Pulled a permit to run 220v 40a circuit on 8-3 romex for an ALPHATIG 201XD

vdotmatrix · Jan 17, 2020

Thank you... i just read the what is new not five mins ago...somewhere...i copied the specs to my photos to show the insoector and will report back .

danielplace said:
Oh it's enough. That is for sure.
My Dynasty 280 only pulls like 33 maxed out on 240 single phase.

It should have a nameplate possibly even stating the input current.

Here is the same machine basically as far as amp draw going to be identical.

Show this to your inspector if wondering what it uses.
Requirements, 28 amps
The 200X same power usage.

It is the same only 210XD has more adjustability to certain parameters.

What is New

Generally, AHP’s Alphatig’s 200X did a pretty fine job, so the 201XD has a high bar to reach. The earlier version of this remarkable arc welder (the Alphatig 200x) came equipped with bleeding-edge inverter technology combined with PMW and IGBT, and it worked great on both metal and aluminum materials. It was portable and affordable, and it had a reputation for offering the best performance out of all the machines in its price range.
The newer version features improvements concerning selectable AC frequency and balance settings, enhanced tungsten life, and improved properties of the arc cone as well as the etching width. What’s more, you can operate this unit remotely via the 2T/4T sequencer switch and swap between programmable features: post-flow control, start & end cycle, and more.

danielplace · Jan 17, 2020

I do know they prefer to be reading nameplates on the actual machine. Best of luck. Northern Virginia inspector is going to be a reasonable is my guess.

He is certainly is going to be impressed you even pulled a permit. Most residential contractors would do that job without a permit unless customer demanded to pay more than they need to.

Kudo's for backing up your work you've done by having a inspection done. It could be well worth it if there was a fire or something right after you did work even unrelated. You never know today. Best to cover your butt when possible.

Norcal01 · Jan 17, 2020

A 50A receptacle is permitted by the NEC to be supplied at 40A, see table 210.(B)(3).

vdotmatrix · Jan 17, 2020

Norcal01 said:
A 50A receptacle is permitted by the NEC to be supplied at 40A, see table 210.(B)(3).

The outlet says 30-50/250.

vdotmatrix · Jan 17, 2020

Good news, i learned something.

At least for my 240v welder, without seeing the non existent circuit schematic or installation requirements, all you have to do to determine how to wire the power outlet is look at the unaltered manufacturers power plug.

He said the plug is the instruction manual in this case: Two hots and one ground because AHP’s power plug is three pronged.

If it required a neutral like a dryer, you would have a four pronged plug-end of story.

So, i am happy...i can add a duplex 20a to make room in my panel.

I told him of my plan to sleeve the cable in the garage and said it wasn't necessary but a good idea to protect the cable.

Now i can start shopping for materials one of which is a regular non-flush mount cover for my qo140m200 panel. I plan to cut the dry wall 2” around the panel, lose the flush mount, and later add a hinged panel to hide the eye-sore to have easy access to the cables going into the load center. Thanks all.

Sandy · Jan 17, 2020

Just to throw some fun time logic into these types of things every once in a while: If I were an inspector I might have the opinion that the only time the machine spec plate matters is if it is hardwired into that circuit, no receptacle. As long as there is a receptacle there it could be this welder today, any other welder tomorrow. I might say "I'm here to inspect this circuit from the receptacle to the breaker panel, I don't care what all equipment is setting in the room".

danielplace · Jan 17, 2020

vdotmatrix said:
Good news, i learned something.

At least for my 240v welder, without seeing the non existent circuit schematic or installation requirements, all you have to do to determine how to wire the power outlet is look at the unaltered manufacturers power plug.

He said the plug is the instruction manual in this case: Two hots and one ground because AHP’s power plug is three pronged.

If it required a neutral like a dryer, you would have a four pronged plug-end of story.

So, i am happy...i can add a duplex 20a to make room in my panel.

Of course it needs two hots and a ground.

No one on here ever thought it needed a neutral. That is pretty clear. It's a welder. None are 120/240 and none are going to need a neutral.

Even if they have a 120 cooler or convenience outlet like some do that is even derived from 240 by the machine.

danielplace · Jan 17, 2020

Sandy said:
Just to throw some fun time logic into these types of things every once in a while: If I were an inspector I might have the opinion that the only time the machine spec plate matters is if it is hardwired into that circuit, no receptacle. As long as there is a receptacle there it could be this welder today, any other welder tomorrow. I might say "I'm here to inspect this circuit from the receptacle to the breaker panel, I don't care what all equipment is setting in the room".

