Question for those with structural knowledge
RSS | Subscribe | Contact Us | Advertise | About Us
Results 1 to 24 of 24
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    2,048

    Question for those with structural knowledge

    I am considering raising my 10 foot door height a bit for a travel trailer. I will hire this out as I am not a builder, and the appropriate permits will be obtained along with whatever the city will require from an engineer. The attached picture is from when the garage was being built about 7 years ago. The glulam is 5.5" X 15". There appears to be room to raise it 6" (up to the bottom of the ledger) which will give me 10 feet 6 inches of an opening which is close for the 10 foot 4" tall TT I am looking at and I wouldn't mind a bit more height. My question is, is it likely that a steel I beam could be used to replace the glulam that would be shorter in height but still offer the required support, giving me a few more inches of clearance? FYI the load on the LPI beams that now hang on the ledger is a flat roof deck with a hot mop roof and 1/2" OSB on the underside. The opening is 20 feet wide.

    Just exploring my options before I proceed with the professionals.
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    Last edited by bigb; 09-08-2018 at 10:02 PM. Reason: to add bold print
    Miller Challenger 172
    Miller Thunderbolt AC/DC 225/150
    Miller Maxstar 150 STL
    Victor 100C
    Victor Journeyman
    Oxweld OA
    Harris O/A
    Smith O/A little torch

    No, that's not my car.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Location
    Long Island, NY
    Posts
    96

    Re: Question for those with structural knowledge

    If this were my project I'd pay a structural engineer for his time and get a properly sized beam computed. All too often mistakes get made with such calculations when done by architects. And I'd make that opening as high as you can so that you're not repeating this exercise again down the road.
    Lincoln Invertec V205-T Tig/stick
    Millermatic 211 Mig Welder
    Speedglas Adflo PAPR 9100 FX-Air
    CertiFlat FB2430 fabBlock U-Weld Kit Welding Table
    FW3012 CertiFlat fabWing 30" X 12" Extension Table

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    2,048

    Re: Question for those with structural knowledge

    Quote Originally Posted by henry42 View Post
    If this were my project I'd pay a structural engineer for his time and get a properly sized beam computed. All too often mistakes get made with such calculations when done by architects. And I'd make that opening as high as you can so that you're not repeating this exercise again down the road.
    If you carefully read my post that is exactly what I am doing. I just wanted to know if anyone could give me an educated guess as to what the engineer might be able to do since it will be a while and I am curious about how much height might be possible.
    Miller Challenger 172
    Miller Thunderbolt AC/DC 225/150
    Miller Maxstar 150 STL
    Victor 100C
    Victor Journeyman
    Oxweld OA
    Harris O/A
    Smith O/A little torch

    No, that's not my car.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Apr 2017
    Location
    Long Island, NY
    Posts
    96

    Re: Question for those with structural knowledge

    An 8" steel beam should easily handle the load if that's all you want to know. I've got one running across my garage, 25' span with much more weight on top of it. If I recall it weighs 33lb/ft. With wood blocking bolted into the web to keep it flush with the wood beams tied into it.
    Lincoln Invertec V205-T Tig/stick
    Millermatic 211 Mig Welder
    Speedglas Adflo PAPR 9100 FX-Air
    CertiFlat FB2430 fabBlock U-Weld Kit Welding Table
    FW3012 CertiFlat fabWing 30" X 12" Extension Table

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Under a Rock
    Posts
    3,412

    Re: Question for those with structural knowledge

    Quote Originally Posted by bigb View Post
    The glulam is 5.5" X 15"

    My question is, is it likely that a steel I beam could be used to replace the glulam that would be shorter in height but still offer the required support, giving me a few more inches of clearance? ..
    See if you can get the specs on the glulam beam (what it will handle in weight) and then go with the shortest (height) steel beam to give you at least what the glulam does.

    I'm sure you can gain quite a bit of room.
    Miller 211
    Hypertherm PM 45
    1961 Lincoln Idealarc 250
    HTP 221


    True Wisdom only comes from Pain.


  6. #6
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Iowa
    Posts
    4,942

    Re: Question for those with structural knowledge

    My first question is can you get a door to fit such an odd size?

    How about a track that allows it to open fully?

    If you're going with something like sliding barn doors, can the header and ledger be combined to get you up to about a 12' opening?
    My name's not Jim....

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    Mount Tabor VT
    Posts
    4,890

    Re: Question for those with structural knowledge

    Logically, you could use a wider I beam in place of a taller one. I too am not an engineer. Talk with an engineer. My steel dealer has a wall full of engineering degrees, maybe yours does.

