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Thread: oxyhydrogen

  1. #26
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    Re: oxyhydrogen

    Quote Originally Posted by makoman1860 View Post
    While I do not find the usefulness of a electrolysis plant that makes a flame so oxidizing it has limited use, it should be noted that an actually useful oxy/hydrogen flame using a standard torch and standard bottled gasses does indeed have some very fine uses in industry.
    Beyond lead welding (not soldering) Such as? Back yard aircraft building don't count, and ramming an electric arc heat treating furnace is not a welding use.

    Feel free to expound on Bakers Gas too, and throw in the wonderful things to be done with liquified natural gas for extra points.

  2. #27
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    Re: oxyhydrogen

    Quote Originally Posted by Virgil5 View Post
    Beyond lead welding (not soldering) Such as? Back yard aircraft building don't count, and ramming an electric arc heat treating furnace is not a welding use.

    Feel free to expound on Bakers Gas too, and throw in the wonderful things to be done with liquified natural gas for extra points.

    It's actually used quite a bit in the fabrication of tanks and ductwork for aviation, not as much is years past due to technical issues of flame setting and safety issues with an almost invisible flame. Its also used in the welding of platinum for instruments, and the manufacturer of thermocouples. Ha I like your bit about backyard aircraft building......A professional homebuilder would know how to use both oxy/hydrogen and oxy/acetylene for their intended purpose......so please don't pick on those people that know more than you on the subject ok? Thanks.

  3. #28
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    Re: oxyhydrogen

    Quote Originally Posted by danielplace View Post
    He doesn't think you can do that without some magnificent explosion.
    Clueless blah blah blah is all he added to the thread.

    The Harris website surely isn't posting up total bs that would be completely dangerous to do.
    Haha of course it's not dangerous, or at least any more so than oxy/acetylene outside of the increased leakage risk and colorless flame. Its used quite a bit in various industries and even your local airgas stocks hydrogen and hydrogen regulators. Now I am only speaking to traditional oxy/hydrogen.....not this generator thing which is its own thing and should not ever be confused with a traditional setup.

  4. #29
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    Re: oxyhydrogen

    In case anyone is interested, this is probably the best vintage film I have seen showing oxy-hydrogen welding of aluminum up close. I have always admired the perfection in the work shown.


  5. #30
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    Re: oxyhydrogen

    Quote Originally Posted by makoman1860 View Post
    It's actually used quite a bit in the fabrication of tanks and ductwork for aviation, not as much is years past due to technical issues of flame setting and safety issues with an almost invisible flame. Its also used in the welding of platinum for instruments, and the manufacturer of thermocouples. Ha I like your bit about backyard aircraft building......A professional homebuilder would know how to use both oxy/hydrogen and oxy/acetylene for their intended purpose......so please don't pick on those people that know more than you on the subject ok? Thanks.
    Platinum, gold, silver and most other exotics went Laser at least 15 years ago for far superior welds.
    OH is still the best process for lead because of the speed lead oxidizes at after being cleaned. It's a pure ball when you haul Hydrogen bottles into a hospital or medical building to weld up wall and floor sheets in an Xray room.
    You got no idea how fast doctors in Hindu garb can move till you see them launch after confirming those 330s are Hydrogen. They seem to be under the impression they are bombs.

    Only aluminum I've seen done with Hydrogen in the last 30 years was being brazed, not welded. Welding aluminum O/H flourished during WW-2 and fell off rapidly after as Heliarc came into being. During the war there were many long lines of women doing beautiful O/H work. You can go back into the War Records around 42 and see all Acetylene diverted to ship and heavy steel production by the War Department.

    Little lead welding (lead burning) is still done in the US due to OSHA and EPA having little knowledge and thick citation pads. Lead fabrication in any form is pretty much gone from the US thanks to EEOC deciding women must be given jobs in lead work even though lead exposure might cause fetal problems in pregnant women. Government workers sent all production off shore.

    There is still lead burning as a craft on a small island called Lesser Britania, but it may not last long given the new population taking the island over.

    The greatest volume of Hydrogen used in this area is for plasma cutting of thick aluminum and stainless.

