SMAW beginner, phase 1
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  1. #1
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    SMAW beginner, phase 1

    Have been mig and tig welding, but decided I should be able to stick weld as well. I feel like I am able to lay down 6013 rods fairly well considering my short time practicing. But running 6011’s seems to be a whole ‘nuther animal. Advice welcome and appreciated.

    Running them DCEP off my Vulcan ProTig 200 110 plug (so 80a max, for now). 3/32 6013 seemed to like 60-70amps. Even got the slag to peel itself a couple times.

    Picture of a pad of 6013 beads. Not perfect, but much improved and only my 2nd practice session. So was fiddling with angle/speed/arc length a bit. I will take it.

    Now, for the fugly. This pic is actually flattering to how the pad looks in real life. I present.... a first-timer pad of 6011 beads.

    Mostly 3/32, couple (ahem) beads with 1/16. Just getting it to light up is way harder with the 6011’s for me. Sputters out, sticks, sticks hard, and just generally doesnt want to light and stay lit. Varied amps from 25-60 plus on 1/16 and 45 to 80 on 3/32. Doesnt seem to help with the sticking and arc starting by increasing amps. 3/32 seemed to like about 60 amps best.

    The (ahem) better (cough, cough) beads I was making little circles and moving about as fast as I could while making tiny circles. Seemed to keep the arc going better and lay down a more consistent bead. Also had to keep a super tight arc to keep them lit. Like basically touching. What do you see and how do I fix it?

  2. #2
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    Re: SMAW beginner, phase 1

    Soapstone. Lines.

  3. #3
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    Re: SMAW beginner, phase 1

    took me 1 millisecond to figure out you are on 120 volt circuit and obviously machine will experience severe voltage drop trying to supply well over 20 amps (could easily be over 40 amps) through a NEMA 15 plug and probable 14ga wire going back to circuit breaker which had trouble supplying over 15 amps
    .
    when you actually weld the supply voltage is dropping below 105 and even below 100 volts so at other end of welding machine you are experiencing low arc voltage. 6013 requires the lowest arc voltage to run
    .
    99.9999% of inverters at 60 weld amps need 15 amps at 120 volt outlet and at 80 weld amps you need 20 or more amps at 120 volt outlet.
    .
    its like fire truck with 2" dia fire hoses connecting to a 1/2" garden hose faucet and fireman complaining he got water flow volume and pressure problems

  4. #4
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    SMAW beginner, phase 1

    Quote Originally Posted by WNY_TomB View Post
    took me 1 millisecond to figure out you are on 120 volt circuit and obviously machine will experience severe voltage drop trying to supply well over 20 amps (could easily be over 40 amps) through a NEMA 15 plug and probable 14ga wire going back to circuit breaker which had trouble supplying over 15 amps
    .
    when you actually weld the supply voltage is dropping below 105 and even below 100 volts so at other end of welding machine you are experiencing low arc voltage. 6013 requires the lowest arc voltage to run
    .
    99.9999% of inverters at 60 weld amps need 15 amps at 120 volt outlet and at 80 weld amps you need 20 or more amps at 120 volt outlet.
    .
    its like fire truck with 2" dia fire hoses connecting to a 1/2" garden hose faucet and fireman complaining he got water flow volume and pressure problems
    Yeah, I know I am under powered. Will have an available 220 at the shop in the next few weeks. (Possibly getting a Bobcat as well, but thats another story)But, for now, I have what I have. Just met with the electrician today and it’s in his hands now.

    Did have better luck running 1/16” 6011 today on some 1/16” material. Just have to wait to be able to do much more.

    Really hope it is just a power supply issue and having the power available will make it that much easier.


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    Last edited by BKToad; 01-07-2019 at 07:23 PM.

  5. #5
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    Re: SMAW beginner, phase 1

    Might want to slow down just a bit and make a slight weave.

  6. #6
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    Re: SMAW beginner, phase 1

    I'm sure people will argue this, but my experience is that 60xx rods just don't do well on a DC inverter. You can weld with them, but don't expect great results. Welding on 220v may help, but not a lot.

  7. #7
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    Re: SMAW beginner, phase 1

    Quote Originally Posted by Dee_veloper View Post
    I'm sure people will argue this, but my experience is that 60xx rods just don't do well on a DC inverter. You can weld with them, but don't expect great results. Welding on 220v may help, but not a lot.
    Some inverters are designed to run celullosic rods and do it fairly well. Also, 6013 runs well pretty much with any inverter.