    Do watch out for engineers who aren't as smart as they think. My son has an apartment over his in law's garage. It was planned for a small deck running along the area above the garage doors 6' wide, 28' long. His father in law knows everything, so he asked an engineer to design brackets to support it in 5 places. Think of shelf brackets, only bigger. The engineer specified high strength steel. High strength is risky stuff to weld without special skills, and methods. My steel dealer thought it was all a bunch of BS. one size bigger in hot rolled gets you more strength, and no special skills to build. The estimated cost of these fancy brackets was prohibitive from a high end fabricator.

    7 years later no brackets have been fabricated, no deck has been built, and the door to nowhere is referred to as a "mother in law door"

    Willie
    An optimist is usually wrong, and when the unexpected happens is unprepared. A pessimist is usually right, when wrong, is delighted, and well prepared.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    2,048

    Re: Question for those with structural knowledge

    Yes I have already thought of that, seems like every engineer I've known likes to spec way overkill. Following John T's advice I came up with an I beam 10" tall which supports weight many times more than the wood glulam presently in place but the chart only allowed for 10" because of my 20 foot span. Even with that I can gain another 5 inches for a total of 11. Fortunately we do all of the electrical contracting for a local builder/re modeler who does first class work so I have the opportunity to use their people. They are so busy though it's tough to get to talk to anyone for any length of time right now.

    As for the door concerns I have been assured that a door can be put together at any height, they just add sections to make it what is needed. The width is more of a standard but at 20 feet mine is commonly available.
    Miller Challenger 172
    Miller Thunderbolt AC/DC 225/150
    Miller Maxstar 150 STL
    Victor 100C
    Victor Journeyman
    Oxweld OA
    Harris O/A
    Smith O/A little torch

    No, that's not my car.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Midland, Texas
    Posts
    1,195

    Re: Question for those with structural knowledge

    I built a new patio on the back of my house a few years ago. Overall, it's 62' long, with a 6"-25# I-beam supported by (4) 3-1/2" square columns spaced about 20 feet apart. I don't remember what the calculated load was (got all that stuff filed away somewhere), but I remember the calculated deflection of the beam was less than 1/8". (Yes, I'm an engineer).

    In your case, I wouldn't think the weight would be very much, EXCEPT if the flat roof collects a lot of rain water or snow. I see that you're in Arizona, so you may not get that much.

    Name:  Patio Beam 3.JPG
Views: 314
Size:  135.4 KB

    Name:  Patio Gables 2.JPG
Views: 312
Size:  196.3 KB
    America Needs AMERICA'S Oil!!!

    "Global warming is the greatest scam in history ...There is no run away climate change. The impact of humans on climate is not catastrophic. Our planet is not in peril."--John Coleman, Founder of The Weather Channel

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    2,048

    Re: Question for those with structural knowledge

    Quote Originally Posted by steve45 View Post
    I built a new patio on the back of my house a few years ago. Overall, it's 62' long, with a 6"-25# I-beam supported by (4) 3-1/2" square columns spaced about 20 feet apart. I don't remember what the calculated load was (got all that stuff filed away somewhere), but I remember the calculated deflection of the beam was less than 1/8". (Yes, I'm an engineer).

    In your case, I wouldn't think the weight would be very much, EXCEPT if the flat roof collects a lot of rain water or snow. I see that you're in Arizona, so you may not get that much.
    A 6" beam would be nice.....I could have an 11 foot door
    Miller Challenger 172
    Miller Thunderbolt AC/DC 225/150
    Miller Maxstar 150 STL
    Victor 100C
    Victor Journeyman
    Oxweld OA
    Harris O/A
    Smith O/A little torch

    No, that's not my car.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Location
    bar stool
    Posts
    680

    Re: Question for those with structural knowledge

    As I recall AC units on the top of a motorcoach are rather expensive as they impact tree limbs and overhead canopies.

    There is also the proclivity of people to buy new campers, and those new campers to be higher, not to mention other things like "The camper fit in there so anything will".

    Add in the cost of roof repairs, both motorcoach and building.

    KISS- put the beam on top of the roof and hang the roof from the beam.
    It gives you maximum possible opening at a one time cost.
    Add a few bucks for cosmetic concealment.

    Ask yourself, "How many times a year do I look at the roof above the overhead door?"

