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  1. #76
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    Re: 3 phase converter power?

    Rotarys going back at least 50 years have been doing the job and handling changing loads without problems.

    Contrary to salesman representations, digitals do NOT respond well to load changes. There are many references to this situation on machine tool sites, including the need to employ multiple digital converters on machines with multiple motor loads.
    The representation "the digital phase converters work just fine with multiple loads" is called puffery in polite terms when it comes from a salesman's mouth. Working just fine with a multiple load may be true under some circumstances, but it is not saying works fine with a multiple load that changes during the machine's use cycle.

    Your gelato machine has 2 very different loads on the mixer alone, evidently caused by different requirements to stir when mixing and then freezing. In addition your refrigeration compressor will be starting and stopping as well as probably absorbing an inconsistent amp draw during the chill period.
    That all adds up to a lot of load changes to the converter on every batch.

    A rotary easily compensates for load changes through momentum and additional draw on the single phase side.

    Solid state lacks the momentum feature so a computer must sense load and adjust electronics to accommodate it.
    If the frequency of output power MUST be maintained, solid state might be worth considering, but in your case it isn't a consideration, your loads are 100% motor.

    Your suggestion a solid state converter is quieter indicates you haven't had the opportunity to spend time around one. They emit everything from ultrasonic down to a whistle and generally drive dogs away.

    Were I in your position I'd buy track record and that is rotary.
    If you opt to go solid state insist on a written guarantee of fitness to the purpose of running your machine in your environment signed by a company officer and backed by a third party bond.
    Last edited by Virgil5; 10-19-2018 at 11:21 PM.

  2. #77
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    Re: 3 phase converter power?

    Virgil, I really appreciate all the help you gave me following my case, many thanks!

    Your explanation has been extremely clear, and I'm gonna follow this advise:
    Quote Originally Posted by Virgil5 View Post
    Were I in your position I'd buy track record and that is rotary.
    I'm gonna get an American Rotary, I already did several researches and I think their price is fair compared to others and they have a great reputation.

    PS: by any change do you live near LA?

  3. #78
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    Re: 3 phase converter power?

    Not unless one hell of an earthquake comes up and puts LA and Lake Ontario side by side.

  4. #79
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    Re: 3 phase converter power?

    Quote Originally Posted by Virgil5 View Post
    Not unless one hell of an earthquake comes up and puts LA and Lake Ontario side by side.
    Mmm in that case I hope you keep living far away

  5. #80
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    Re: 3 phase converter power?

    Doesn't that mean your service needs upgraded from 100 amp to 200 amp. Is that something you propose to do with permits ?

    What would a electric bill mean to anyone in the permitting department ? A service is not sized based on what is being used at any given time. Those other businesses can change and may start to use all they have then where does that leave everyone.

    So what if you were the 5th bay and the other 4 were empty. Oh well power bills show zero on those other four the entire service is ours. So easy to see that isn't how it is done.
    Last edited by danielplace; 10-21-2018 at 12:58 PM.

  6. #81
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    Re: 3 phase converter power?

    2 200 and a 100 off a 400 service is doable.
    Looks like you are already in 2" if that is your service coming out the wall with the LB and piped under the main to get to right side meter stack. You can pull 3-3/0 and a #4 in the same pipe easily.

  7. #82
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    Re: 3 phase converter power?

    Quote Originally Posted by danielplace View Post
    Those other businesses can change and may start to use all they have then where does that leave everyone.
    I'm sorry but I don't get your point: the engineer checked the power demand of the 2 other shops and we found out that they use much less energy than we thought even using all their equipment at the same time, so the current system is enough for the third tenant (us, and there are no other tenants, the building only has 3 spaces) and there is no need to upgrade it since we have almost a 25% of extra amps still available.

    I don't have to stay within the 100 amps, we have in total 400 amps to share among us and we also split the bill 33% each one, no matter if someone uses more power than the others.
    Of course we'd have a problem if someone would use 250 amps alone, but based on what the electrical engineer told me we are the ones that probably are gonna use more power since we have more refrigeration units than the others, and anyway we are below the 133 amps (1/3 of the 400 total).

    And if the other shops decide to change or add equipment at that point it won't be my problem, they will have to make sure that there is enough power for their new equipment and eventually talk with the landlord. The landlord is already willing to pay half of my phase converter, for sure I'm not gonna ask him to upgrade the current panel only because maybe in the future the other shops may change something, because at that point I can say bye bye to the 50% offer.

  8. #83
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    Re: 3 phase converter power?

    My point is if you need permits it has to be large enough based on calculations that don't have anything to do with the electric bills of those using a service.

    Yes I know there is 3 users on your service.

    The 5 and 4 empty obviously wasn't your situation. It was a example.

    Is the electrial engineer actually from the building department you will be getting your electrical permits from ?
    If he is private or from power company nothing they say means anything.

    Using electic bills to determine service size is bizarre to me.

    I personally think it would be fine if all stays the same but it will be your problem if the service was overloaded and you have no power don't you think or maybe some low voltage issues and phase converter or gelato machine fries in six months.