If it is a general purpose or is a appliance going where the plug is just one basic example of it matters what is going there.

Add a 15 amp outlet off of a general circuit and tell them a freezer or refrigerator is going there and see if it don't need a dedicated 20 amp all of a sudden. Kinda does matter what is plugging into it.

Put a cord cap on a cooktop and it and plug into a outlet the whole circuit is going to need to be fit for the load if you were getting inspection on it.

It matters and a inspector worth a darn should care. Otherwise why bother.

Any body can run wire and put a breaker at one end and outlet at the other. Feeding it what it needs and protecting it with the proper over current device is important even on plug and cord connected but I fully know what you are saying in general.

A plug is just a plug if the wire and breaker match and it is a proper install and should pass only on that account.

Simply installing a plug instead of hardwired does not guarantee a inspection that much I can promise you. You can put a cord cap on airhandler and make that a disconnect by installing an outlet. Do you think it doesn't matter if it is sized for the unit ? Ok LOL.

Sandy · Jan 17, 2020

danielplace said:
If it is a general purpose or is a appliance going where the plug is just one basic example of it matters what is going there.

Add a 15 amp outlet off of a general circuit and tell them a freezer or refrigerator is going there and see if it don't need a dedicated 20 amp all of a sudden. Kinda does matter what is plugging into it.

Put a cord cap on a cooktop and it and plug into a outlet the whole circuit is going to need to be fit for the load if you were getting inspection on it.

It matters and a inspector worth a darn should care. Otherwise why bother

We're talking a dedicated circuit here, point to point. You can make the honest statement that it is dedicated for a welder, just which welder.

Broccoli1 · Jan 21, 2020

danielplace said:
Oh it's enough. That is for sure.
My Dynasty 280 only pulls like 33 maxed out on 240 single phase.

33 amps while using the Tig process, 46 amps on Stick.

lugweld · Jan 23, 2020

You'd be surprised at how many licensed electricians can't understand how to wire a welder. They can't imagine 240V without a neutral and a ground. I've seen them literally tear up a welder trying to rewire it to their "code". Refer any electrician to article 630 of the NEC if there are any questions. Wire diameter is derated for duty cycle and is sized according to the "rated" amperage, and breakers are sized according to inrush current or a formula if inrush isn't given. This blows a lot of electricians minds.

But the standard as mentioned is Black, large flat prong, white smaller flat prong. Green/bare wire is ground, center, rounded prong. White serves as neutral on 120V.

danielplace · Jan 23, 2020

lugweld said:
You'd be surprised at how many licensed electricians can't understand how to wire a welder. They can't imagine 240V without a neutral and a ground. I've seen them literally tear up a welder trying to rewire it to their "code". Refer any electrician to article 630 of the NEC if there are any questions. Wire diameter is derated for duty cycle and is sized according to the "rated" amperage, and breakers are sized according to inrush current or a formula if inrush isn't given. This blows a lot of electricians minds.

But the standard as mentioned is Black, large flat prong, white smaller flat prong. Green/bare wire is ground, center, rounded prong. White serves as neutral on 120V.

It is 240. There is no difference in the hots. Either hot leg can be on the wide or narrow prongs.

You only use those colors for Romex and the cord but never in a raceway.

vdotmatrix · Jan 23, 2020

I bought a 50ft roll of 8/2.

After running it through the ceiling, through the garage wall, along the wall, ceiling, and wall through some gray 3/4” electrical gray pvc and through the ready outlet, instructions required 6” of wire inside this device—-all I had was exactly 6” left. What luck!

I am waiting on the tandem 20a breaker that is between Boise and my mailbox and install the 40a as well to complete the project.

I heard from Schneider electric and they want to know series, S/N and so on for my breaker panel to be sure that this tandem breaker enroute is the one for this application—not much I can do now anyway. I did not see much variation in QO2020c tandem breakers out there in my search.

So happy to call for final inspection and get back to welding!

danielplace · Jan 24, 2020

vdotmatrix said:
I bought a 50ft roll of 8/2.

After running it through the ceiling, through the garage wall, along the wall, ceiling, and wall through some gray 3/4” electrical gray pvc and through the ready outlet, instructions required 6” of wire inside this device—-all I had was exactly 6” left. What luck!

I am waiting on the tandem 20a breaker that is between Boise and my mailbox and install the 40a as well to complete the project.

I heard from Schneider electric and they want to know series, S/N and so on for my breaker panel to be sure that this tandem breaker enroute is the one for this application—not much I can do now anyway. I did not see much variation in QO2020c tandem breakers out there in my search.

