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  1. #26
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    Re: Acetelyne explosion?

    That is one reason that it a good practice to always cut the cylinder off, drain the torch and hose, everytime you finish with the cylinder. Then no one will get hurt. John
    SMAW,GMAW,FCAW,GTAW,SAW,PAC/PAW/OFC
    and Shielding Gases. There all here.


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  2. #27
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    Re: Acetelyne explosion?

    Even though two experts in acetylene handling that have both over thirty years declared it empty. I had checked it anyway.
    That pretty much says enough for me, William.

  3. #28
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    Re: Acetelyne explosion?

    Quote Originally Posted by TEK
    I agree with Sandy and most of you cold country guys know it too. I have used acety at 14 deg Far. and it worked just fine. Wild Bill is gonna get somebody hurt . Use more caution reading his posts than you do using acetylene.....

    You are talking about something you do not understand. I have actually had this happen to me. No doubts about it.

    Our area barely goes down to minus seven but once or twice a year. They may use more acetone to reduce tank pressure in our normally hot and humid climate. Now comes that minus seven degree day and we do not get acetylene after an initial quick boil off that cools the tank right down to zero output by human preception.

    When you find out I am right and Senators will not even address this, maybe you will take an equally rude attitude towards them as well? And to the many great scholars that have not warned you like I have.


    Sincerely,


    William McCormick

  4. #29
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    Re: Acetelyne explosion?


  5. #30
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    Re: Acetelyne explosion?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sandy
    That pretty much says enough for me, William.
    So how much does running the torch for sixty seconds in a cold windy alley cool off the tank then?

    I never claimed the temperature of acetylene or the temperature of acetone was anything. Experts assumed that I did. I just described an actuality.

    I claimed exactly what I claimed and I am right because I was there.


    Sincerely,


    William McCormick

  6. #31
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    Re: Acetelyne explosion?

    Quote Originally Posted by tresi
    You probably won't find anybody living that has experience using acetylene at pressures above 15 psi. Yes it really can explode if you try to light it at high pressures.
    It happens all the time, when you cut a lot. Because the day before it was cold you up the pressure to about seven pounds. Then the next day the torch is out in the sun for a while and up pops the pressure.

    I have cut for a whole day after lunch, not knowing that the guy that went to shut off the tanks actually turned up the regulators. Then I go over and check the tanks and shut them. The guy was someone that should know better.

    The acetylene at those red pressures with air or oxygen in the hose can go boom. And to be honest with oxygen in the hose, it can go boom from sound waves. Pure acetylene is about as dangerous as hydrogen from my experience. It will not self ignite if pure.

    But who can say what is in the hoses. Often there is carbon and carbon can have oxygen or hydrogen attached to it, or both in the case of water vapor.

    That is the danger. Not the pressure. Any pressure can cause it.


    Sincerely,


    William McCormick

  7. #32
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    Re: Acetelyne explosion?

    Quote Originally Posted by DDA52

    We don't have those problems, here in Texas because when it gets to 50 degrees, the coats come out. OK? John
    SMAW,GMAW,FCAW,GTAW,SAW,PAC/PAW/OFC
    and Shielding Gases. There all here.


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  8. #33
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    Re: Acetelyne explosion?

    Quote Originally Posted by William McCormick Jr
    Because in the cold the tanks lose pressure. And you have to compensate by decreasing the pressure the regulator diaphragm keeps against the tank pressure. On a hot day it would be way over thirty pounds.

    Sincerely,


    William McCormick
    Are you saying you must adjust the regulator all the time? If so BS I can set the reg and never touch it till it empty. We had a work platform we hauled on the front of a JD544 wheel loader and on so mand ocasions you could not see or adjust the regs from ice. If we could get the tanks open they worked fine. I remember right before I quite and moved here it was +1 with a -25 wind chill and we had to go cut some scrap and I used 2 or 3 bottles that were stored out side and the worked fine.
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  9. #34
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    Re: Acetelyne explosion?

    Quote Originally Posted by weldgault
    That is one reason that it a good practice to always cut the cylinder off, drain the torch and hose, everytime you finish with the cylinder. Then no one will get hurt. John
    Not necessarily.

    Shutting the main tank great.

    Draining the hoses completely is not feasible without flushing them. And if you leave the torch valves open all night you risk letting water vapor into the hoses. Water vapor and acetylene make explosives. The carbon from a few backfires is usually the medium for the water to grab hold.

    Now you come out and hit the hoses and torch with 7-30 pounds of pressure and it could pop, or boom.

    I like to creep my valves open. I mean slowly. I have never lost a hose, I had never even had a check valve till recently. Some say check valves do not work, by actual detonation of the hoses.

    If you drain the pressure from the hoses, you also risk pulling water vapor by the creation of a vacuum as the torch cools.