  9. #84
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    Re: 3 phase converter power?

    Quote Originally Posted by danielplace View Post
    My point is if you need permits it has to be large enough based on calculations that don't have anything to do with the electric bills of those using a service.

    Is the electrial engineer actually from the building department you will be getting your electrical permits from ?
    If he is private or from power company nothing they say means anything.
    I have no idea about how it works, I only know that these are the people who always work with the architect I hired and he already got away with a few favors from the various departments and he knows the people who have to approve these plans, so I guess they know what to do since it's their job and they know these stuff have to be approved.

    I personally think it would be fine if all stays the same but it will be your problem if the service was overloaded and you have no power don't you think or maybe some low voltage issues and phase converter or gelato machine fries in six months.
    The other 2 shops probably already are at their maximum capacity: one literally has no extra space for anything (I've visited it also on the back) and the other one before placed the walk-in freezer on the back and then, after a while, he doubled its size, and for sure there won't be other space for a third upgrade. Also regarding the machines they use I don't see why they should use something bigger than what they have at the moment, I mean, at the end we're talking about salads and pitas, they don't need special equipment for that.

    I really appreciate your concerns because I prefer to listen to everyone's opinion but at least regarding the power usage of the other shops I'm not really worried.
    And, if one of them should really make some big change, I really hope they have at least the intelligence to do what I'm doing now and make sure that nobody gets damaged by the new situation.

    Anyway I'd like to have a clarification regarding this "and phase converter or gelato machine fries in six months", why would the gelato machine fry? Doesn't the PC act as safety measure so, if something really fries, that should be the PC alone?

  10. #85
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    Re: 3 phase converter power?

    Interesting that the 3 of you share the electric bill since it looks as though they installed 3 separate meters.
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  11. #86
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    Re: 3 phase converter power?

    Quote Originally Posted by rexcormack View Post
    Many small(yes 14hp is small) machines like that don't contain any 3 phase components.
    They use 3 phase for splitting the loads.
    If you verify that it does not contain any 3 phase motors, including the compressor, you could rewire it to single phase.
    I've done that to a bunch of our test chambers, all it required was installing a jumper and changing the cord and plug.
    I still say this machine contains no 3 phase components. If it did you would have to open it up and check for proper rotation on all
    three motors especially the compressor!
    Just rewire it for single phase when you receive it. Easy peasy!

  12. #87
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    Re: 3 phase converter power?

    Quote Originally Posted by Broccoli1 View Post
    Interesting that the 3 of you share the electric bill since it looks as though they installed 3 separate meters.
    They don't. He got the bills from the other two shops that. He will be number 3.

    The engineer thinks that because the peak demand on the electric bills only shows 188 amps(the sum of other two) of use total on the service before him so that leaves plenty for a 200 amp service upgrade for a total of 2 -200 and 1 -100 on the service. Sounds good if he can get it permitted I have no doubt it is enough if everything stays the same in all the shops.

    Quote Originally Posted by rexcormack View Post
    I still say this machine contains no 3 phase components. If it did you would have to open it up and check for proper rotation on all
    three motors especially the compressor!
    Just rewire it for single phase when you receive it. Easy peasy!
    It is possible it is all single phase motors split up on the 3 phase but why would they not offer it built that way in a single phase model.

    There would be zero warranty if it was rewired that is for certain.

    I am thinking there is at least one that being the compressor but I would certainly doubt the other small motors are. But like you say there may be none at all. Very possible.

    Usually you do not have to change rotation on every motor of multi motor 3 phase equipment. They already do that when they build them so if you make the supply connection in the proper rotation they are all going to be going the correct direction. It is always wise to verify that motors are running correctly but they know how to phase them identically.

    Any 3 phase equipment will often tell you whether it is to be connected in clockwise or counterclockwise rotation and simple to connect rotation meter to the lines and connect them appropriately.

    All 3 phase motors if connected in ABC counterclockwise rotation in same order to 1-2-3 motor leads the motor will also run when facing opposite the shaft end in a counterclockwise direction. So it is easy to build them to run the correct direction on multiple motors sharing the same line connections.
    Last edited by danielplace; 10-22-2018 at 04:28 PM.

  13. #88
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    Re: 3 phase converter power?

    Quote Originally Posted by rexcormack View Post
    I still say this machine contains no 3 phase components. If it did you would have to open it up and check for proper rotation on all
    three motors especially the compressor!
    Just rewire it for single phase when you receive it. Easy peasy!
    As Daniel already point out I would invalid the warranty, I can't risk that machine to save a few thousand dollars which of course are a lot of money but that machine is much more expensive, I'm not gonna take that kind of risk, it's not worth it.

  14. #89
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    Re: 3 phase converter power?

    A curiosity, this is from a shop very near to us, I read "120-480V", does it mean he has a 3 phase?

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  15. #90
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    Re: 3 phase converter power?

    It is single phase. 3 phase would be a 4 wire meter. The 3W denotes it as a 3. Voltage has no relation to number of phases.