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    2,048

    Re: Question for those with structural knowledge

    Quote Originally Posted by Virgil5 View Post
    As I recall AC units on the top of a motorcoach are rather expensive as they impact tree limbs and overhead canopies.
    "
    Yes they are...I remember the time Minute Lube bought me one. They had the entry door up all the way but pulled the exit door down a couple feet to block out the sun. oops.
    Miller Challenger 172
    Miller Thunderbolt AC/DC 225/150
    Miller Maxstar 150 STL
    Victor 100C
    Victor Journeyman
    Oxweld OA
    Harris O/A
    Smith O/A little torch

    No, that's not my car.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    2,048

    Re: Question for those with structural knowledge

    I am no framing expert but an idea occurred to me, why can't the gluelam just be raised up all the way till it is behind the ledger giving me the full 21 extra inches? The ledger could be fastened right to the glulam. I mentioned it to 2 people in the trade so far and both said it is do-able. Maybe I am not as dumb as I look

    PS It is important to mention an extension will be added to the front of the opening which will bump the front out 2-3 feet and house a roll up door in the top, so no need for any overhead door clearance on the existing ceiling.
    Last edited by bigb; 09-11-2018 at 08:55 PM.
    Miller Challenger 172
    Miller Thunderbolt AC/DC 225/150
    Miller Maxstar 150 STL
    Victor 100C
    Victor Journeyman
    Oxweld OA
    Harris O/A
    Smith O/A little torch

    No, that's not my car.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Iowa
    Posts
    4,942

    Re: Question for those with structural knowledge

    Pretty sure that's what I said in post #6.
    My name's not Jim....

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    2,048

    Re: Question for those with structural knowledge

    Quote Originally Posted by Boostinjdm View Post
    Pretty sure that's what I said in post #6.
    Yes you did and now I am guilty of not reading through each post carefully Apologies for not seeing it and thanks at the same time
    Miller Challenger 172
    Miller Thunderbolt AC/DC 225/150
    Miller Maxstar 150 STL
    Victor 100C
    Victor Journeyman
    Oxweld OA
    Harris O/A
    Smith O/A little torch

    No, that's not my car.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    Mount Tabor VT
    Posts
    4,890

    Re: Question for those with structural knowledge

    "PS It is important to mention an extension will be added to the front of the opening which will bump the front out 2-3 feet and house a roll up door in the top, so no need for any overhead door clearance on the existing ceiling."

    If that is the case, a flat plate could be quite tall, and thick as you choose bolted to the face of the opening on the outside. It'd reinforce the gluelam.
    An optimist is usually wrong, and when the unexpected happens is unprepared. A pessimist is usually right, when wrong, is delighted, and well prepared.

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Location
    bar stool
    Posts
    680

    Re: Question for those with structural knowledge

    There is no need for discussion.
    A professional with a Degree and a License will poke data into a computer and a design plan will be generated.

    Professional Contractors will bid the job looking at both building and plan.
    The low bidder will be selected.
    He may actually show up after collecting the Deposit, more likely he'll move over the State line and spend the deposit on dope and Nike shoes.

    Most likely the professional contractor will send a couple 19 year old dopers with claw hammers, the front of the building will be ripped apart, and the roof will collapse on the motorhome. Fire Department might show up, followed by Code Enforcement who will call in a contractor to fence the building for public safety and generate Citations for the property owner.

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    Mount Tabor VT
    Posts
    4,890

    Re: Question for those with structural knowledge

    I've worked with framing "contractors" my whole life. I've seen a few who go down to State Street in Rutland to hire a new crew every day. After a short time, these people disappear. 90% of the framers I've ever dealt with work time, and material.

    Building owners looking for low bid contractors are gamblers. They hope to find someone too dumb to estimate cost, but smart enough to build it right.

    If Bob, Jim, John, and Joe are all contractors, all NEED the job. Each will use his own formula to predict his cost to build. Each bid will reflect cost to build, and hoped profit. If bob wants $100,000, Jim wants $90,000, and John wants $80,000. Gambling homeowner chooses Joe, cause he bid $60,000.

    Gambling homeowner ignores the likelihood that Joe dropped a zero somewhere in his calculation, or intends to cheat on specifications, or will use unskilled labor, maybe illegals, or goes to the local Turning Point, or whatever clever name the halfway house for addicts calls themselves. Despite the fact Joe has no past history locally, likely, will be bankrupt before the job is complete, Gambling Homeowner hopes to get something of value free. He rarely involves an engineer. He solicits bids without engineering. Some idiot might provide top quality work, with laymen engineering, for less than it's worth.

    I believe this is the root of the belief that contractors are all criminals. Those I work with rarely stake their bank account on predicting the future. They agree on a formula to calculate the cost, then charge a fee based on their cost.

    I believe the only accurate way to cost a building is to build it. After one is built, errors, and mistakes are learned from, and the next identical building can be predicted.

    As I've never done two exactly alike, estimate is a better word than bid.
    An optimist is usually wrong, and when the unexpected happens is unprepared. A pessimist is usually right, when wrong, is delighted, and well prepared.

