starters and battery cranking amps have questions
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  1. #1
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    starters and battery cranking amps have questions

    I have a piece of equipment that eats starters on 1 to 3 a year I have always used the 40 mt series starters they are rated a 6 kw it has 2 aught wiring maybe 3' run and 2 8d batterys running on a 24 volt system will not start in the cold and various other problems . this time I researched and realized they made a bigger one that would fit so I purchase a 50 series starter they are a 9kw starter. truck started at 20 degrees no problems usually that would require tarp and heat.. I used it for a couple of days and it locked its self in. I took it back to the starter place and told me I have a low voltage problem the thing a ma bob had welded its self to the plate, that was the reason it kept running, and popped loose when we pulled it out and bounced it around in the back of the pickup the starter tested out fine on the bench. now I dont know what to do go back to smaller starter, change to more batterys, I have 1400 cca at 24 volts, switch to a 4 bank of 31 series batterys that would give me 2200 cca at 24 volts then what size wire should I run for this just need some advice.
    engine is only a 3406a but it has 4 pumps and a 800 cfm compressor that are hard coupled to it so a lot of parasitic drag
    Last edited by idacal; 01-11-2019 at 09:03 PM.
    Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

  2. #2
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    Re: starters and battery cranking amps have questions

    That setup should be just fine even with the 50MT starter. Sounds like you may have a cable terminal that has some resistance issues. 3' of 2/0 was a standard setup in most scrapers I've worked on with 12V71's and a 50MT. A common culprit is the positive to negative jumper if its the cheap type with lead terminals pressed on the cable. An infrared gun after an extended crank session will show you the bad terminal.
    Welded solenoid contacts seem to be a common issue with today's "made in where ever" replacement solenoids too.
    Last edited by 12V71; 01-11-2019 at 09:16 PM.

  3. #3
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    Re: starters and battery cranking amps have questions

    cables haven't been changed in a while but most of the ends have been replaced with the ones that there is a pellet of solder in and you heat till melt but I will try a temperature gun. ends were replace because if any terminal was loose there was smoke, and poof no battery terminal, melted a few off. guess I will do all new battery cables I hate the thought of throwing out 2 almost new 8d batterys. so cables first
    Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

  4. #4
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    Re: starters and battery cranking amps have questions

    I see your edit now, 4 pumps and the compressor. Stay with the 50MT it actually draws less current than a 40 for a given load. I've worked on Ingersoll T-4's with the same cable setup and a 50MT starter. Check the terminals and the battery charge. If the alternator isn't getting those batteries fully charged, that could be a problem too.

  5. #5
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    Re: starters and battery cranking amps have questions

    Quote Originally Posted by idacal View Post
    cables haven't been changed in a while but most of the ends have been replaced with the ones that there is a pellet of solder in and you heat till melt but I will try a temperature gun. ends were replace because if any terminal was loose there was smoke, and poof no battery terminal, melted a few off. guess I will do all new battery cables I hate the thought of throwing out 2 almost new 8d batterys. so cables first
    Honestly, I despise those solder pellet terminals, I've cut a few apart and only a quarter of the strands soldered and the rest were coated in flux. I use good crimp type terminals and a big azz Greenlee crimper. Or one of those hammer type crimpers in the shop press.

  6. #6
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    Re: starters and battery cranking amps have questions


    idacal


    Quote Originally Posted by idacal View Post
    engine is only a 3406a but it has 4 pumps and a 800 cfm compressor
    that are hard coupled to it so a lot of parasitic drag
    You have big air - consider . . .

    https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C...iz.cg6JsBgQfds

    I'm unsure: is the parasitic drag - mechanical or electrical . . . ?


    Opus

  7. #7
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    Re: starters and battery cranking amps have questions

    Quote Originally Posted by OPUS FERRO View Post

    idacal




    You have big air - consider . . .

    https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C...iz.cg6JsBgQfds

    I'm unsure: is the parasitic drag - mechanical or electrical . . . ?


    Opus
    Air starters are very strong, but they need a huge reservoir... 120 gallons minimum. and that does not last long in cold weather. I worked in a strip mine once and we started rigs with air starts with a 250 CFM compressor. That worked pretty well. Continuous cranking ability there. 230 volt block and oil heaters helped too.

