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  1. #26
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    Jun 2008
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    New Plymouth ID
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    923

    Re: starters and battery cranking amps have questions

    I looked at the hammer crimpers that looked like a half *** set up I had them professionally crimped didn't see what tool they used
    Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

  2. #27
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    Jul 2008
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    Long Island
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    Re: starters and battery cranking amps have questions

    Quote Originally Posted by Xsbank View Post
    Soldering is the WORST way to make a cable. Crimping is the only way, if you cut a crimped terminal open the strands will look like a solid cross-section of copper. If you buy the cable at a marine store they will lend you the proper crimper or make them for you, saving a lot of effort. You can buy a hammer crimper from Blue Point but hammer crimpers are a bit inferior to the bolt-cutter style.
    Agreed. More to this point, if you look at the wire strands in cross section, they should look round (or maybe slightly oval) when cut, but will look like hexagons when the crimp is properly performed.

  3. #28
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Long Island, NY
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    579

    Re: starters and battery cranking amps have questions

    Quote Originally Posted by 12V71 View Post
    Honestly, I despise those solder pellet terminals, I've cut a few apart and only a quarter of the strands soldered and the rest were coated in flux. I use good crimp type terminals and a big azz Greenlee crimper. Or one of those hammer type crimpers in the shop press.
    Just want to second the recommendation of use crimp type terminals (lugs) and a hydraulic crimp tool. If you can get your hands on a Greenlee HK06FT, you will not have to worry about having specific size dies.

    Heavy duty battery crimp tool work borrows tools, technology, and products from line work (electrical grid power line and equipment work). Point being it may be easier to find someone you know who has the tools you could use by searching out someone who works on power lines / equipment, rather than necessarily someone who owns/has such tools exclusively for battery cable crimping.

  4. #29

    Re: starters and battery cranking amps have questions

    In the cold, you could be drawing all the amps your batteries can safely deliver and more. So if you are short cycling, you could quickly drain your batteries below the 60 percent mark, and do permanent damage. It is best to let your equipment run at the least 20 minutes, in cold weather. Also, check your voltage after a start to see if your alternator is keeping up with the drain. If you do not have 13.85 volts after starting there is something wrong with the charging system as well. If a brand new battery drops to 60 percent capacity, we have to throw it away.

    But cables and terminations are always a cheap and easy thing that should be done, regularly.

    Sincerely,

    William McCormick
    If I wasn't so.....crazy, I wouldn't try to act normal, and you would be afraid.

  5. #30
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    Jan 2004
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    Northern Cal., Shasta County
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    9,093

    Re: starters and battery cranking amps have questions

    Quote Originally Posted by idacal View Post
    does anyone have a cheat sheet on the dimensions of a ( to spec) crimped 2 0 cable? could make a round die one no problem if I could find specs or a hex wouldn't be to hard either
    I've got an ancient Burndy tool. Sort of sad actually, cost a fortune back in the day and I only use it once or twice every couple of years. It's a two time hand-me-down from wayyy back. Real beast, but the only way to go back in the day. Now they all use a cordless crimp set. Keep in mind that the dies are based on a certain wall thickness lug on stranded wires. Go using cheap thin wall lugs and things could change. Anyway the die for 2/0 is a hex and measures .619 flat to flat. Notice on the chart the die for 1/0 and 2/0 are the same one for quite a range of lugs. The die for a number 2 was .402.
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    "The things that will destroy America are prosperity at any price, peace at any price, safety first instead of duty first, the love of soft living and the get rich quick theory of life." -Theodore Roosevelt

  6. #31
    Join Date
    May 2014
    Location
    Central Wa. state
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    2,341

    Re: starters and battery cranking amps have questions

    Quote Originally Posted by William McCormick View Post
    In the cold, you could be drawing all the amps your batteries can safely deliver and more. So if you are short cycling, you could quickly drain your batteries below the 60 percent mark, and do permanent damage. It is best to let your equipment run at the least 20 minutes, in cold weather. Also, check your voltage after a start to see if your alternator is keeping up with the drain. If you do not have 13.85 volts after starting there is something wrong with the charging system as well. If a brand new battery drops to 60 percent capacity, we have to throw it away.

