Question for those with structural knowledge

[bigb]

I am considering raising my 10 foot door height a bit for a travel trailer. I will hire this out as I am not a builder, and the appropriate permits will be obtained along with whatever the city will require from an engineer. The attached picture is from when the garage was being built about 7 years ago. The glulam is 5.5" X 15". There appears to be room to raise it 6" (up to the bottom of the ledger) which will give me 10 feet 6 inches of an opening which is close for the 10 foot 4" tall TT I am looking at and I wouldn't mind a bit more height. My question is, is it likely that a steel I beam could be used to replace the glulam that would be shorter in height but still offer the required support, giving me a few more inches of clearance? FYI the load on the LPI beams that now hang on the ledger is a flat roof deck with a hot mop roof and 1/2" OSB on the underside. The opening is 20 feet wide.

Just exploring my options before I proceed with the professionals.

[henry42]

If this were my project I'd pay a structural engineer for his time and get a properly sized beam computed. All too often mistakes get made with such calculations when done by architects. And I'd make that opening as high as you can so that you're not repeating this exercise again down the road.

[bigb]

If this were my project I'd pay a structural engineer for his time and get a properly sized beam computed. All too often mistakes get made with such calculations when done by architects. And I'd make that opening as high as you can so that you're not repeating this exercise again down the road.

If you carefully read my post that is exactly what I am doing. I just wanted to know if anyone could give me an educated guess as to what the engineer might be able to do since it will be a while and I am curious about how much height might be possible.

[henry42]

An 8" steel beam should easily handle the load if that's all you want to know. I've got one running across my garage, 25' span with much more weight on top of it. If I recall it weighs 33lb/ft. With wood blocking bolted into the web to keep it flush with the wood beams tied into it.

[John T]

The glulam is 5.5" X 15"

My question is, is it likely that a steel I beam could be used to replace the glulam that would be shorter in height but still offer the required support, giving me a few more inches of clearance? ..

See if you can get the specs on the glulam beam (what it will handle in weight) and then go with the shortest (height) steel beam to give you at least what the glulam does.

I'm sure you can gain quite a bit of room.

[Boostinjdm]

My first question is can you get a door to fit such an odd size?

How about a track that allows it to open fully?

If you're going with something like sliding barn doors, can the header and ledger be combined to get you up to about a 12' opening?

[Willie B]

Logically, you could use a wider I beam in place of a taller one. I too am not an engineer. Talk with an engineer. My steel dealer has a wall full of engineering degrees, maybe yours does.

Do watch out for engineers who aren't as smart as they think. My son has an apartment over his in law's garage. It was planned for a small deck running along the area above the garage doors 6' wide, 28' long. His father in law knows everything, so he asked an engineer to design brackets to support it in 5 places. Think of shelf brackets, only bigger. The engineer specified high strength steel. High strength is risky stuff to weld without special skills, and methods. My steel dealer thought it was all a bunch of BS. one size bigger in hot rolled gets you more strength, and no special skills to build. The estimated cost of these fancy brackets was prohibitive from a high end fabricator.

7 years later no brackets have been fabricated, no deck has been built, and the door to nowhere is referred to as a "mother in law door"

Willie

[bigb]

Yes I have already thought of that, seems like every engineer I've known likes to spec way overkill. Following John T's advice I came up with an I beam 10" tall which supports weight many times more than the wood glulam presently in place but the chart only allowed for 10" because of my 20 foot span. Even with that I can gain another 5 inches for a total of 11. Fortunately we do all of the electrical contracting for a local builder/re modeler who does first class work so I have the opportunity to use their people. They are so busy though it's tough to get to talk to anyone for any length of time right now.

As for the door concerns I have been assured that a door can be put together at any height, they just add sections to make it what is needed. The width is more of a standard but at 20 feet mine is commonly available.

[steve45]

I built a new patio on the back of my house a few years ago. Overall, it's 62' long, with a 6"-25# I-beam supported by (4) 3-1/2" square columns spaced about 20 feet apart. I don't remember what the calculated load was (got all that stuff filed away somewhere), but I remember the calculated deflection of the beam was less than 1/8". (Yes, I'm an engineer).

