Pulled a permit to run 220v 40a circuit on 8-3 romex for an ALPHATIG 201XD

danielplace · Jan 25, 2020

Many panels are so far out of balance in real time it isn't funny. It sucks scrambling circuits around to balance a panel and making up new panel schedule but I can tell you from 43 years in the trade that as far as the service and/or the drop connections goes seems the neutral is burnt up as at a greater rate on average I would say has been my experience from running 24 hour service truck for 20 of my 43 years.

The neutral load does not have to be high but when the panel is severely unbalanced it is.

If the 120 load on A phase is the same as B phase the neutral doesn't have to carry any load whatsoever through the service/panel neutral.

vdotmatrix · Jan 25, 2020

Well there ya go again. Lol. I am not an electrician. A lot I dont understand many terms and electrical concepts but I appreciate the exposure......I do not do this stuff to save money, i do it because it is a lot of fun for me and appreciate that there are forums like this for solid help. I have pulled many permits, and i think this has been the most ill prepared i have ever been.. older age...i guess. I was still serious about my cherry picking question though i think killing a circuit is a better option.

danielplace said:
Many panels are so far out of balance in real time it isn't funny. It sucks scrambling circuits around to balance a panel and making up new panel schedule but I can tell you from 43 years in the trade that as far as the service and/or the drop connections goes seems the neutral is burnt up as at a greater rate on average I would say has been my experience from running 24 hour service truck for 20 of my 43 years.

The neutral load does not have to be high but when the panel is severely unbalanced it is.

If the 120 load on A phase is the same as B phase the neutral doesn't have to carry any load whatsoever through the service/panel neutral.

danielplace · Jan 25, 2020

vdotmatrix said:
Well there ya go again. Lol. I am not an electrician. A lot I dont understand.....I do not do this stuff to save money, i do this because it is alot of fun for me. I have pulled many permits, and i think this has been the most ill prepared i have ever been.. older age...i guess. I was still serious about my cherry picking question though i think killing a circuit is a better optikn .

Oh heck ya that is the idea. The dedicated wifi router circuit eating up a space is no brainer you can wire nut it right to whatever 120 volt circuit you find pretty much and if if you just stay on same phase you take it from then for sure no worries and if it really is dedicated it has it's own neutral maybe so if that is the case then it don't matter which phase you add it to . There is likely another breaker in a 40 circuit panel somewhere idling along at a load of less than a few amps you could probably do the same to and be fine. The WORST is a breaker trips one day if the load situation changed drastically and you address it then. It can't overload the wiring.

You may just want to be sure what your doing is correct by having a electrician look it over as I would not like you to make a mistake that will cost even more if you make a mistake. Besides just have the experience to work on potentially live wiring. Be careful and be safe. Shut the MAIN off and test with known working tester when working with it so you are safest.

Always a good idea to check service load on each phase. The difference is of course always the load on the neutral. 100 on one and 50 on other phase equals 50 amps load on your neutral, 120 volt loads cancel each other out at the point of the neutral return.

vdotmatrix · Jan 25, 2020

Well here she is.

Gosh it would be so much easier to add the tandem At the green....but next to that would be the 40a welding breaker.

The more involved option involves removing the breaker (red), cut off and cap or tape those connections, disconnect from outlet box, run branch from a different circuit about 7-feet away and move the transfer switch lead to another breaker for modem and router, then scoot all breakers up to fill void and then finally add my 2-pole 40a for the welder at the bottom at the green.

The red circle is the other 15a tandem.

I just remembered the point to this post and the dilemma...if i kill the one circuit (red), that from what I can tell services only one outlet, i cannot know if it goes to anywhere else. Probably not a good idea to kill a circuit that was wired into the house when it was built.

The sub panel is a whole new kettle of fish.

danielplace · Jan 26, 2020

vdotmatrix said:
View attachment 1709658

Well here she is.

Gosh it would be so much easier to add the tandem At the green....but next to that would be the 40a welding breaker.

The more involved option involves removing the breaker (red), cut off and cap or tape those connections, disconnect from outlet box, run branch from a different circuit about 7-feet away and move the transfer switch lead to another breaker for modem and router, then scoot all breakers up to fill void and then finally add my 2-pole 40a for the welder at the bottom at the green.

The red circle is the other 15a tandem.

I just remembered the point to this post and the dilemma...if i kill the one circuit (red), that from what I can tell services only one outlet, i cannot know if it goes to anywhere else. Probably not a good idea to kill a circuit that was wired into the house when it was built.

The sub panel is a whole new kettle of fish.

That is what I was just explaining to you. You do not have to rewire it to refeed it. If they are both in the panel just splice them together and run to one breaker. Done. I mean if you are going to just refeed it from another circuit don't you think that circuit is already in the panel. Then if it needs to be moved one day you can still do that too. The worst it can do it trip one day if some load you don't see now appears. You need a amprobe. You could see if there were other loads on it possibly.

I know what two I like to combine personally and it is against code because they are both appliances and should be on their own but the dishwasher and disposal are two that together will never trip a 20 amp breaker. Easy space. I mean when it starts to get to where it is yours and as long as it is safe sometimes you got to do what you got to do.

I do not know what is on your laundry circuit. Legally you can run other outlet in same room as washer is off the same circuit. Not sure if washer and laundry are two other that could be investigated as possible to combine maybe. Not sure why they do allow it but don't of and know what the combined loads of say a washer and a clothes iron is.

What is the lesser of the evils. Lol.

vdotmatrix · Jan 26, 2020

I did the easiest thing today and removed the one breaker and moved everything up one space. I pulled the 8-2 into the panel, The breaker is wired and I am waiting for everyone to go to sleep to turn everything off, put the ground in the bus and click the breaker in. Done!

