottawa river in small villages in Quebec. The big box stores (Home Depot, Rona, Lowes), Canadian Tire, TSC and Home Hardware stores in high density provide stiff competetion within the city.
It doesn't help that I can't find what you did on the Ace Hardware site. (Must be a better digger than me.) I see it using your link.
On top of that the Ace Hardware Canada site doesn't even have a search function or a product listing - makes it tough for us want-to-be consumers|!

soutthpaw · Jun 20, 2011

ok I ordered a box from Ace. $14 delivered. ill add those to the Bomaweld rods I am going to send you. Wanted to see if you could get them direct first. looks like a No.

Friend of mine here in CA has a bunch of 1/4 inch AL scrap metal I just got to go dig it out from wherever its buried at his house

rankrank1 · Jun 20, 2011

Rick V said:
...makes it tough for us want-to-be consumers|!

Rick that last link that I posted "Weldingrod.com" gives you a free pair of welding gloves with every 10 lb order. That should make things easier in the cost department for yah- LOL.

All kidding aside - they did have 3/32" too but I did not check their prices.

Rick V · Jun 21, 2011

soutthpaw said:
ok I ordered a box from Ace. $14 delivered. ill add those to the Bomaweld rods I am going to send you. Wanted to see if you could get them direct first. looks like a No.
Friend of mine here in CA has a bunch of 1/4 inch AL scrap metal I just got to go dig it out from wherever its buried at his house

Thanks soutthpaw, I hope you ordered the US Forge electrodes because I already have the Forney.
I guess I'll be adding two more 1/8 inch electrodes into the mix.
Yikes, that makes a total of 7 or 8 brands - depending upon how you count.
- 2 brands in 3/32 inch (Harris and BlueShield), and
- 6 brands in 1/8 inch (Hobart, Forney, BlueShield, Napa/Thermadyne, US Forge and Bomaweld)

I'm quickly moving from not having enough rod brands to not having enough aluminum material !
When you're ready to send me those rods, we'll PM so you know the right border-crossing words to print and the 'right' value to declare on your 'gift' to me :laugh:

rankrank1 said:
Rick that last link that I posted "Weldingrod.com" gives you a free pair of welding gloves with every 10 lb order. That should make things easier in the cost department for yah- LOL. All kidding aside - they did have 3/32" too but I did not check their prices.

Thanks rankrank1... but I think I will pass on those guys.
The site shows products but no prices; you have to contact them... likely because they don't appear to deal retail.
"We are the premier distributor for high quality welding electrodes."

I think I have enough readily available, common electrode brands in hand or on the way to do a reasonable comparison.

Here's... The Draft Plan - open to your suggestions.
Using the upper end of the recommended amperage for each size electrode...
1 - Run 8 parallel beads on 1/2 inch thick aluminum plate at ~70 degrees F
2 - Run 8 parallel beads on 1/2 inch thick aluminum plate with preheat to ~200 degrees F
3 - 1/16 inch T joint at 70F: 'try' making 2 fillets welds with each 3/32 electrode brand
4 - Repeat 3 but with a preheat to 200F
5 - 1/8 inch T joint at 70F: run 2 fillets welds with each 3/32 and 1/8 electrode brand
6 - repeat 5 but with a preheat to 200F
7 - repeat 5 but with optimum temp/amps for each 3/32 and 1/8 electrode brand
8 - 1/4 inch T joint at 70F: run 2 fillets welds with each 3/32 and 1/8 electrode brand
9 - repeat 8 but with a preheat to 200F
10-repeat 8 but with optimum temp/amps for each 3/32 and 1/8 electrode brand
11- 1/2 inch T joint with optimum temp/amps for each 1/8 electrode brand

Here's a Pictorial view of The Plan.

I make that as a total of 16 weld beads plus... 60 T joints and/or 120 fillet welds!

soutthpaw · Jun 21, 2011

According to the webpage it is US Forge. the Forney was like 3 rods for $10 heh...
I will try and duplicate some of your tests specifically to look for differences across the machines and try and eliminate other variables. So will need to agree on some settings like rod angle and movement.
how are you doing the pre-heat? I was thinking if you run the first bead on cold plate then use a IR thermometer to measure the adjacent area on the plate and wait for it to cool to specified temp and run the next bead.
Do you happen to own and inductive DC ammeter that u can check the actual amp output of your welder. http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_03482369000P?prdNo=1&blockNo=1&blockType=G1
wouldn't have to do it with the aluminum rods. any steel rod should still show you exactly the output on each welder power setting?
Oh your most recent fillet weld pics you posted looks much better. much more what I would expect for a result from these rods.....