In your case, I wouldn't think the weight would be very much, EXCEPT if the flat roof collects a lot of rain water or snow. I see that you're in Arizona, so you may not get that much.

[bigb]

I built a new patio on the back of my house a few years ago. Overall, it's 62' long, with a 6"-25# I-beam supported by (4) 3-1/2" square columns spaced about 20 feet apart. I don't remember what the calculated load was (got all that stuff filed away somewhere), but I remember the calculated deflection of the beam was less than 1/8". (Yes, I'm an engineer).

In your case, I wouldn't think the weight would be very much, EXCEPT if the flat roof collects a lot of rain water or snow. I see that you're in Arizona, so you may not get that much.

A 6" beam would be nice.....I could have an 11 foot door

[Virgil5]

As I recall AC units on the top of a motorcoach are rather expensive as they impact tree limbs and overhead canopies.

There is also the proclivity of people to buy new campers, and those new campers to be higher, not to mention other things like "The camper fit in there so anything will".

Add in the cost of roof repairs, both motorcoach and building.

KISS- put the beam on top of the roof and hang the roof from the beam.
It gives you maximum possible opening at a one time cost.
Add a few bucks for cosmetic concealment.

Ask yourself, "How many times a year do I look at the roof above the overhead door?"

[bigb]

As I recall AC units on the top of a motorcoach are rather expensive as they impact tree limbs and overhead canopies.
"

Yes they are...I remember the time Minute Lube bought me one. They had the entry door up all the way but pulled the exit door down a couple feet to block out the sun. oops.

[bigb]

I am no framing expert but an idea occurred to me, why can't the gluelam just be raised up all the way till it is behind the ledger giving me the full 21 extra inches? The ledger could be fastened right to the glulam. I mentioned it to 2 people in the trade so far and both said it is do-able. Maybe I am not as dumb as I look

PS It is important to mention an extension will be added to the front of the opening which will bump the front out 2-3 feet and house a roll up door in the top, so no need for any overhead door clearance on the existing ceiling.

[Boostinjdm]

Pretty sure that's what I said in post #6.

[bigb]

Pretty sure that's what I said in post #6.

Yes you did and now I am guilty of not reading through each post carefully Apologies for not seeing it and thanks at the same time

[Willie B]

"PS It is important to mention an extension will be added to the front of the opening which will bump the front out 2-3 feet and house a roll up door in the top, so no need for any overhead door clearance on the existing ceiling."

If that is the case, a flat plate could be quite tall, and thick as you choose bolted to the face of the opening on the outside. It'd reinforce the gluelam.

[Virgil5]

There is no need for discussion.
A professional with a Degree and a License will poke data into a computer and a design plan will be generated.

Professional Contractors will bid the job looking at both building and plan.
The low bidder will be selected.
He may actually show up after collecting the Deposit, more likely he'll move over the State line and spend the deposit on dope and Nike shoes.

Most likely the professional contractor will send a couple 19 year old dopers with claw hammers, the front of the building will be ripped apart, and the roof will collapse on the motorhome. Fire Department might show up, followed by Code Enforcement who will call in a contractor to fence the building for public safety and generate Citations for the property owner.

[Willie B]

I've worked with framing "contractors" my whole life. I've seen a few who go down to State Street in Rutland to hire a new crew every day. After a short time, these people disappear. 90% of the framers I've ever dealt with work time, and material.

Building owners looking for low bid contractors are gamblers. They hope to find someone too dumb to estimate cost, but smart enough to build it right.

If Bob, Jim, John, and Joe are all contractors, all NEED the job. Each will use his own formula to predict his cost to build. Each bid will reflect cost to build, and hoped profit. If bob wants $100,000, Jim wants $90,000, and John wants $80,000. Gambling homeowner chooses Joe, cause he bid $60,000.

