All About: Independent Amplitude and advanced waveform controls
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  1. #1
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    All About: Independent Amplitude and advanced waveform controls

    Some discussion popped up about this recently, but it really was not related to the thread topic and thus will probably disappear into obscurity. I found the topic interesting so a dedicated thread seemed like a good idea. So please share your expertise of how Independent Amplitude and other advanced waveform controls work, situations that you use any of these, specific machine settings, ideas on where one or more of these may be beneficial (Brainstorming), and of course any questions. I just had a chance to use the Everlast "Advanced AC pulse" that I'll explain more later. Multiple manufacturers like Miller, HTP etc offer independent amplitude adjustment. I believe Kemppi and Fronius also have some specialized waveforms. Would like to hear more about those too. Unlike the other thread, hopefully this will not be a competition or bashing thread on which is better, but an informative resource for folks trying to learn how to best utilize their respective machines. Explanation and use of square, soft square, triangular etc will fit here too.
    Maybe a list of what machines have which advanced waveforms might be handy as well.
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    Re: All About: Independent Amplitude and advanced waveform controls

    Here's a thread I started on amplitude adjustment. If this thread becomes a sticky, it might be good to link other threads with info in this thread.

    http://weldingweb.com/showthread.php...nd-EP-amperage
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    Re: All About: Independent Amplitude and advanced waveform controls

    And yeah, I second the idea of the moderators keeping this thread "sanitized" and free of any brand competition/country of origin garbage.
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    Re: All About: Independent Amplitude and advanced waveform controls

    Quote Originally Posted by zank View Post
    Here's a thread I started on amplitude adjustment. If this thread becomes a sticky, it might be good to link other threads with info in this thread.

    http://weldingweb.com/showthread.php...nd-EP-amperage
    I reread that thread. I have to admit when I first read it I went cross-eyed. Took me a while to fathom, then tried it.

    It works, good job.
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    Re: All About: Independent Amplitude and advanced waveform controls

    Yeah, we will keep an eye on it.

    All that stuff is way above my pay grade. Default settings do the job fine for me.

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    Re: All About: Independent Amplitude and advanced waveform controls

    I have used it a lot
    About 99% of people don't know how to use it and don't need to use it
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    Re: All About: Independent Amplitude and advanced waveform controls

    Quote Originally Posted by zank View Post
    . If this thread becomes a sticky.....
    It is now...

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    Re: All About: Independent Amplitude and advanced waveform controls

    Quote Originally Posted by Gamble View Post
    I have used it a lot
    About 99% of people don't know how to use it and don't need to use it
    I guess I fall into the half-of-one percent, since I know how to use it, but I don't need to use it . Sure is cool to see the differences at the weld joint and at the tungsten tip.
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    Re: All About: Independent Amplitude and advanced waveform controls

    Quote Originally Posted by Gamble View Post
    I have used it a lot
    About 99% of people don't know how to use it and don't need to use it
    So how about sharing your settings, what you use it for and what benefits you see when using it. (That was the idea here). Help out those "99%"
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    Re: All About: Independent Amplitude and advanced waveform controls

    Quote Originally Posted by Oscar View Post
    I guess I fall into the half-of-one percent, since I know how to use it, but I don't need to use it . Sure is cool to see the differences at the weld joint and at the tungsten tip.
    Yeah, you're in that "half percent" group there , Oscar

    Really tho, I need to take some time and do some playing around. Terry sent me some settings awhile back to experiment with. Being I hardly weld aluminum, it's usually not a factor in what I do. The benefits are endless tho.

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    Re: All About: Independent Amplitude and advanced waveform controls

    im eagerly watching this one. not that i weld aluminum often, the only real experience i have is in shop with a big ol lincoln square wave that I never messed with settings on too much.

    but now, in field, i occasionally run into an aluminum coil that needs flanges welded on or the dreaded tube repair. i have only attempted with dynasty's and the setup and options scare the crap out of me so i usually just run default. i know i could do better if i knew what i was doing with those more flexible machines
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    Re: All About: Independent Amplitude and advanced waveform controls

    OK Southpaw, here are a couple of things that I have observed and had work for me: If you have a variable HZ choice the lower HZ settings have assisted me with welding on "dirty" aluminum castings and materials that I have chosen to be lazy about cleaning, I'm speaking in the 20 to 40hz range. I believe that the cycling of the +/- current at this setting "agitates" the weld pool more and this also provides for a longer duration on the DC+ cycle promoting more cleaning action in the arc. Additionally, I might set the balance towards the cleaning side (+) as much as I can. With these types of settings, choice of tungsten type can be very important as the tip of the tungsten will look as if it is doing an Irish Jig. I have not experimented much with many types of tungstens and have generally used Ceriated tungsten when I have done this.