    UA Local 827 is home to most Canadian Lead Burners, and maintains a nice website with some information on their unique craft. Their work is primarily anodes used in smelting and refining.
    One of the last US anode shops was a 1 man operation in Meridian Conn, but I think he closed up due to costs.

    The traditional old hands used a gas torch tip jammed in a soft rubber hose with a pair of gas valves Yed to the tip from hoses hanging over their shoulders.

  6. #31
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    Re: oxyhydrogen

    A friend of mine still does lead alloy casting of sheet for historical rebuilding of pipe organs and one of my suppliers here actually makes a lot(100's tons) of anodes for the fishing industry here, so it is still a pretty large business although it's getting harder every day to use lead because it so *dangerous*....

  7. #32
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    Re: oxyhydrogen

    Lead anodes? What are the boats made of, titanium? There aren't many metals that are more cathodic than lead...even copper is anodic to lead.

  8. #33
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    Re: oxyhydrogen

    I'll ask next time I'm in their warehouse, but one of the forklift drivers told me they had some lead in them....

  9. #34
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    Re: oxyhydrogen

    Sure it wasn't zinc?

  10. #35
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    Re: oxyhydrogen

    This is being widely used for small jewelry and musical instrument shops:

    https://www.sra-solder.com/sra-h20-w...ng-and-brazing

    I'm sure it can be scaled up to pretty much any level depending on the needs.

    Eric

  11. #36
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    Re: oxyhydrogen

    Midrange metal pipes are lead tin alloy, with a wee bit of Pixie dust and a lot of intense highly skilled labor.

    Great care is taken in the alloy, pixie dust component, because lead + tin can become electrogalvanic (corrosive) where it marrys to the wood.

    Then there are the Brass higher notes, often a strange alloy of zink, copper perhaps a thimble of iron and Elf pee to give it color and corrosion resistance.

    Boardwalk Hall in Atlantic City claims the greatest number of pipes, although the stupid politicians seem to flood the monster every few years. The largest pipe organ ever built, based on number of pipes, is the Boardwalk Hall Auditorium Organ in Atlantic City, New Jersey, built by the Midmer-Losh Organ Company between 1929 and 1932. The organ contains seven manuals, 449 ranks, 337 registers, and 33,114 pipes. It weighs approximately 150 tons.
    The beast also has 66 footers made from Wood.

    Wanamakers in Philly is probably larger in pipe count, but nobody has succeeded in counting them due to scattering in multiple banks around the store. No 66s, but they aren't needed since human ears can't hear the voice, but you sure feel it.

    And of course there is "The mother of all US Organs" in Salt Lake City.
    Mother weighs in with merely 11,000 pipes and it takes minimally 3 organists on the bench to bring them all to life at once. Mother has no 66 footers fortunately, and the doors better be open when Mother lets go with all her pipes or the windows well may come out.

  12. #37
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    Re: oxyhydrogen

    @Virgil5 Yeah, my friend rebuilds the big organs to original specs. Some of the pipes in the originals are so big and heavy that through the years they start to cave in at the base because sound pressure! He still does the old school method of hammering the pipe sheets then rolling and welding them into pipe shape, usually it takes him way more than a year to rebuild one from scratch... I never saw the pixie dust when we were casting, trimming, hammering, rolling, welding and finishing the pipes.... but I'm sure there is something in there...

  13. #38
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    Re: oxyhydrogen

    Last bossman's wife was the Master Organist for a German company and sole representative in the US.

    Worst part of those magnificent machines is they don't come in for service.

    The lead pipes are indeed self destructive and a major PITA to voice and keep voiced. Off top of my head there are minimally 8 trades involved in keeping an organ healthy. Worst part, most speak Organ not English, but they are damn interesting to watch in action.

    Have you had the pleasure of rebabbiting a sturdevant blower yet?