    I have had many years of zero torch accidents.

    Only when I fool around on the Forth of July do I get into trouble.


    Sincerely,


    William McCormick

  10. #35
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    Re: Acetelyne explosion?

    Quote Originally Posted by offrdfun73
    Are you saying you must adjust the regulator all the time? If so BS I can set the reg and never touch it till it empty. We had a work platform we hauled on the front of a JD544 wheel loader and on so mand ocasions you could not see or adjust the regs from ice. If we could get the tanks open they worked fine. I remember right before I quite and moved here it was +1 with a -25 wind chill and we had to go cut some scrap and I used 2 or 3 bottles that were stored out side and the worked fine.
    You might be using non-dissolved acetylene. Most around here use dissolved acetylene.

    Sincerely,


    William McCormick

  11. #36
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    Re: Acetelyne explosion?

    I never touch my regulator either while I am working, but have gone over to find it high or low.

    Because I just make the changes at the torch and do not adjust the regulator. But if I see it high I like to knock it down.

    Sincerely,


    William McCormick

  12. #37
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    Re: Acetelyne explosion?

    The correct way to adjust a torch or Tip is adjust the flame frome the regulators and the tip will get enough (volume) not pressure, to run the tip. If your adjust from the valves, you choke off the volume the regulator can supply. That is the correct way, but it has been as you say for years and the correct way has not been adopted in the 45 years, I know of. John
    SMAW,GMAW,FCAW,GTAW,SAW,PAC/PAW/OFC
    and Shielding Gases. There all here.


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  13. #38
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    Re: Acetelyne explosion?

    Quote Originally Posted by offrdfun73
    Are you saying you must adjust the regulator all the time? If so BS I can set the reg and never touch it till it empty. We had a work platform we hauled on the front of a JD544 wheel loader and on so mand ocasions you could not see or adjust the regs from ice. If we could get the tanks open they worked fine. I remember right before I quite and moved here it was +1 with a -25 wind chill and we had to go cut some scrap and I used 2 or 3 bottles that were stored out side and the worked fine.

    Undissolved pure acetylene can be a problem. Because it does not absorb as much energy as it leaves the tank, very quickly under much more pressure.

    It was estimated that ninety large commercial tanks of undissolved acetylene in a coliseum or closed in stadium opened drained and detonated would end the world as we know it. By smaller experiments.

    This was part of the Armies Green Beret Training long passed. Ten well trained men in theory can enter an industrial country and destroy the country without bringing any weapons.

    With time dissolved acetylene might in a tight stadium do the same. Usually though there is ventilation.

    It is not known if tanks of undissolved acetylene would or could burst accidentally and simultaneously and can cause a similar accident. It is believed possible.



    Sincerely,


    William McCormick

  14. #39
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    Re: Acetelyne explosion?

    Computer error duplicate post deleted.

    Sincerely,


    William McCormick

  15. #40
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    Re: Acetelyne explosion?

    Computer error duplicate post deleted.

    Sincerely,


    William McCormick
    Last edited by William McCormick Jr; 12-19-2007 at 11:42 PM.

  16. #41
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    Re: Acetelyne explosion?

    For years I have held safety demo's on the safe handeling of oxy/acteylene and used a 2 oz cup with a hole in the top to introduce un lit mixed gas and then lit the torch and passed the torch across the cup and have blown out windows and scared a lot of people to soiled pants. IT IS VERY DANGEROUS. John
    SMAW,GMAW,FCAW,GTAW,SAW,PAC/PAW/OFC
    and Shielding Gases. There all here.


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  17. #42
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    Re: Acetelyne explosion?

    Just in case this was missed:

    Acetylene (C2H2)
    Molecular weight 26 amu
    Freezing point -81.8 C
    Boiling point 84 C

    John
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  18. #43
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    Re: Acetelyne explosion?

    Thank you John. Those with an open mind, and open eyes, that still do not know it all, appreciate that info.....

  19. #44
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    Re: Acetelyne explosion?

    Quote Originally Posted by weldgault
    For years I have held safety demo's on the safe handeling of oxy/acteylene and used a 2 oz cup with a hole in the top to introduce un lit mixed gas and then lit the torch and passed the torch across the cup and have blown out windows and scared a lot of people to soiled pants. IT IS VERY DANGEROUS. John
    I know a guy Rock and Roll Al, he has been on the Internet for years and years. He is pretty popular, he even made it into Wikipedia. I believe he works in a defense plant. I believe he just moved to the state of Washington.

    He always hated, that no matter what subject we started off at we always ended up at explosives or some sort of doomsday device. But when I made a movie of oxygen and acetylene exploding. He really woke up on the right side of the bed, and recalled the excitement of his younger days in shop class, with the teacher detonating a balloon right in the middle of the classroom.