    Generally, when I have used the elevated HZ settings it has been to provide for more energy in the weld pool (think in terms of thick materials), focuses the arc better and allows for higher travel speeds. Additionally, I have set the balance as far towards the (-) setting as I can and still have proper cleaning (if you get too much -/negative you'll see impurities in the puddle and resulting weld deposit and the bead will likely not wet-out too well). In this instance as well, I have not used a lot of different types of tungstens, mainly Ceriated here as well. With all of this I am basing these details when welding is performed on properly cleaned materials, if you are dealing with excessive oxidation or older/dirtier materials some of these details might not work so well.

    I have always found that personal experimentation based on suggested settings.... and adjustments to those to meet personal needs is a must. So if you don't have a particular tungsten type that others have suggested, experiment and see what comes of it. Many of us might not have access to metallurgical testing equipment, but I'd say just about everyone has a hammer, vise, anvil, or other equipment/tools that we can do some destructive testing of our own with. You can also cut, grind, polish, and etch with some simple home type acids to test your results. The brain's a bit foggy right now and I am far away from the shop to consider including additional information right now. Best regards, Allan

    PS. as to waveforms and such I only have used an older Thermal Arc 300 GTSW Inverter and the similar but less powerful 185 GTSW, yep, old school (no special waveforms and such, variable HZ and a few other bells), Also have a couple of Miller Dynasty 350's, but I haven't played enough with the 5 different waveforms and other features to make useful comments here as of yet. Have had limited experience with the Dynasty 200 as well.
    Last edited by aevald; 01-08-2016 at 11:26 PM. Reason: more info
    aevald

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    Re: All About: Independent Amplitude and advanced waveform controls

    Quote Originally Posted by aevald View Post
    OK Southpaw, here are a couple of things that I have observed and had work for me: If you have a variable HZ choice the lower HZ settings have assisted me with welding on "dirty" aluminum castings and materials that I have chosen to be lazy about cleaning, I'm speaking in the 20 to 40hz range. I believe that the cycling of the +/- current at this setting "agitates" the weld pool more and this also provides for a longer duration on the DC+ cycle promoting more cleaning action in the arc. Additionally, I might set the balance towards the cleaning side (+) as much as I can. With these types of settings, choice of tungsten type can be very important as the tip of the tungsten will look as if it is doing an Irish Jig. I have not experimented much with many types of tungstens and have generally used Ceriated tungsten when I have done this.

    Generally, when I have used the elevated HZ settings it has been to provide for more energy in the weld pool (think in terms of thick materials), focuses the arc better and allows for higher travel speeds. Additionally, I have set the balance as far towards the (-) setting as I can and still have proper cleaning (if you get too much -/negative you'll see impurities in the puddle and resulting weld deposit and the bead will likely not wet-out too well). In this instance as well, I have not used a lot of different types of tungstens, mainly Ceriated here as well. With all of this I am basing these details when welding is performed on properly cleaned materials, if you are dealing with excessive oxidation or older/dirtier materials some of these details might not work so well.