  16. #91
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    Re: 3 phase converter power?

    Ok thanks Daniel, so at this point nobody in the area has the 3 phase, I was just curious about that.

  17. #92
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    Re: 3 phase converter power?

    Quote Originally Posted by Virgil5 View Post
    Notice there are only 3 wires connected where the triplex connects to the wires coming from the weatherhead. 1 of them is bare, therefore Neutral. Only 2 hot wires means Single Phase.
    Not necessarily the case. I used to work on systems waaay out in the boonies that used 480 VAC 3 phase. Certain utilities would feed them with corner ground delta which would be like that. The systems came with a shorting bar to replace the fuse in the grounded leg of the 3 phase. Probably not the case in downtown LA, though.
    Tim

  18. #93
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    Re: 3 phase converter power?

    Quote Originally Posted by pin2hot View Post
    Not necessarily the case. I used to work on systems waaay out in the boonies that used 480 VAC 3 phase. Certain utilities would feed them with corner ground delta which would be like that. The systems came with a shorting bar to replace the fuse in the grounded leg of the 3 phase. Probably not the case in downtown LA, though.
    True, but we but we know that wasn't the case here.

    I completely forgot about that and I think I have seen what you are talking about on remote farm well pump. They are 240 volt on two of the legs and zero on the other. Almost similar to how our standard 120/240 single phase systems are.
    Last edited by danielplace; 10-23-2018 at 09:02 PM.

  19. #94
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    Re: 3 phase converter power?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ale View Post
    As Daniel already point out I would invalid the warranty, I can't risk that machine to save a few thousand dollars which of course are a lot of money but that machine is much more expensive, I'm not gonna take that kind of risk, it's not worth it.
    Are you sure about that? Have you asked the manufacturer?

    We use equipment that comes wired and marked 3phase but the wiring diagram clearly shows how to rewire it 1phase.
    All it takes is moving a single jumper. And it does not invalidate the warranty.

    Have you asked the machine manufacturer if using a phase converter will invalidate the warranty?

    Just to confuse matters even more:
    With true 3 phase any two legs are 120° apart. Every rotary or static phase converter I've seen adds a third phase to the original "2" phases.
    Seems to me that would mean that line 1 and line 2 are 180°'s apart, line 2 and line 3 are 120° apart but line 3 and line 1 would be 240° degrees apart!
    I know there are guys on here that will say we've been using phase converters for 1000's of years with out a problem!
    I would think the manufacturer should have the last word on what does and does not void the warranty.

    Here is some very interesting reading. I would recommend reading the whole thing several times and pay close attention to the difference between rotary(motor-
    generator), static and vfd.

    http://www.kayind.com/home/faq

  20. #95
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    Re: 3 phase converter power?

    Quote Originally Posted by rexcormack View Post
    Are you sure about that? Have you asked the manufacturer?

    We use equipment that comes wired and marked 3phase but the wiring diagram clearly shows how to rewire it 1phase.
    All it takes is moving a single jumper. And it does not invalidate the warranty.

    Have you asked the machine manufacturer if using a phase converter will invalidate the warranty?
    I already spoke with their local technician weeks ago and he told me the only solution is to use a phase converter, and that's something very common and there are no problems with the warranty. I also asked if they have a single phase version or if it was possible to do something and he said no, otherwise I think he would have proposed this option.

    And I got the same answer also from the reseller, when they use these machines in the expos they use a phase converter.

  21. #96
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    Re: 3 phase converter power?

    Quote Originally Posted by rexcormack View Post
    Are you sure about that? Have you asked the manufacturer?

    We use equipment that comes wired and marked 3phase but the wiring diagram clearly shows how to rewire it 1phase.
    All it takes is moving a single jumper. And it does not invalidate the warranty.

    Have you asked the machine manufacturer if using a phase converter will invalidate the warranty?

    Just to confuse matters even more:
    With true 3 phase any two legs are 120° apart. Every rotary or static phase converter I've seen adds a third phase to the original "2" phases.
    Seems to me that would mean that line 1 and line 2 are 180°'s apart, line 2 and line 3 are 120° apart but line 3 and line 1 would be 240° degrees apart!
    I know there are guys on here that will say we've been using phase converters for 1000's of years with out a problem!
    I would think the manufacturer should have the last word on what does and does not void the warranty.

    Here is some very interesting reading. I would recommend reading the whole thing several times and pay close attention to the difference between rotary(motor-
    generator), static and vfd.

    http://www.kayind.com/home/faq
    the rotary converter uses the single phase coming in to spin the converter the other phases are generated.
    If you look up "Induction Generator" you can see what they do

  22. #97
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    Re: 3 phase converter power?

    Thanks Ale, that answered all my questions.
    Sounds like your set.

  23. #98
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    Re: 3 phase converter power?

    As far as the legs being degrees apart. A friend of mine runs 3 cnc mills and lathes off of single phase with rotary converters. He has a phase "aligned box" after the rotary to change the orientation back to proper. He said he had an electrician from the machine company that did it a lot.

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