  8. #8
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    Re: starters and battery cranking amps have questions

    air is not an option, wish it was, the system drains down when shut off will not restart with pressure in the tanks by parasitic I meant the compressor is rotating and the hydraulic pumps are rotating no psi just cold oil. about done with cold this year. next year I will have an insulated heat resistant tarp made for it that can be placed and pulled back easily like a tarp system on a dumpster hauler then a little propane heater will keep the temp up enough to start. thats what we did this year, just tarp it and a couple propane heaters aimed at the block. Thats good to know about the solder connections. I will start looking for a Crimp tool could probably make one for a press pretty easy
    Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

  9. #9
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    Re: starters and battery cranking amps have questions

    Quote Originally Posted by idacal View Post
    air is not an option, wish it was, the system drains down when shut off will not restart with pressure in the tanks by parasitic I meant the compressor is rotating and the hydraulic pumps are rotating no psi just cold oil. about done with cold this year. next year I will have an insulated heat resistant tarp made for it that can be placed and pulled back easily like a tarp system on a dumpster hauler then a little propane heater will keep the temp up enough to start. thats what we did this year, just tarp it and a couple propane heaters aimed at the block. Thats good to know about the solder connections. I will start looking for a Crimp tool could probably make one for a press pretty easy
    Hydraulic hose crimper works good too.

  10. #10
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    Re: starters and battery cranking amps have questions

    does anyone have a cheat sheet on the dimensions of a ( to spec) crimped 2 0 cable? could make a round die one no problem if I could find specs or a hex wouldn't be to hard either
    Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

  11. #11
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    Re: starters and battery cranking amps have questions

    Found this article nice boring read but has some information https://www.pearsonhighered.com/asse...0132373629.pdf way down in it it says 2/0 wire in a 24 volt system is good for 200” overall lenth on a 9 kw system
    Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

  12. #12
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    Re: starters and battery cranking amps have questions

    I’ve seen a few bad cables on 12v systems.
    (JD6068) always in winter. Easiest way I
    know to find them is to check voltage at
    starter while cranking and compare it to
    voltage at battery while cranking. If they
    aren’t close, bad cable is found by check-
    ing for voltage across each cable
    while cranking.
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  13. #13
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    Re: starters and battery cranking amps have questions

    Cat makes flywheel housings with 2 starter openings - one on each side. Your application may even have one.

    Have you monitored amp draw and voltage loss (from batteries to starter as jpump5 described) across the circuit while cranking to see if the 40MT starter is operating at or above spec amperage or at low voltage? The "welded" contact washer in the solenoid would indicate excessive amp draw and/or cranking. As voltage drops, amperage (and heat) increases.

    I agree with 12V71 on stepping up to a 50MT for the reduced amp draw if load tests indicate the 40 is operating at/near maximum rating.
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  14. #14
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    Re: starters and battery cranking amps have questions

    Are they new or rebuilt ? All from the same place?

  15. #15
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    Re: starters and battery cranking amps have questions

    Have you checked distance from starter hole to flywheel compared to starter flange to bendix when extended?

  16. #16
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    Re: starters and battery cranking amps have questions

    One other question here for Idacal, are you tapping the grounded battery for 12v power for floodlights, etc? that is a no go situation because the that battery will never fully recharge. I've seen it a few times when the drillers wanted more light for short days and didn't want to pay extra for 24V lights.

  17. #17
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    Re: starters and battery cranking amps have questions

    I’ve been chasing a similar problem on a piece of heavy equipment. In my case the machine eats starter solenoids about twice a year. The problem is the transfer bar at the back of the solenoid that transfers current from the battery post to the actual starter. It would start arcing and the contact surface would pit and have oxides on it.

    What I’ve discovered so far - positive battery cable had corrosion in one end. Replaced it with a 2/0 cable Also ran a dedicated 2/0 ground cable directly from the battery post to the starter. Changed complete starter (three times in 10 years), including changing brands and suppliers.

    Changed ignition switches - still had the problem. Finally replaced all of the wiring from the switch to the starter, and put in a separate rocker switch to operate the starter drive. Thus far it’s worked. I think that the old wiring may have had some resistance and the solenoid wasn’t always getting full current to it’s electromagnet, resulting in a weak force against the transfer bar.

    Who knows - may eat another drive in the next few months. Sure can be frustrating to chase down though.
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  18. #18
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    Re: starters and battery cranking amps have questions

    Investigate to see if the starter needs to be shimmed if it is hanging up into the flywheel. I have seen GM starters on cars that would hang up if they were incorrectly shimmed. Don't know about this application but it is something else to look for if it has happened more than once. With it coming loose after it was off as you said, this is a possibility

  19. #19
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    Re: starters and battery cranking amps have questions

    Quote Originally Posted by 12V71 View Post
    One other question here for Idacal, are you tapping the grounded battery for 12v power for floodlights, etc? that is a no go situation because the that battery will never fully recharge. I've seen it a few times when the drillers wanted more light for short days and didn't want to pay extra for 24V lights.
    Yeah, tapping 12V on a 24V system is a bad practice. It's worse than just one battery not fully charging. The other will be overcharged.
    You don't have to go with 24V lights though. The alternative option is to use a battery equalizing circuit.

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