    I have always found that personal experimentation based on suggested settings.... and adjustments to those to meet personal needs is a must. So if you don't have a particular tungsten type that others have suggested, experiment and see what comes of it. Many of us might not have access to metallurgical testing equipment, but I'd say just about everyone has a hammer, vise, anvil, or other equipment/tools that we can do some destructive testing of our own with. You can also cut, grind, polish, and etch with some simple home type acids to test your results. The brain's a bit foggy right now and I am far away from the shop to consider including additional information right now. Best regards, Allan

    PS. as to waveforms and such I only have used an older Thermal Arc 300 GTSW Inverter and the similar but less powerful 185 GTSW, yep, old school (no special waveforms and such, variable HZ and a few other bells), Also have a couple of Miller Dynasty 350's, but I haven't played enough with the 5 different waveforms and other features to make useful comments here as of yet. Have had limited experience with the Dynasty 200 as well.
    I think you are confused....
    Quote Originally Posted by soutthpaw View Post
    So how about sharing your settings, what you use it for and what benefits you see when using it. (That was the idea here). Help out those "99%"
    Yes now that I have a few minutes to spare. I'll be brief

    This is all in my personal opinion

    It's a cool feature, no doubt. Is it needed? Nah not really.
    What does it exactly do? In the simplest form, it's more of a finite control over your balance.
    Where will it shine? It can make your life a lot easier or harder if you don't know exactly how to set it or which to change. In my opinion it will really shine when you are doing something thicker than your machine can normally do. Or something that is filthy dirty.
    For thicker material you would basically just turn your electrode position down. The AC cycle spends more time on the penetration side of the waveform giving you more punch. Less heat into the tungsten and more heat into the work piece.
    On the flip side if you are welding something dirty (cast aluminum or pot metal is a great example) you set the electrode neg to be less than the positive to spend more time on the cleaning side.
    I had a job walk through the door. It was some 60 year old cast part that would hold bags of dog food in place while they were filled. I'm sure it saw a lot of dirt over the years. Was never cleaned. Customer drilled a hole in it and punched a 1" aluminum slug in there and wanted it welded on both sides (2 or 3 slugs)
    The part was thick but the machine had plenty of amperage to handle it. So simply turned the penetration down to allow for more cleaning. Over 200amps at my disposal. And a small crappy 1" wire brush. The entire job was probably about 20 minutes. I got the cleanest, most beautiful looking welds of my life. Welded like it was brand new, cleaned and brushed aluminum.

    Now on the other side. You need to keep in mind. Yes you have control over the Positive and Negative. However you ONLY adjust one of those sides. It's counter productive to adjust both.
    You also don't or can't set either side to be at 100% on one side of the cycle. That wouldn't be an AC sine wave.

    90% of what I do is aluminum. I have no need for it. If 90% of what I did was cast aluminum like transmission cases and things like that. It would be very useful feature. Or if you needed more amperage and didn't have helium. Again a very useful feature. For the average guy it's really not needed. And if you don't know what you are adjusting you will be chasing your tail trying to figure out why you can't get a good weld or a weld at all.

    You can also use it to keep cleaning to a minimum to not have to grind your tungsten as often. If you like the smaller diameter ones.

    That is it in it's simplest form in my opinion. A very cool feature to play with, but it's nothing I would go out and spend an extra $500 on for it. I also have to say that I've only used it on 1 waveform. So I can't comment on how different it is with other waveforms.
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    Re: All About: Independent Amplitude and advanced waveform controls

    Ok Gamble, I'll try to simplify: the HZ number is based on a specific length of time, within this time limit a higher HZ setting will provide for a greater number of (-) and (+) bursts of energy. It is also proven to focus the arc column into a smaller focal point, thus concentrating heat.

    With the lower HZ setting you have a lesser number of (-) and (+) bursts of energy. The focus of the arc column is also broadened and affects a wider/larger area.

    In addition to the characteristics provided by HZ adjustability you have the effect of the adjustment of the arc balance, more (-) will yield more heat and penetration to be delivered to the base material. The opposite is true when you shift the balance to the (+) side of the balance. In this scenario you will concentrate more heat on the tungsten and less on the parent material, but you will also provide more cleaning action on the surface of the base material through the cleaning action of the (+) side of the arc.

    Now back to my original statements: increasing arc balance to the (-) side and increasing HZ will provide for more time on the (-) side of the energy being delivered and a focus of this energy into a smaller area. Hence more useable arc energy for welding thicker, cleaner materials.

    Increasing the arc balance to the (+) side and decreasing HZ will provide for more time on the (+) side of the arc balance and also increase the length of time that each shift in phase occurs generally resulting in more cleaning action that is useable for welding on dirty materials.