    He believed that everyone should see it once before using it.

    I know that it took away some of the nervous questions I had. After I saw it, I knew I could always get blown up. Ha-ha. No need to worry about could I get blown up anymore.

    http://www.rockwelder.com/Explosives/blast2.wmv


    That bag was the size of a basketball. A bag of well mixed oxygen and acetylene.

    After my mishap with the bag going off in my hands some years ago. I put in the oxygen first, get the bag all separated for static, and then add the 35 percent acetylene. It was a very humid day, it may have needed a bit more acetylene on a humid day. The first two bags went with to much of a harmless crackle. Very little difference in the mix.

    You may have caught that purple or lavender streak heading towards the bag before it exploded. That is ambient radiation being slowed by the extreme voltage just before the blast. I was able to catch it with a rather inexpensive camera. The camera was damaged but I managed to get the video of the explosion.

    You can also feel the pressure on your back before the explosion. It is really scary to feel it. You are to afraid to look away from the bomb you just set off. Ha-ha. You also lose hearing right before the blast. You get a maddening high pitched sound in your ears. That makes the blast seem that much more powerful and loud when it does go off.

    But you can see in the movie things and feelings were hurt. Ha-ha. It broke a very heavy old fashioned flower pot. Almost a half inch thick. It bent a large "C" clamp that was holding a piece of metal. It bent the metal that was free to fly. It is nothing to fool with. I have no doubt this gas can pick up metal and hurl it at munitions speed.





    Sincerely,


    William McCormick

  20. #45
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    Re: Acetelyne explosion?

    Quote Originally Posted by William McCormick Jr
    ...Pure acetylene is about as dangerous as hydrogen from my experience. It will not self ignite if pure.
    Mr. McCormick,

    I am just completely astounded everytime you post your misinformation. First, by the fact that you have not eliminated yourself from the gene pool yet and secondly that you have not killed anyone else.

    Quote Originally Posted by General Monitors
    Acetylene is colorless and odorless in its pure state, lighter than air and highly flammable. Its low LFL and wide flammability range make it extremely easy to ignite. Acetylene is unique in that it does not have a UEL. It is able to support its own combustion without oxygen, and can spontaneously ignite by itself. In the presence of moisture, acetylene can react with copper, silver and mercury to form metallic acetylides that are shock-sensitive, explosive compounds. This presents special hazards in regards to its safe handling.
    http://www.generalmonitors.com/quick...find_gas5.html

    Quote Originally Posted by per BOC's MSDS
    The UEL of Acetylene is 80-85% below 15 psig and above 15 psig its UEL is 100%
    http://zenstoves.net/MSDS/Acetylene.pdf

    http://www.msha.gov/alerts/hazardsofacetylene.htm

    Cylinder Safety!

    A compressed gas cylinder valve should be secured (closed) when not in use, whether a regulator is attached or not.

    If a cylinder is not being used for more than one shift the regulators should be removed and the safety (shipping) caps should be secured to protect the valve.

    When you are done using compressed gases the main valves should be secured closed and all residual pressure be relieved from regulators, hoses and torches. All regulator valve stems be backed off and all torch valves secured (closed.)

    Not doing any of the above at any time is dangerous!!!
    Ron

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  21. #46
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    Re: Acetelyne explosion?

    MicroZone,

    Quick correction on your post #42 above. You typo'd some of the data about acetylene. You have the right data in your post #22 on page one of this thread.

    Physical properties of acetylene:

    Melting point : -84 C
    Boiling point : -83.8 C

    Flammability limits for acetylene in air are approx 3% to 82%. So a very wide range there.

    An acetylene has a very low energy level needed for ignition. Simple static electricity sparks often have enough energy to ignite an acetylene mixture.

    Acetylene is unstable under pressure, and thus is stored and shipped dissolved in acetone. The melting point for acetone is -94.9 C.

    Between the acetone melting point (the temperature below which the acetone will turn into a solid) and the boiling point of acetylene (the temperature at which acetylene can be a gas or a liquid, we typically care about the gas phase of acetylene), it is all really-really-really cold. I do not know what the melting point of acetylene dissolved in acetone is, but I'm sure it is also really-really cold.

    Pure acetylene is listed as odorless, the characteristic garlic odor in welding-grade acetylene is from impurities.

    Acetylene is not a toy or a plaything!

    disclaimer: I have done stupid and/or dangerous things in the past. Probably will do more still. But I have all my body parts and they still work, I think with some luck and an on-the-ball guardian angel. Acetylene was not involved.

  22. #47
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    Re: Acetelyne explosion?

    Quote Originally Posted by MoonRise
    MicroZone,

    Quick correction on your post #42 above. You typo'd some of the data about acetylene. You have the right data in your post #22 on page one of this thread.