Gambling homeowner ignores the likelihood that Joe dropped a zero somewhere in his calculation, or intends to cheat on specifications, or will use unskilled labor, maybe illegals, or goes to the local Turning Point, or whatever clever name the halfway house for addicts calls themselves. Despite the fact Joe has no past history locally, likely, will be bankrupt before the job is complete, Gambling Homeowner hopes to get something of value free. He rarely involves an engineer. He solicits bids without engineering. Some idiot might provide top quality work, with laymen engineering, for less than it's worth.

I believe this is the root of the belief that contractors are all criminals. Those I work with rarely stake their bank account on predicting the future. They agree on a formula to calculate the cost, then charge a fee based on their cost.

I believe the only accurate way to cost a building is to build it. After one is built, errors, and mistakes are learned from, and the next identical building can be predicted.

As I've never done two exactly alike, estimate is a better word than bid.

[Aceman]

I think the takeway from Willie's post.....is that you should build it yourself. I think?

[Willie B]

Not at all! My message is use a competent engineer, whether that be design/build, or two separate providers. Then hire a competent builder. Those who try to cheap out by seeking somebody with a very low bid, set themselves up for disappointment. Contractors with unusually low bids probably either made an error, or intend to cut corners. If they regularly bid lower than they can afford to perform the work, they are soon out of business. If they cut corners to do it cheap, they end up with a number of unhappy customers.

[kolot]

[QUOTE=bigb;8642375]I am no framing expert but an idea occurred to me, why can't the gluelam just be raised up all the way till it is behind the ledger giving me the full 21 extra inches? The ledger could be fastened right to the glulam. I mentioned it to 2 people in the trade so far and both said it is do-able. Maybe I am not as dumb as I look

PS It is important to mention an extension will be added to the front of the opening which will bump the front out 2-3 feet and house a roll up door in the top, so no need for any overhead door clearance on the existing ceiling.[/Q



OK , you are spot on correct that you can simply move the Glulam up and even behind the ledger to gain the height. Now that being said if yotu want additional strength you may add a steel plate, 1/4, 3/8, hell, 1/2" if you want between the ledger and the glulam, however this would mean cutting the joists and moving the ledger in the thickness of the metal plate you choose. It would be drilled and through bolted to the ledger and Glulam making a sandwich. This is called a flitch plate and it is commonly done when a span cannot be headered with the proper depth of beam to meet code due to head room issues.

Plan B would to apply the same style plate to the outside front of the door opening, again through bolting it to the glulam and ledger. It would be concealed by the roll up door. By the way the roll up door is an excellent choice. To do this, I don't think you would need the structural engineer, most competent carpenters would be able to do this. However with a permit and inspection, the building inspector will likely want engineering. Might want to start with the inspector see what he will need?

[bigb]

[QUOTE=kolot;8642653]

However with a permit and inspection, the building inspector will likely want engineering. Might want to start with the inspector see what he will need?

The way it works here is you draw it up and take it to the building department, they review it and make notes then approve it, then you get the permit and construct according to drawing and notes. The field inspector is there to see that you followed the approved drawing and notes, although some of them like to think they can just make up rules in the field from heresay or from their failing memory.

[drujinin]

FWIW
My building inspector asked why my Glu-Lams were not all the way to the top with spacers and a 2x6 across for the doorway?
I replied because the 1950's book on "Wow to Build for the Handyman showed the beams over the tops of the doors.
I didn't mention that the Internet agrees with me on some websites.
True that the doorway on the Endwall would have gained another foot in height. (my mistake for not seeing that fact)

[Mr Earl]

Be very careful selecting an engineer. My employer contracted with an engineering firm which was recommended by the very well reputed contractor that would be selling and installing a large roof-top make-up air unit on my building. The "engineer" drew up plans that called for the MUA unit to be supported in part by two vertical legs sitting on a concrete sidewalk only 2-3" thick. When I called BS on this, the engineer says "It'll be fine". The support problem was finally solved by, wait for it, our 2 weldors. They suggested bridging two existing internal concrete block walls with I-beam. This worked perfectly, and was approved by the county as well.