    Rochester is blessed a bunch of crazy men removed the theater organ from the RKO palace before demolition and spent years rebuilding it into the Auditorium Theater here. Around 80 the organ was near completion fortunately because the crazy old men were dying off. Along came the Professors from Eastman School and managed to claim the organ. They have a very nice website. THEY performed a miracle saving that organ. Oddly, I have no recollection of any of those fine haired sons of byches being around during the move or rebuild. More oddly none of the men who made it happen are spoken of on the web site.

    Today, there are maybe 6 organists in the world who can play that machine, and the Professors are in league with the Theater owner to neglect the organ to death while mining it for money from donors. I don't care if I ever see that organ again as long as I live.

  14. #39
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    Re: oxyhydrogen

    I don't get over to his shop much lately but have helped him with various things in the process and troubleshooting in the casting and welding to name a couple. Haven't done any babbitting with the blowers but I can tell you some of these thing are really big!!! and can make some decent wind Another way he is making them last longer is using special wood(forget name???) for some of the sensitive valving so moisture won't affect it as some of the installations are in very humid areas. I know what you mean on the organ speak it's even worse when he and his guys put german on top of that.

  15. #40
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    Re: oxyhydrogen

    Have you noticed Organ people have no conversence with time let alone days and weeks?

    Bose's wife could look at a sheet of music she never played and tell within 10 seconds how long it would play, but Tuesday, Wednesday Friday were meaningless. She carried a desk book with days of the week on top of the page, but couldn't tell you what day it was. Never saw her when her fingers weren't moving playing something in her head. Had a $1000 stereo in her car but it never got used cause she had a tune going between her ears. Also forget North, South and any possible chance of reading a map, the girl who flipped thru music on 11 x 17 pages couldn't fold a map to save her life. Her hobby was finding a great outfit at the Salvation Army Store and retailoring it for herself.

    Good thing was she recognized her shortcomings and laughed at herself. Her buddy all thru Eastman played a Viola brilliantly. Definitely a comedy watching the 2 together.

  16. #41
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    Re: oxyhydrogen

    Quote Originally Posted by ronsii View Post
    A friend of mine still does lead alloy casting of sheet for historical rebuilding of pipe organs and one of my suppliers here actually makes a lot(100's tons) of anodes for the fishing industry here, so it is still a pretty large business although it's getting harder every day to use lead because it so *dangerous*....
    Quote Originally Posted by Kelvin View Post
    Lead anodes? What are the boats made of, titanium? There aren't many metals that are more cathodic than lead...even copper is anodic to lead.
    Quote Originally Posted by ronsii View Post
    I'll ask next time I'm in their warehouse, but one of the forklift drivers told me they had some lead in them....
    Quote Originally Posted by makoman1860 View Post
    Sure it wasn't zinc?
    Zinc anodes are slowly being phased out too because of the cadmium content.

    Anodes are also being made from aluminum alloy and magnesium but at higher cost they haven't replaced zinc yet.
    Last edited by danielplace; 09-17-2018 at 11:15 PM.

  17. #42
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    Re: oxyhydrogen

    Quote Originally Posted by Virgil5 View Post
    Have you noticed Organ people have no conversence with time let alone days and weeks?

    Bose's wife could look at a sheet of music she never played and tell within 10 seconds how long it would play, but Tuesday, Wednesday Friday were meaningless. She carried a desk book with days of the week on top of the page, but couldn't tell you what day it was. Never saw her when her fingers weren't moving playing something in her head. Had a $1000 stereo in her car but it never got used cause she had a tune going between her ears. Also forget North, South and any possible chance of reading a map, the girl who flipped thru music on 11 x 17 pages couldn't fold a map to save her life. Her hobby was finding a great outfit at the Salvation Army Store and retailoring it for herself.

    Good thing was she recognized her shortcomings and laughed at herself. Her buddy all thru Eastman played a Viola brilliantly. Definitely a comedy watching the 2 together.

    I'm not fully versed in organese but I can keep up when they're talking... as long as it's in english I do have a hard time keeping track of what day it is though...might have too much going on in my head... or a screw loose, hard to tell... and I tell people up front when their giving me directions that I can get lost in the back yard.. LOL

  18. #43
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    Re: oxyhydrogen

    Magnesium anodes work OK in freshwater. In saltwater, they disappear almost as fast as shaved ice. Aluminum alloy zincs work OK on steel boats...on aluminum outboards/outdrives – well, do ya feel lucky?