    So in essence I'll agree to disagree with your position. Best regards, Allan
    aevald

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    Re: All About: Independent Amplitude and advanced waveform controls

    Quote Originally Posted by aevald View Post
    Ok Gamble, I'll try to simplify: the HZ number is based on a specific length of time, within this time limit a higher HZ setting will provide for a greater number of (-) and (+) bursts of energy. It is also proven to focus the arc column into a smaller focal point, thus concentrating heat.

    With the lower HZ setting you have a lesser number of (-) and (+) bursts of energy. The focus of the arc column is also broadened and affects a wider/larger area.

    In addition to the characteristics provided by HZ adjustability you have the effect of the adjustment of the arc balance, more (-) will yield more heat and penetration to be delivered to the base material. The opposite is true when you shift the balance to the (+) side of the balance. In this scenario you will concentrate more heat on the tungsten and less on the parent material, but you will also provide more cleaning action on the surface of the base material through the cleaning action of the (+) side of the arc.

    Now back to my original statements: increasing arc balance to the (-) side and increasing HZ will provide for more time on the (-) side of the energy being delivered and a focus of this energy into a smaller area. Hence more useable arc energy for welding thicker, cleaner materials.

    Increasing the arc balance to the (+) side and decreasing HZ will provide for more time on the (+) side of the arc balance and also increase the length of time that each shift in phase occurs generally resulting in more cleaning action that is useable for welding on dirty materials.

    So in essence I'll agree to disagree with your position. Best regards, Allan
    No, he's actually right. The ENTIRE purpose of this thread if specifically for independent amplitude control and waveform selection. It is not a general primer on the aspects of AC frequency nor AC balance. I assure you gamble knows everything that you said, as do I. No one is questioning the content of your information, but the context----we're not talking about explaining what AC freq/Bal are. Not sure why you would think it is.

    Gamble, I do have to correct you on this:
    Quote Originally Posted by Gamble
    The AC cycle spends more time on the penetration side of the waveform
    Perhaps you just used the wrong terminology, but altering the amplitudes does not accomplish that. It has nothing to do with "time"---that's what Balance controls. I know you're basing your info on the 221s settings which only allow you to a max of 90/10 split either way, but this is not with respect to time. The units for amplitude control are % of welding amperage, not %-of-AC-cycle. You can control one and not the other, which is why it need not add up to 100%, because it is not with respect to a complete AC cycle the way AC balance is.
    Last edited by Oscar; 01-09-2016 at 10:16 AM.
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    Re: All About: Independent Amplitude and advanced waveform controls

    Well, this devolved quickly.
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    Re: All About: Independent Amplitude and advanced waveform controls

    Ok, guess I'll have to clarify what this thread is for

    IT IS FOR SHARING FEATURES AND CHARACTERISTICS OF WAVE SHAPE AND AMPLITUDE SETTINGS USED ON ADVANCED INVERTER TIGS!!!!

    In example: What an individual user has used, tried or experimented with and its related outcome... Basically a thread where ppl can share and exchange ideas regarding machine setup with others so all can benefit from it..

    IT WAS NOT CREATED TO ARGUE THEORY, DEFINITIONS AND OPINIONS. IT SURE AS HELL WAS NOT CREATED TO BECOME A DICK SWINGING CONTEST EITHER.

    ANY FURTHER POSTS REVERTING TO SUCH WILL BE REMOVED.


    THANKS
    Last edited by 7A749; 01-09-2016 at 11:10 AM.

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    Re: All About: Independent Amplitude and advanced waveform controls

    Quote Originally Posted by Oscar View Post
    Gamble, I do have to correct you on this:


    Perhaps you just used the wrong terminology, but altering the amplitudes does not accomplish that. It has nothing to do with "time"---that's what Balance controls. I know you're basing your info on the 221s settings which only allow you to a max of 90/10 split either way, but this is not with respect to time. The units for amplitude control are % of welding amperage, not %-of-AC-cycle. You can control one and not the other, which is why it need not add up to 100%, because it is not with respect to a complete AC cycle the way AC balance is.
    How do you figure? If your wave looks like this, it's spending more "time" on one side vs the other side
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    Re: All About: Independent Amplitude and advanced waveform controls

    Quote Originally Posted by Gamble View Post
    How do you figure? If your wave looks like this, it's spending more "time" on one side vs the other side
    Easy. The vertical axis is not time. It is amperage. The horizontal axis is time. Which is why time is not affected (the width of the rectangles are the same, therefore there %-of-time is identical. Plots are no good without axis labels and units.