So happy to call for final inspection and get back to welding!

There are actually 4 different type of Square D QO tandem breakers. You will most likely want the one with standard clip for outer rail. The hook style are to prevent you from installing in panel boards not rated for tandem breakers.

https://www.relectric.com/blog/2018/04/16/understanding-tandem-twin-breakers-for-qo-load-centers/

Just be careful because you must realize when using tandems you now have both of those on that breaker on the same phase. Just be sure you don't put anything 240 on one or any two that are sharing a neutral as you risk meltdown of the neutral. Multiwire branch circuits that share neutral must be on separate phases. You can't always just move the circuits to tandems in the same order they were and you must know what your doing and looking for to get them in correctly.
If you only installing one should be easy just look out for what I mentioned that the two you put on that tandem don't share a neutral.

vdotmatrix · Jan 24, 2020

These circuits that are about to go on the tandem are 120v 20a circuit(s). I read this material already but enjoyed revisiting the information. It is very helpful....but i am still using the qo2020c tandem. Thank you bery much.

danielplace said:
There are actually 4 different type of Square D QO tandem breakers. You will most likely want the one with standard clip for outer rail. The hook style are to prevent you from installing in panel boards not rated for tandem breakers.

https://www.relectric.com/blog/2018/04/16/understanding-tandem-twin-breakers-for-qo-load-centers/

Just be careful because you must realize when using tandem you have both of those on that breaker on the same phase. Just be sure you don't put anything 240 on one or any two that are sharing a neutral as you risk meltdown of the neutral. Multiwire branch circuits that share neutral must be on separate phases.

danielplace · Jan 24, 2020

vdotmatrix said:
These circuits that are about to go on the tandem are 120v 20a circuit(s). I read this material already but enjoyed revisiting the information. It is very helpful....but i am still using the qo2020c tandem. Thank you bery much.

Ok no problem.

Wasn't sure then and not sure yet you understood the phases on two 120 volt circuits can't share neutral on same phases. Just wanted you to not fry out a neutral with the potential of 40 amps of load being applied to it is ALL. Saying they are both 120 volt circuits means it could be two sharing neutral and if you are saying you know they aren't already then great.

I wasn't trying to tell you not to use the tandem.
Because they are 120 volt circuits means they have a neutral. As long as those circuits have there OWN neutrals NO problem. Your good to go.

I guess your working with romex so pretty simple I recon. If they were sharing neutrals one circuit would be black and one would be a red. As long as both circuits are their own romex and black in color you are golden.

And of course if the tandem you bought is correct for panel.

vdotmatrix · Jan 24, 2020

I am not an electrician.
Sharing neutral on the same phases? Each circuit has its own romex bundle, the only thing they may be sharing it
is the same bus bar for either ground or neutral.......

But fun y you shoukd mention... i just heard from schnieder. Here is what they said which makes me think they think a no hook breaker doesnt belong in my panel, except thats the only thing in there.

Thank you for contacting Schneider Electric. The QOT2020 tandem breaker (With HOOK) is designed for use in present series (since 1967) of QO load centers which are rated to accept tandem breakers.

The QO2020 circuit breaker (NO HOOK) is designed for use in much older "Non-Class CTL" QO load centers, which were manufactured at a time prior to the existence of CTL, or circuit limiting, classification of load centers.

The change to the circuit limiting classification of load centers came about due to a change in the National Electrical Code in 1965.

Since your load center is a Class CTL Panelboard, the use of QO2020 is an NEC violation. Please be guided accordingly.

danielplace said:
Ok no problem.

Wasn't sure then and not sure yet you understood the phases on two 120 volt circuits can't share neutral on same phases. Just wanted you to not fry out a neutral with the potential of 40 amps of load being applied to it is ALL. Saying they are both 120 volt circuits means it could be two sharing neutral and if you are saying you know they aren't already then great.

I wasn't trying to tell you not to use the tandem.
Because they are 120 volt circuits means they have a neutral. As long as those circuits have there OWN neutrals NO problem. Your good to go.

I guess your working with romex so pretty simple I recon. If they were sharing neutrals one circuit would be black and one would be a red. As long as both circuits are their own romex and black in color you are golden.

And of course if the tandem you bought is correct for panel.

vdotmatrix · Jan 24, 2020

danielplace said:
Ok no problem.

Wasn't sure then and not sure yet you understood the phases on two 120 volt circuits can't share neutral on same phases. Just wanted you to not fry out a neutral with the potential of 40 amps of load being applied to it is ALL. Saying they are both 120 volt circuits means it could be two sharing neutral and if you are saying you know they aren't already then great.