    But cables and terminations are always a cheap and easy thing that should be done, regularly.

    Sincerely,

    William McCormick
    13.85 volts might be a bit low for a 24 volt system....

  7. #32
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    Apr 2011
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    minnesota
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    Re: starters and battery cranking amps have questions

    Soldering can work if done right. With that starter and batteries I would go with 3/0 or even 4/0. I have melted plenty of cables over the years.
    Millermatic 252
    millermatic 175
    miller 300 Thunderbolt
    lincoln ranger 250
    smith torches
    lots of bfh's
    If it dont fit get a bigger hammer

  8. #33

    Re: starters and battery cranking amps have questions

    Quote Originally Posted by 12V71 View Post
    13.85 volts might be a bit low for a 24 volt system....
    To each battery.

    Sincerely,

    William Mccormick
    If I wasn't so.....crazy, I wouldn't try to act normal, and you would be afraid.

  9. #34

    Re: starters and battery cranking amps have questions

    Quote Originally Posted by 12V71 View Post
    13.85 volts might be a bit low for a 24 volt system....
    27.7 volts across both batteries.

    Sincerely,

    William McCormick
    If I wasn't so.....crazy, I wouldn't try to act normal, and you would be afraid.

  10. #35
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    New Plymouth ID
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    923

    Re: starters and battery cranking amps have questions

    thank you sandy that looks like an incredible tool when you need it that information is hard to find
    batterys are all barely a year old and they are 8 d size so i hate carrying them much less replacing them but its running now thanks for all the help
    Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

  11. #36
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    May 2014
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    Manitoba Canada
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    Re: starters and battery cranking amps have questions

    I don't suppose a similar cranking power starter is available in 12 volt? We had John Deere tractors that used 2 12 volt batteries ( the 5020 even went so far as to use 4 6 volt batteries) in series to fire up a 24 volt starter and they were hard on starters. Similar to what was previously mentioned, they also drew 12 volts off one battery for accessories and lights, so the draw was constantly unequal. In theory, the 2 batteries in series will offer up more cranking amps, but in practice the minute you have a poor connection, the voltage drops to the 12 volts of the remaining connected battery which is hard on starters. I suspect your old cables were having a similar impact and reducing available voltage to the starter. Same situation occurs as one battery gets weaker than the other. We switched our machines over to 12 volt starters with a single suitcase style battery and a full 12 volt solenoid controlled source for accessories. Lights are better than they ever were, and I very seldom have any issues with the starter, and it starts great. We also ditched the 24 volt generator for a 100 amp single wire Delco 12 volt alternator and it was worth every penny of the conversion.
    Last edited by whtbaron; 02-04-2019 at 10:34 PM.
    F-225 amp Forney AC Stick
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    Les

  12. #37
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    Apr 2011
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    minnesota
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    Re: starters and battery cranking amps have questions

    The old Deere 24 volt systems were junk. The newer systems are better.
    Millermatic 252
    millermatic 175
    miller 300 Thunderbolt
    lincoln ranger 250
    smith torches
    lots of bfh's
    If it dont fit get a bigger hammer

  13. #38
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    Jun 2008
    Location
    New Plymouth ID
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    923

    Re: starters and battery cranking amps have questions

    my favorite bone headed move i did, i did was not get the old cables tight enough tapped it on with a hammer and didn't tighten it, the nut was stripped. I hit the start button it melted 3/4 of the post off in a flash thats why there is 2 1 year old batteries in it. that 30 seconds of time saving cost me 400 dollars. I dont know if they make a 2800 amp cold cranking amp battery, which is what 2 of these battery are. I think anyway I do it Im stuck using cables, either in a series or parallel.
    Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

  14. #39
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    May 2014
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    Manitoba Canada
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    Re: starters and battery cranking amps have questions