    Mods if you feel the need to delete all this info about theory, but if we agreed that most don't know what it is, then I think it is relevant. Obviously y'alls call. Won't hurt my feelings if all this info is gone.
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    Re: All About: Independent Amplitude and advanced waveform controls

    Quote Originally Posted by Oscar View Post
    Easy. The vertical axis is not time. It is amperage. The horizontal axis is time. Which is why time is not affected (the width of the rectangles are the same, therefore there %-of-time is identical. Plots are no good without axis labels and units.

    Mods if you feel the need to delete all this info about theory, but if we agreed that most don't know what it is, then I think it is relevant. Obviously y'alls call. Won't hurt my feelings if all this info is gone.
    Ah ok, I get you know.
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    Re: All About: Independent Amplitude and advanced waveform controls

    7A749, I know I get caught up with techno-babble, I'm sorry but it's just in my nature from my formal education.

    I promise though, I'll post up some good sample pictures along with settings of my HTP 221, since I know there are quite a few people here with this machine. Perhaps the Miller boys can do the same? Perhaps we can set-up identical coupon samples and showcase the features from the Miller-side of the equation and from the HTP side. I don't mind buying some aluminum just so we can have a good reference thread.
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    Re: All About: Independent Amplitude and advanced waveform controls

    Oh, no worries there Oscar. I just wanted to make sure the intention of the thread was crystal clear for anyone who may have not took the time to read it all and jumped in wanting to debate theory and argue opinions regarding their understanding of it.

    We all know how those discussions usually end up

    Technical info is great. You certainly know what you're talking about too. I guess my point was just that things stay on topic and not get dragged into an argument between differing opinions and understandings. Kinda like how trailer threads always end up eroding into a Dick swinging contest between two or more armchair engineers, arguing theory and hypothetical scenarios that are more or less completely irrelevant to the topic of discussion.

    Another example; the threads about wiring your own electrical service in your garage always end up turning into a five page debate between two electrical techies arguing application of building code, quantum theory and fears that the entire fabric of society will immediately collapse into a wormhole to the third dimension if the guy attempted to run his own wire and breaker box without an expert there to hold his hand and direct every single step they take..

    I think anyone reading this knows what I'm talking about. Good threads that get hijacked by ppl more concerned with technical definition, and looking smart before an Internet audience of strangers, rather than trusting that with a little common sense, such things are not too difficult.

    Hope that makes sense
    Last edited by 7A749; 01-09-2016 at 01:40 PM.

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    Re: All About: Independent Amplitude and advanced waveform controls

    Awesome, sounds good.

    Let's see which Miller hobbyist (or anyone) who has IND-AMP, also has time and money to setup purpose-built sample coupons so we can make identical (as much as possible) samples, using as many similar settings as possible that are shared between the two machines. Any other HTP user willing to volunteer in the name of knowledge? Obviously we can't compete with wave-form control since we don't have it, but hey it's only an HTP 221, not a Dynasty
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    Re: All About: Independent Amplitude and advanced waveform controls

    I can throw some samples in. It may be a bit since I got a few jobs going, but I would be willing to try different stuff and post the results. That stuff is pretty Greek to me besides the real basic principles.
    Last edited by 7A749; 01-09-2016 at 01:46 PM.

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    Re: All About: Independent Amplitude and advanced waveform controls

    OK folks, I generally don't aim to start a ***t storm with my posts. When I do reply and particularly with regard to specifics of applying settings to perform work, I also like to include logic and reasoning for doing so, hence the content of my first post. I will often "think out loud" when I type things out and that can further confuse an issue. Apparently I did "misinterpret" the context of this thread and include off-topic comments. I will try to stick to the questions/topics, as I don't intend to have a pissing match with anyone, that will not accomplish anything for anyone regardless of personal feelings. Best regards, Allan
    aevald

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