I wasn't trying to tell you not to use the tandem.
Because they are 120 volt circuits means they have a neutral. As long as those circuits have there OWN neutrals NO problem. Your good to go.

I guess your working with romex so pretty simple I recon. If they were sharing neutrals one circuit would be black and one would be a red. As long as both circuits are their own romex and black in color you are golden.

And of course if the tandem you bought is correct for panel.

You are absolutely right. My panel is not UL listed to accept tandem breakers. It has 40 spaces for 40 breakers.

I have a tandem breaker installed thats been there for 14 years. So i have 41 in a 40 panel and had i added this tandem, I would have had 42. I am going to have to see if I can change the electrical plan to add a subpanel....how ugly.

danielplace · Jan 24, 2020

vdotmatrix said:
You are absolutely right. My panel is not UL listed to accept tandem breakers. It has 40 spaces for 40 breakers.

I have a tandem breaker installed thats been there for 14 years. So i have 41 in a 40 panel and had i added this tandem, I would have had 42. I am going to have to see if I can change the electrical plan to add a subpanel....how ugly.

Yes a 8 circuit subpanel at least and move some 5 circuits from panel to it. That gets rid of tandem you already had and frees the four spaces you need. Two to feed subpanel and two for welder breaker.

But what you posted has me still slightly confused. Lol.

If it was already full then you would need two more tandems and put 2 circuits on each in order to gain two spaces for the 2 pole 40. You got to get 4 120 volt circuits in two spaces to make 2 free spaces for a new 2 pole to fit in.

But 2 more for total of 3 unless you hand pick the loads really good you are pushing it maybe.

I would say stick another one in there and call it done not sure about 3 though.

A amprobe and some time you could likely find 4 circuits that never exceed 10 amps load each. I wouldn't mention the not rated part to inspector although most are versed well in the incompatible breaker area of the code but that you may pull off even if he knows and knows the panel isn't rated. Only two tandems especially hand picked circuits would not be a issue as you well know since the other one you already have hasn't been a issue. It is when people fill the panel with them that the buss could be overloaded easily.

vdotmatrix · Jan 25, 2020

man its been a difficult day.....

I fergit there are people out there who actually read the posts.....yes, again you are spot on... right now i have one blank space in a 40 space panel. Of the 39 already used, one space has a 15-15 tandem. I need one more space for the 2-pole 40a for the 240 that I I have left is wiring the panel.....the more i read about the corner i have painted myself into, the more i am reading about being out of phase and loads being unbalanced in the load center- who knew. The two circuits i was going to combine on a tandem, power the over head fan in the upstairs bathroom AND the heater in that fan...which could conceivably run at the same time ( not good right) .....craptacular......right?

If you wouldnt have brought this to my attention, the inspector would not have caught this-maybe. The other tandem, just so happens to also be the other bathroom fan and radiant floor heat. So i read, what happens if you put a tandem where it doesn't belong or allowed....it may trip, it may get warm...

Where you saying to cherry pick a set of lower demand breakers, that were 15-15 and call it done?

I have been mapping out all the circuits today trying to see if i could get rid of one....i found one old circuit that only powers the modem and router outlet that i may just kill, and run a branch off a different outlet circuit and gain that slot.....i will have to move a handful of breakers up by one and then i can call it a day!

danielplace said:
Yes a 8 circuit subpanel at least and move some 5 circuits from panel to it. That gets rid of tandem you already had and frees the four spaces you need. Two to feed subpanel and two for welder breaker.

But what you posted has me still slightly confused. Lol.

If it was already full then you would need two more tandems and put 2 circuits on each in order to gain two spaces for the 2 pole 40. You got to get 4 120 volt circuits in two spaces to make 2 free spaces for a new 2 pole to fit in.

But 2 more for total of 3 unless you hand pick the loads really good you are pushing it maybe.

I would say stick another one in there and call it done not sure about 3 though.

A amprobe and some time you could likely find 4 circuits that never exceed 10 amps load each. I wouldn't mention the not rated part to inspector although most are versed well in the incompatible breaker area of the code but that you may pull off even if he knows and knows the panel isn't rated. Only two tandems especially hand picked circuits would not be a issue as you well know since the other one you already have hasn't been a issue. It is when people fill the panel with them that the buss could be overloaded easily.

Pulled a permit to run 220v 40a circuit on 8-3 romex for an ALPHATIG 201XD

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