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Hermiston, OR
    Posts
    210

    Re: Question for those with structural knowledge

    I think the takeway from Willie's post.....is that you should build it yourself. I think?

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    Mount Tabor VT
    Posts
    4,890

    Re: Question for those with structural knowledge

    Not at all! My message is use a competent engineer, whether that be design/build, or two separate providers. Then hire a competent builder. Those who try to cheap out by seeking somebody with a very low bid, set themselves up for disappointment. Contractors with unusually low bids probably either made an error, or intend to cut corners. If they regularly bid lower than they can afford to perform the work, they are soon out of business. If they cut corners to do it cheap, they end up with a number of unhappy customers.
    An optimist is usually wrong, and when the unexpected happens is unprepared. A pessimist is usually right, when wrong, is delighted, and well prepared.

  21. #21
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    CT
    Posts
    1,671

    Re: Question for those with structural knowledge

    [QUOTE=bigb;8642375]I am no framing expert but an idea occurred to me, why can't the gluelam just be raised up all the way till it is behind the ledger giving me the full 21 extra inches? The ledger could be fastened right to the glulam. I mentioned it to 2 people in the trade so far and both said it is do-able. Maybe I am not as dumb as I look

    PS It is important to mention an extension will be added to the front of the opening which will bump the front out 2-3 feet and house a roll up door in the top, so no need for any overhead door clearance on the existing ceiling.[/Q



    OK , you are spot on correct that you can simply move the Glulam up and even behind the ledger to gain the height. Now that being said if yotu want additional strength you may add a steel plate, 1/4, 3/8, hell, 1/2" if you want between the ledger and the glulam, however this would mean cutting the joists and moving the ledger in the thickness of the metal plate you choose. It would be drilled and through bolted to the ledger and Glulam making a sandwich. This is called a flitch plate and it is commonly done when a span cannot be headered with the proper depth of beam to meet code due to head room issues.

    Plan B would to apply the same style plate to the outside front of the door opening, again through bolting it to the glulam and ledger. It would be concealed by the roll up door. By the way the roll up door is an excellent choice. To do this, I don't think you would need the structural engineer, most competent carpenters would be able to do this. However with a permit and inspection, the building inspector will likely want engineering. Might want to start with the inspector see what he will need?
    "Si Vis Pacem Para Bellum"

    Lincoln Idealarc 250 AC/DC
    Millermatic 251 Syncrowave 300 30A spoolgun
    Lincoln MP210
    Hypertherm 45
    (2) LN 25
    (2) Lincoln Weldanpower 225 CV
    (4) SA200 1 short hood SA250 SAM 400

  22. #22
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    2,048

    Re: Question for those with structural knowledge

    [QUOTE=kolot;8642653]
    Quote Originally Posted by bigb View Post
    However with a permit and inspection, the building inspector will likely want engineering. Might want to start with the inspector see what he will need?
    The way it works here is you draw it up and take it to the building department, they review it and make notes then approve it, then you get the permit and construct according to drawing and notes. The field inspector is there to see that you followed the approved drawing and notes, although some of them like to think they can just make up rules in the field from heresay or from their failing memory.
    Miller Challenger 172
    Miller Thunderbolt AC/DC 225/150
    Miller Maxstar 150 STL
    Victor 100C
    Victor Journeyman
    Oxweld OA
    Harris O/A
    Smith O/A little torch

    No, that's not my car.

  23. #23
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Elkhorn, WI
    Posts
    1,696

    Re: Question for those with structural knowledge

    FWIW
    My building inspector asked why my Glu-Lams were not all the way to the top with spacers and a 2x6 across for the doorway?
    I replied because the 1950's book on "Wow to Build for the Handyman showed the beams over the tops of the doors.
    I didn't mention that the Internet agrees with me on some websites.
    True that the doorway on the Endwall would have gained another foot in height. (my mistake for not seeing that fact)

  24. #24
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Posts
    15

    Re: Question for those with structural knowledge

    Be very careful selecting an engineer. My employer contracted with an engineering firm which was recommended by the very well reputed contractor that would be selling and installing a large roof-top make-up air unit on my building. The "engineer" drew up plans that called for the MUA unit to be supported in part by two vertical legs sitting on a concrete sidewalk only 2-3" thick. When I called BS on this, the engineer says "It'll be fine". The support problem was finally solved by, wait for it, our 2 weldors. They suggested bridging two existing internal concrete block walls with I-beam. This worked perfectly, and was approved by the county as well.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
RSS | Home | Penton Media | Contact Us | Subscribe | For Advertisers | Terms of Use | Privacy Statement