BUT...

What I did was inconvenient. I removed the breaker, cut the end off the black wire and put a wire nut on it and left it in the panel.....the neutral and ground are still in place.

Can I add this black wire, the one to the lone outlet for the modem and router, to another breaker already in place in the panel?

Is this what you mean?

bigb · Jan 26, 2020

danielplace said:
Many panels are so far out of balance in real time it isn't funny. It sucks scrambling circuits around to balance a panel and making up new panel schedule but I can tell you from 43 years in the trade that as far as the service and/or the drop connections goes seems the neutral is burnt up as at a greater rate on average I would say has been my experience from running 24 hour service truck for 20 of my 43 years..

Are you referring to commercial or residential panels? How do you balance a residential panel, not knowing what 1 pole loads will be run at the same time and with very few circuits that you actually even know the load? I can see putting two furnace blowers on opposing legs and maybe the small appliance circuits, maybe balance the microwave with the washer, but the rest of the big loads are all 240 so I don't see how a typical resi panel can be that out of balance.

danielplace · Jan 26, 2020

Just in one the other day. Tiny 100 amp service feeding panel with aluminum SE. Panel had a 5 to 20 amp load on one leg and 40 to 60 amps on the other and I was checking them every 15 minutes throughout the day while doing other work. This was with no 240 loads included because I turned them off and was only looking at 120 loads. The reason was which I ended up refusing to do is they wanted to put a tankless water on this tiny 100 amp service. I did move loads arounds and got and even 25 to 40 amp load on each phase better balancing the panel and reducing the neutral load to almost nothing. It had all two wire home runs and extra wire to move around a little and didn't really have to move but only two circuits. Neutral load went from 25 to 40 amps before and reduced it to 2 or 3 amps. I was trying to have the same left over on each leg so we could run the tankless water heater but it would never work. I didn't want to be tripping mains which is what it would have done.

Just by chance stuff pulling all the power can end up on the same phase and other one almost idle.

Not something I normally waste my time with unless there is a reason too. I always check the load though if I have just repaired a service.

bigb · Jan 26, 2020

40 to 60 amps on a residence with no 240 loads connected is hard to believe, especially one with a 100 amp service. What could they possible be running all day to amount to that much? The only thing I can come up with is space heaters or window shakers.

Insaneride · Jan 26, 2020

Single phase is single phase is single phase in residential. In the US, a single phase transformer is center tapped for 122volts. Using the whole transformer supplies 244volts but this is still same phase. In a two phase system, to supplies or transformers deliver electricity 90* out of phase. In a triple phase system, electricity is delivered 120* out of phase or approximately 5.5 milli seconds out of phase.

There is no opposite phase in a single phase residential panel. There is an opposite bus bar and a neutral connected to center tap of transformer.

vdotmatrix · Jan 27, 2020

All done . Thanks for all the responses and much needed help.

danielplace · Jan 28, 2020

Awesome man. Welder breaker is in place.

The only thing you could do better but no need to really.

That is drop every breaker two spaces on the right side and put welder breaker at the top close to the end that the buss is fed from.

vdotmatrix · Jan 28, 2020

I almost did that!&#55358;&#56611;

danielplace said:
Awesome man. Welder breaker is in place.

The only thing you could do better but no need to really.

That is drop every breaker two spaces on the right side and put welder breaker at the top close to the end that the buss is fed from.

Willie B · Jan 29, 2020

Put it where you choose. A bus bar is rated for the main breaker. The main will produce heat, each breaker under load will make heat. There is as compelling an argument to spread out heat sources for better heat dissipation.

For alternative power sources (EX: solar) we are required to feed into the opposite end of buss bar. A 100 amp residential panel can accept up to 20 amps of solar power. A 100 amp buss will be receiving 120 amps. If inputs are on opposite ends it minimizes the risk of heating.

Throughout electrical physics it isn't the conductor that gets hot from current, it is always the connections. No value in grouping the connections that are likely to heat.

50 years, I've not yet seen a Square D QO series breaker fail at the buss bar grip unless it was exposed to bad conditions. They fail if wet, exposed to corrosive conditions, or vibration. Most other varieties fail without extreme circumstances.

ronsii · Jan 29, 2020

Willie B said:
Put it where you choose. A bus bar is rated for the main breaker. The main will produce heat, each breaker under load will make heat. There is as compelling an argument to spread out heat sources for better heat dissipation.

For alternative power sources (EX: solar) we are required to feed into the opposite end of buss bar. A 100 amp residential panel can accept up to 20 amps of solar power. A 100 amp buss will be receiving 120 amps. If inputs are on opposite ends it minimizes the risk of heating.

Throughout electrical physics it isn't the conductor that gets hot from current, it is always the connections. No value in grouping the connections that are likely to heat.

50 years, I've not yet seen a Square D QO series breaker fail at the buss bar grip unless it was exposed to bad conditions. They fail if wet, exposed to corrosive conditions, or vibration. Most other varieties fail without extreme circumstances.

It's funny you mention the connections getting hot

of course I knew this but for some reason I always put all the high loads grouped at the top(near feed)... never even thought about the real reason for heat just figured it in a 'conductor size' relationship for placement... I may have to rethink my placements when populating panels from now on

Thanks Willie

Pulled a permit to run 220v 40a circuit on 8-3 romex for an ALPHATIG 201XD

danielplace

vdotmatrix

danielplace

vdotmatrix

danielplace

vdotmatrix

bigb

danielplace

bigb

Insaneride

vdotmatrix

danielplace

vdotmatrix

Willie B

ronsii

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