  19. #44
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    Re: oxyhydrogen

    Quote Originally Posted by Virgil5 View Post
    Oh goodie, 2 minutes and 40 seconds of blithering idiots in synthetic clothing and improper eye protection along with imbeciles in plastic lab coats & ties spewing crap. Oddly none of them appear old enough to remember how well plastic clothing worked out for the former Brit Navy, when they could still put to sea, in the Falkland Campaign.

    Sort of amazing considering the former nation, now part of the United Muslim Invasion, that built the first electrically welded ship hull and put it to sea to the satisfaction of Lloyds to make welded hulls the standard around a hundred years ago has sunk to this level of deception.
    Did they mention of the pile of crap that breaks the water into Hydrogen and Oxygen includes their famed Lucas Electrics?
    Perhaps they have additional videos demonstrating how Margaret employs Hydrogen to boil the P!S$ out of kidneys in the company lunch area, and her sister Elisabeth is now running the Hydrogen powered tea trolley around the shops.

    Next can we discuss the marvels of Bakers Gas and the hustlers trying to reclaim their investment in cylinders and fill plants for that stew?
    Love your comments. Then are on point!

    One difficulty that I can think of in using hydrogen gas as a fuel for welding would be that it has a rather small molecule. It would certainly be prone to leakage, which could be disastrous in a weld shop.

    I recall back when I was a rocket engine mechanic, we worked a great deal with helium and it was prone to leakage due to its small molecule, although it is inert.

    I'll stick to O-A.
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  20. #45
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    Re: oxyhydrogen

    Quote Originally Posted by gnm109 View Post
    Love your comments. Then are on point!

    One difficulty that I can think of in using hydrogen gas as a fuel for welding would be that it has a rather small molecule. It would certainly be prone to leakage, which could be disastrous in a weld shop.

    I recall back when I was a rocket engine mechanic, we worked a great deal with helium and it was prone to leakage due to its small molecule, although it is inert.

    I'll stick to O-A.
    Yeah there is more loss due to hose permeation and all that, but it's pretty small as long as you shut the rig down when not in use. It's really not a big deal.

  21. #46
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    Re: oxyhydrogen

    Quote Originally Posted by makoman1860 View Post
    Yeah there is more loss due to hose permeation and all that, but it's pretty small as long as you shut the rig down when not in use. It's really not a big deal.
    You wouldn't want to put money on Hydrogen and Helium losses being primarily due to gas lost to permiability of hoses etc.

  22. #47
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    Re: oxyhydrogen

    Quote Originally Posted by Virgil5 View Post
    You wouldn't want to put money on Hydrogen and Helium losses being primarily due to gas lost to permiability of hoses etc.
    Well in my experience that has been where its at, there and regulator diaphragms which is why they are vented externally.

  23. #48

    Re: oxyhydrogen

    That makes sense then why people use electrolysis torches for jewelry work where the oxidative flame doesn't matter.

    I fully realize I'm entering crazy land, but what if some propane was fed into the fuel line of the torch and the electrolysis feed into the oxy line? The propane would react with the atmospheric oxygen and make the flame neutral.

  24. #49
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    Re: oxyhydrogen

    Don't want to shake you up early on, but you're approaching Brown's gas.

  25. #50
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    Re: oxyhydrogen

    Quote Originally Posted by nten View Post
    That makes sense then why people use electrolysis torches for jewelry work where the oxidative flame doesn't matter.

    I fully realize I'm entering crazy land, but what if some propane was fed into the fuel line of the torch and the electrolysis feed into the oxy line? The propane would react with the atmospheric oxygen and make the flame neutral.
    Considering how cheap hydrogen is......you are probably money ahead to just buy it. Not to mention having a controlled process instead of some rigged together contraption. When wisconsin aluminum used electrolysis and oxy/hydrogen, the gasses (separate oxy and hydrogen )were bottled at the generation plant on the wisconsin river, then shipped to the manufacturing facility.

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