  8. #8
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    Re: SMAW beginner, phase 1

    Quote Originally Posted by Bonzoo View Post
    Soapstone. Lines.
    My bandsaw cuts crookid’so I wanted to practice welding crookid’


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  9. #9
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    Re: SMAW beginner, phase 1

    never had trouble running 6011 on inverters, 6010 many inverters dont run well.
    .
    both rods if 1/8 runs 70-130 amps 6011 will run ok at 70-110 and 6010 barely run 70-100. basically inverters have unstable arc if you are at the maximum amps rod can take. if you stay at mid point they run better
    .
    and of course there is minimum rod size in general 1/8 dia rod is for welding 1/8 to 1/4 thick material
    3/32 rod is best used on 3/32 to 3/16 thick material
    .
    1/16 dia rods not much good for 1/8 and thicker cause even at max amps rod can take they dont put out enough heat for thick material. you will get cold starts and more easily get lack of fusion.
    .
    weld rod size to part thickness and weld amp chart with different amps for fillet welding in flat position and vertical up and vertical down. weld amp chart will get you close, you adjust slightly depending on your machine and your ability. professionals often will use much bigger rod size and higher amps and go very fast. chart is more reasonable settings for average occasional welder
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  10. #10
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    Re: SMAW beginner, phase 1

    For the most part, it's the smaller inverters that don't like 6010/cellulose electrodes. The larger inverters run 6010 well. Xmt 350, invertec 275, invertec v350, all run 6010 well.
    Many of the new smaller inverters from Miller and Esab are beginning to run 6010 also.
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  11. #11
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    Re: SMAW beginner, phase 1

    Quote Originally Posted by snoeproe View Post
    For the most part, it's the smaller inverters that don't like 6010/cellulose electrodes. The larger inverters run 6010 well. Xmt 350, invertec 275, invertec v350, all run 6010 well.
    Many of the new smaller inverters from Miller and Esab are beginning to run 6010 also.
    its not the machine as such, its the manufacture not putting the feature on the smaller machines. they probably figure big machine will be used by pro's so they want 6010, and small ones are used by hobby guys who won't ever use it. makes it a real pain if you want to use 6010 way up the ladder/scaffold and only want to take up a small machine.
    a few crowds make them but usually very $$$.

    personally i would like to change one of the stick/tig machines (that has a stick/tig switch) and change the tig side into a 6010 mode.

  12. #12
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    Re: SMAW beginner, phase 1

    Quote Originally Posted by tweake View Post
    its not the machine as such, its the manufacture not putting the feature on the smaller machines. they probably figure big machine will be used by pro's so they want 6010, and small ones are used by hobby guys who won't ever use it. makes it a real pain if you want to use 6010 way up the ladder/scaffold and only want to take up a small machine.
    a few crowds make them but usually very $$$.

    personally i would like to change one of the stick/tig machines (that has a stick/tig switch) and change the tig side into a 6010 mode.
    The manufacturer didn't put the features there because most inverters are developed outside of the US. And cellulose rods like 6010 are not used in those countries. They use 6013, 7014, 7018, 8018 etc.

    6010 requires higher voltages which would probably make the inverter more expensive so unless the market demands it, they don't support it.
    Last edited by Pete.S.; 01-11-2019 at 09:46 AM.

  13. #13
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    Re: SMAW beginner, phase 1

    [QUOTE=BKToad;8673025]My bandsaw cuts crookid’so I wanted to practice welding crookid’

    Ahhhhhhhh, NO ! REAL welders go straight on crooked cuts. The finished product will be straight and solid.

    As for inverters and 6010 stick the Miller CST 280's are great and their 304's too . Many like the CST's over the 304's, personal choice. Those little baby machines do have issues with 6010 and sometimes 6011. Each brand is different.

    Getting into a comfortable position with stick can be tough. Use two hands and and rest on table and move along. Sometimes using one hand moving wrist can be difficult when learning. Some guys cut the rods making them shorter for better control. Many just grab the rod lower and wiggle in holder to remove coating getting to bare rod. The shorter rod will definitely help.
    Providing a well lighted area and a quality hood makes a difference seeing . Positioning yourself is in learning can be tough. As you progress you'll see what works best for you. Sometime resting your arm or hand on a 2x4 or a piece of channel will make it easier too.

  14. #14
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    Re: SMAW beginner, phase 1

    Quote Originally Posted by tweake View Post
    makes it a real pain if you want to use 6010 way up the ladder/scaffold and only want to take up a small machine.
    It's not too bad, it only weighs 15lbs, and can smoke a 6010 real quick.

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  15. #15
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    Re: SMAW beginner, phase 1

    Quote Originally Posted by Oscar View Post
    It's not too bad, it only weighs 15lbs, and can smoke a 6010 real quick.

    + 15 lbs in cables...and a $1500 hole in your pocket.

  16. #16
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    Re: SMAW beginner, phase 1

    Quote Originally Posted by Pete.S. View Post
    The manufacturer didn't put the features there because most inverters are developed outside of the US. And cellulose rods like 6010 are not used in those countries. They use 6013, 7014, 7018, 8018 etc.

    6010 requires higher voltages which would probably make the inverter more expensive so unless the market demands it, they don't support it.
    i disagree with that.
    we have USA brands here and the high amp version has 6010 but the low powered version doesn't. in fact they seam to do away with all the adjustable features.
    we also get euro brands here, some of which have 6010 mode. so even over there where they are known to use 6013 instead of 6010, the still make welders with 6010 mode.
    also plenty of low cost inverters around that have stick/tig mode, which is simply a voltage adjustment. so its not hard to actually put the feature in.

    i think its more down to marketing and price point. if you want the features you have to go buy the higher amp machines at much higher price.
    same thing is done with other products where every version from basic to top end is identical, they are all the exact same product, except they change the software to enable extra features so they have a selling point and up the price to make more $$$.

    i understand this has been done with welders where you could buy an add on card which enables the hidden features.