Also should make a list of what criteria the welds are being judged on. see if it ca be the same across the criteria
such as SLAG REMOVAL = Good-Fair-Poor , Puddle control= Good-Fair-Poor, Penetration - Low, Med, deep

Rick V · Jun 21, 2011

soutthpaw...
RE: According to the webpage it is US Forge.
Good!

RE: to look for differences across the machines and try and eliminate other variables.
I plan to use only my simple transformer welder - max DC output is 140 amps

RE: to agree on some settings like rod angle and movement.
Rod angle will likely be 0 to 10 degrees backhand; movement will be stringer and smooth as you can make it with a travel speed the 'feels' right.

RE: how are you doing the pre-heat?
Pretty much just as you said, "run the first bead on cold plate then use a IR thermometer to measure the adjacent area on the plate and wait for it to cool to specified temp (same as first one) and run the next bead." I just use a fan to speed the cooling process.

On the 200 F preheat welds, I use a propane torch to get the whole coupon up to temperature, always checking with an IR gun, then get welding asap. I then wait for the coupon to cool - usually to room temp (fan assisted). I like to remove the flux and learn how I did and what I might change to improve. I then adjust (amps, angle, speed, etc.) for a better result. The I repeat the process to weld the other fillet on the T joint.

RE: Do you happen to own and inductive DC ammeter that u can check the actual amp output of your welder.
Yes but it's AC only. What I do instead is to tap into two widely spaced points (say 8 feet apart) on the ground cable and measure the DC voltage drop (millivolts). I calibrate using 10 amps flowing from a battery (stinger and ground cable shorted) and measure the voltage drop. This gives me cable resistance over 8 feet. With the ohms/foot, I can then adjust my tap points so that say a 1 millivolt drop = 1 amp. I use a digital camera in movie mode to record the multimeter display while I weld - this gives me a record of the actual welding current from start to end.

RE: wouldn't have to do it with the aluminum rods. any steel rod should still show you exactly the output on each welder power setting?
I don't think I will be able to calibrate my welder output on each welder power setting. My simple welder doesn't have 'switched' settings. I shift a lever (in front of an amperage scale) that moves an inductive core inside the transformer. Once that lever is moved, I doubt that I could return to the same amperage - even if the lever looked like it was in the same position. :laugh: I'd likely be able to repeat a previously used setting within 10 amps or so - working over a range of say 70 to 140 amp range.

RE: list of what criteria the welds are being judged on...such as SLAG REMOVAL = Good-Fair-Poor , Puddle control= Good-Fair-Poor, Penetration - Low, Med, deep
Sounds good and we need to expand that list... but, Yikes! ... in my experience with just the Hobart rod, I had a pretty wild ride!
Slag Removal was non existent - scrub off with hot water when done. Poor!
Puddle Control? I could never see the weld pudddle, just that puddle of fluid slag trying to interfere with my short arc! Poor!
Penetration: To measure that requires a lot more work/time - cutting, polishing and etching. I might want do that on a few of the 1/4 and all the 1/2 inch fillet welds.

One of the things folks will want to know is how easy (overall) was the rod to use. Was it hard to start, hard to maintain an arc, if so - what were the needed work arounds. How smooth did the rod run? How was the weld bead - smooth surface, cold or hot looking, etc.

Southpaw, I'm hoping that just one of these rods will be an early stand out above the rest - and that will be that.
(They can't all be as nasty as the Hobart... can they?) :laugh:

While we need a general plan of approach, as soon as 'the pedal meets the metal', don't be surprised if The Plan gets modified on the fly.
e.g. 'Tuned in' amperage for a nice weld bead on a flat plate may need to be jacked up a few times to obtain a similar performance on the T joint - more heat sink!

Anyway... this should be lot of fun!