    Physical properties of acetylene:

    Melting point : -84 C
    Boiling point : -83.8 C

    Flammability limits for acetylene in air are approx 3% to 82%. So a very wide range there.

    An acetylene has a very low energy level needed for ignition. Simple static electricity sparks often have enough energy to ignite an acetylene mixture.

    Acetylene is unstable under pressure, and thus is stored and shipped dissolved in acetone. The melting point for acetone is -94.9 C.

    Between the acetone melting point (the temperature below which the acetone will turn into a solid) and the boiling point of acetylene (the temperature at which acetylene can be a gas or a liquid, we typically care about the gas phase of acetylene), it is all really-really-really cold. I do not know what the melting point of acetylene dissolved in acetone is, but I'm sure it is also really-really cold.

    Pure acetylene is listed as odorless, the characteristic garlic odor in welding-grade acetylene is from impurities.

    Acetylene is not a toy or a plaything!

    disclaimer: I have done stupid and/or dangerous things in the past. Probably will do more still. But I have all my body parts and they still work, I think with some luck and an on-the-ball guardian angel. Acetylene was not involved.

    Most of that is true. Except for saying that acetylene is unstable under pressure. It is not unstable in its pure state. It is highly stable actually just like hydrogen. It is in a bottle under high pressure.

    Today I would be the first to say that there might be contamination in our equipment and supplies. So in that sense yes I agree.

    Under pressure if you do not purge your regulator of air, it can detonate. Every time you put your regulator on you are supposed to leave the connection cracked loose. Then crack the valve till you see a needle movement, close, and let that small amount purge the regulator.

    You are supposed to do that with all high pressure cylinders. In case there is some debris, it will not shoot into your regulator. Sometimes blowing it up.

    If there is something that might detonate it might give you warning. Or help relieve pressure. But you should see it done to understand how tight or loose the connection should be.

    I had something shoot once while opening a valve. Scared the heck out of me. Years ago in the gas house they would crack the cylinder once before they give it to you. They had just filled the bottles they knew they were full.

    You are actually supposed to purge three times, but lets be real no one cares that much. Most have never seen it done so they do not even know if it is real or feasible. I do it with my high pressure tanks all the time. Especially the 98/2 Argon/Oxygen.

    But since this sounds crazy they just omit this operation.

    We had an incident years ago where the driver of a propane truck lit his truck on fire after it rolled over. As all good hazardous tank drivers are taught to do if you cannot plug it. He could not plug the hole with the wooden stake kit. It was leaking to much. So he got way back and tossed his road flare.

    The psychiatrists claimed he was crazy, and claimed others that said the same were also crazy. The psychiatrists cannot face what it takes to handle safely all these dangerous chemicals.

    But for proof that acetylene does not just explode, every time you turn on the tank to an un- pressurized regulator. Acetylene is going from zero to a couple hundred pounds. Certainly at pressures way over 15 psi. And most do not purge their regulators.

    You keep the pressure low in the hoses, in case there is air or carbon and water in the hoses. If I have not used a setup for a long while I will open the acetylene valve on the the torch and then open the acetylene tank to purge the hose. Then I do the same for the oxygen.

    I once broke the neck off a large full bottle of acetylene in a shop I was working in. It just blows a fog like mist straight up about twenty feet. Onto the buzzing fluorescent lights. You just tell the guys you are working with not to shut anything off and walk quietly out of the shop.

    A large piece of metal behind the shear, had fallen and caused a Rub-Gold berg reaction that chopped the neck off the tank. So again we know that you can release it at a bit over fifteen pounds per square inch and it will not definitely explode.



    Sincerely,


    William McCormick

  23. #48
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    Re: Acetelyne explosion?

    Quote Originally Posted by William McCormick Jr
    We had an incident years ago where the driver of a propane truck lit his truck on fire after it rolled over. As all good hazardous tank drivers are taught to do if you cannot plug it. He could not plug the hole with the wooden stake kit. It was leaking to much. So he got way back and tossed his road flare.

    Sincerely,


    William McCormick

    WHAT ?! You're saying Propane truck drivers are taught this?

    John
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  24. #49
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    Re: Acetelyne explosion?

    Quote Originally Posted by MicroZone
    WHAT ?! You're saying Propane truck drivers are taught this?

    I've seen this too. The propane burning as it leaves the tank is way better than pooling up somewhere.


    I'm not too sure I'd want to go strike a lighter next to a leaxing tank though.
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  25. #50
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    Re: Acetelyne explosion?

    I will have to see this in writing, before I'd believe it. John
    SMAW,GMAW,FCAW,GTAW,SAW,PAC/PAW/OFC
    and Shielding Gases. There all here.


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