  17. #17
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    Re: SMAW beginner, phase 1

    Quote Originally Posted by Oscar View Post
    It's not too bad, it only weighs 15lbs, and can smoke a 6010 real quick.
    i've been drooling over the EWM version of that. tho 160 amp (which means it can plug into any domestic power socket).
    but $$$$$.
    i just wish someone would make a simple machine that has 6010 mode on it instead of a tig mode. cheap enough that you don't worry to much if you drop it off the roof.

  18. #18
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    Re: SMAW beginner, phase 1

    Quote Originally Posted by tweake View Post
    i disagree with that.
    we have USA brands here and the high amp version has 6010 but the low powered version doesn't. in fact they seam to do away with all the adjustable features.
    we also get euro brands here, some of which have 6010 mode. so even over there where they are known to use 6013 instead of 6010, the still make welders with 6010 mode.
    also plenty of low cost inverters around that have stick/tig mode, which is simply a voltage adjustment. so its not hard to actually put the feature in.

    i think its more down to marketing and price point. if you want the features you have to go buy the higher amp machines at much higher price.
    same thing is done with other products where every version from basic to top end is identical, they are all the exact same product, except they change the software to enable extra features so they have a selling point and up the price to make more $$$.

    i understand this has been done with welders where you could buy an add on card which enables the hidden features.
    Yes, but you forget that when the inverters arrived not one of them could run 6010. Manufacturers where for instance Japanese and Italian companies even if they where sold as US brands (like ThermalArc that where japanese Sanrex). ESAB for instance is one of the world largest manufacturer of fillers and they don't make a 6010 or 6011 rod for the European market. Many (all?) of Lincoln Electric's inverters sold in Europe are made in Poland and I don't believe any of them have a 6010 mode, certainly not the two of them that we have at work. I think some of these are the same that you have in New Zealand and Australia but they are not available in the US.

    So while it may not be hard to put the feature in, it's not there from the beginning because it wasn't relevant in the markets where all inverters where initially designed and manufactured. Now it's different because inverters have become more prevalent in the US and US customers want 6010 so whatever goes to the US market should have it. And many machines are the same worldwide so they get the same features. So today if a machine has it or not may not have a technical reason, unless it's a rebranded machine designed for foreign markets that doesn't use 6010.
    Last edited by Pete.S.; 01-12-2019 at 12:12 PM.

  19. #19
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    Re: SMAW beginner, phase 1

    home depot sells 160 amp machine 60% duty cycle rated for 6010 and has arc force control knob too and its $160.
    .
    sure the $130 machine not rated for 6010 have to use 6011
    .
    maybe next generation inverters are cheaper to make

  20. #20
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    Re: SMAW beginner, phase 1

    Quote Originally Posted by Pete.S. View Post
    Yes, but you forget that when the inverters arrived not one of them could run 6010. Manufacturers where for instance Japanese and Italian companies even if they where sold as US brands (like ThermalArc that where japanese Sanrex). ESAB for instance is one of the world largest manufacturer of fillers and they don't make a 6010 or 6011 rod for the European market. Many (all?) of Lincoln Electric's inverters sold in Europe are made in Poland and I don't believe any of them have a 6010 mode, certainly not the two of them that we have at work. I think some of these are the same that you have in New Zealand and Australia but they are not available in the US.

    So while it may not be hard to put the feature in, it's not there from the beginning because it wasn't relevant in the markets where all inverters where initially designed and manufactured. Now it's different because inverters have become more prevalent in the US and US customers want 6010 so whatever goes to the US market should have it. And many machines are the same worldwide so they get the same features. So today if a machine has it or not may not have a technical reason, unless it's a rebranded machine designed for foreign markets that doesn't use 6010.
    .
    European cellulose rods are available though not called 6010 or 6011 cause they got there own naming system. and they got European rod thats a mix of cellulose and rutile a sort of mix of 6011 and 6013

  21. #21
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    Re: SMAW beginner, phase 1

    Quote Originally Posted by WNY_TomB View Post
    .
    and they got European rod thats a mix of cellulose and rutile a sort of mix of 6011 and 6013
    afaik all 6013 is cellulose and rutile. what changes is the %. some have higher rutile content than others. eg double rutile 6013RR
    tho i think there is a brand that has a very high cellulose version, a lot higher than the usual 6013RC thats available everywhere.

  22. #22
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    Re: SMAW beginner, phase 1

    Quote Originally Posted by tweake View Post
    afaik all 6013 is cellulose and rutile. what changes is the %. some have higher rutile content than others. eg double rutile 6013RR
    tho i think there is a brand that has a very high cellulose version, a lot higher than the usual 6013RC thats available everywhere.
    yes its often a mix and i am not sure what % when called only 6011 and only 6013.
    .
    it seems Europeans have more mixing of the flux. obviously mixing basic and cellulose or 7018 and 6011 defeats the purpose of low hydrogen rod if it has water producing cellulose mixed in the flux

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