Rick V · Jun 21, 2011

A couple of things...

1 - MAXIMUM PREHEAT TEMPERATURE ?
I used 180 F last time but would like to move to 200 F to get more fluidity in the weld.

The most definitive references that I could find were:

www.scribd.com/.../Anderson-Greenwood-POPRV-Series-90-and-9000 - Cached - Similar
For ASME code requirements, the maximum temperature for aluminum is 250°F [121°C].

http://www.weldreality.com/aluminumalloys.htm
• 5XXX aluminum, max preheat / interpass temp 150F 65C to avoid cracks.
• With aluminum alloys with 3.5 - 5.5 Mg to avoid cracking don't preheat over 250F (120C).
• With aluminum alloys with 3.5 - 5.5 Mg to avoid cracking ensure max interpass temp is 300F 150C.

WELDING 6061-T6, THINK HEAT REDUCTION:
* The MAX preheat and "interpass temp" is 250F, do not weld on this part till the temp is below 200F

2 - ELECTRODE/WELD JUDGING CRITERIA
Maybe we need to develop a 'Score Card' - just like for golf ! :laugh:
Here's some of the items thought of so far, feel free to suggest others.

Score Card - Circle the answer

BASIC INFORMATION
Weld Type: Bead, Butt, Fillet
Weld Position: Bead, Butt = 1G, 2G, 3G, 4G - See Attached Picture
Weld Position: Fillet = 1F, 2F, 3F, 4F

Rod Brand:
Rod Descriptor:
Rod Diameter: 5/64, 3/32, 1/8 inch

Material Thickness: 1/16, 3/32, 1/8, 5/32, 1/4, 3/8, 1/2

Welder Brand:
Welder Descriptor:
Welding Amperage:

ELECTRODE PERFORMANCE
Ratings: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
(1 = poor, 5 = fair, 10 - outstanding)
Starting
Restarts
Arc stability
Arc Length: coating contact, short, medium, long
Weld puddle control
General useability
General ease of use
Amperage range

SLAG:
fumes
fluidity
allows seeing weld pool
does not interfere with arc
does not force change of weld position (e.g. from 2F to 1F or 3F)
ease of general removal
ease of residue removal

WELD
Looks: cold, OK, hot
Bead contour: concave, flat, convex
Wet in:
Surface smoothness:
General appearance:
Penetration
Overall Rating

Rick V · Jun 21, 2011

Rick V said:
RE: to look for differences across the machines and try and eliminate other variables.
I plan to use only my simple transformer welder - max DC output is 140 amps

On second thought, it might be informative to also use the 3/32 electrodes with my 80 amp inverter. There a several folks out there with small inverters like the Thermadyne 95S and Harbor Freight 80 amp stick welders. While past experience has shown that my inverter didn't have the amps needed to run to 1/8 Hobart electrodes well, it might do alright with the smaller 3/32 rods welding 1/8 through 1/4 inch thick material. Be useful to know.

soutthpaw · Jun 21, 2011

I would avoid the 1-10 scale. that was why i suggested the 3 step scale less confusion if more that 1 person is trying to evaluate their experience
that weldrods description recommends 200-300F for thicker material preheat. also vertical (guess they mean perpendicular) rod angle

Rick V · Jun 21, 2011

soutthpaw said:
I would avoid the 1-10 scale. that was why i suggested the 3 step scale less confusion if more that 1 person is trying to evaluate their experience

Too Funny... I was thinking the same thing! (scary)

I like the 3-step scale suggestion.
I was imaging a final graphic display of the results and I visualized a traffic light.

Red, Yellow, Green - for Poor, Marginal, Good to Go!

Rick V · Jun 21, 2011

NEWS FLASH... sample 5/64 inch diameter electrodes are on the way!
Now I may have an appropriate weapon to attack thin 1/16 and 1/8 inch aluminum at just 55 amps... going to be interesting!

Comparison of Aluminum Stick Electodes - Can You Help?

soutthpaw

rankrank1

Rick V

rankrank1

Rick V

Rick V

MoonRise

soutthpaw

soutthpaw

Rick V

soutthpaw

rankrank1

Rick V

soutthpaw

Rick V

Rick V

Rick V

soutthpaw

Rick V

Rick V

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