    Even the "newer" 4440's used two 6 volt batteries in series on a 12 volt starter. For the reasons above most people (myself included) rewired them for two twelve volt batteries ( the battery cases were integral to the cab steps and there wasn't a lot of room for a suitcase battery). Whether you do it with two batteries is irrelevant, the point is to get the proper voltage to the starter and it's a lot easier to do with a 12 volt starter.
    F-225 amp Forney AC Stick
    230 amp Sears AC Stick
    Lincoln 180C MIG
    Victor Medalist 350 O/A

    Les

  15. #40
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    May 2014
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    Central Wa. state
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    Re: starters and battery cranking amps have questions

    Quote Originally Posted by whtbaron View Post
    Even the "newer" 4440's used two 6 volt batteries in series on a 12 volt starter. For the reasons above most people (myself included) rewired them for two twelve volt batteries ( the battery cases were integral to the cab steps and there wasn't a lot of room for a suitcase battery). Whether you do it with two batteries is irrelevant, the point is to get the proper voltage to the starter and it's a lot easier to do with a 12 volt starter.
    Respectfully, I totally disagree when it comes to the big industrial stuff. 24V will draw half the amps of a 12V starter meaning you can use lighter cables and put half the load on terminals and connections. I understand the old 4440's and their problems, but again, mostly connection issues. Heck, I had a customer with a bunch of 4430's that only worked in warm weather and we put just one 12V battery in the left hand step and they worked fine.

    I've been around many large diesels with both 12 and 24V systems... If they were properly designed and maintained both worked about the same. A good example was 2 identical 12V71 Detroit powered drilling compressors, both had two 8D batteries, both had 50MT starters, One was 12V, one was 24V. The 24V machine was less trouble. The 12V machine had been "converted" by orders of a well meaning supervisor and a couple of mechanics that didn't question him. All because he didn't know how to jumpstart a 24V rig.

  16. #41
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    Re: starters and battery cranking amps have questions

    Whatever works... sometimes it's easier to be green...
    F-225 amp Forney AC Stick
    230 amp Sears AC Stick
    Lincoln 180C MIG
    Victor Medalist 350 O/A

    Les

  17. #42
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    Jun 2008
    Location
    New Plymouth ID
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    923

    Re: starters and battery cranking amps have questions

    how do you jump start a 24 volt system ? I pull the negative, use the service truck and charge each battery individually is there some cheating way to do it at once? I have used a bobcat welder on dc in the past but after a battery blew up I quit doing that
    Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

  18. #43
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    May 2014
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    Re: starters and battery cranking amps have questions

    Quote Originally Posted by idacal View Post
    how do you jump start a 24 volt system ? I pull the negative, use the service truck and charge each battery individually is there some cheating way to do it at once? I have used a bobcat welder on dc in the past but after a battery blew up I quit doing that
    One truck on each battery is the best.

  19. #44
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    Apr 2011
    Location
    minnesota
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    Re: starters and battery cranking amps have questions

    24volt charger. Otherwise I put 12 volts into the first battery that’s grounded to the frame
    Millermatic 252
    millermatic 175
    miller 300 Thunderbolt
    lincoln ranger 250
    smith torches
    lots of bfh's
    If it dont fit get a bigger hammer

  20. #45
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Outside of Raleigh, NC
    Posts
    758

    Re: starters and battery cranking amps have questions

    Quote Originally Posted by idacal View Post
    how do you jump start a 24 volt system ? I pull the negative, use the service truck and charge each battery individually is there some cheating way to do it at once? I have used a bobcat welder on dc in the past but after a battery blew up I quit doing that
    I’ll either jump it from another piece of 24V equipment, use my Trailblazer pro, or if there is enough time I’ll put a 24V charger on it.

    The problem with 24V chargers is that if the batteries are totally dead you won’t have enough juice to jump them.

    When I use my trailblazer pro, I’ll have someone in the cab of the equipment cranking it over while I’m slowing increasing the welder output. Usually I have to crank it up to 150 - 200A in order to spin the starter (and overcome the drain into the dead batteries). As soon as the equipment starts I crank the power back down.
    Miller Trailblazer Pro 350D
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