Trapdoor Gin Pole Project underway, feedback/suggestions appreciated.
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  1. #1
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    Trapdoor Gin Pole Project underway, feedback/suggestions appreciated.

    First the mandantory disclaimer I am not an ME, nor have I done any calculations on what I am building. This is only a ongoing documentation of what I am building to suit my own needs. No warranty is stated or implied as to fitness and safety of what I am building. Use the info at your own risk! Etc, etc you get the gist.....
    It has finally started,
    After extinguishing all options on the remove and replace motor in the M135, I researched for what has to be over a year and came up with the preliminary design to follow (BTW the best sources of info is here on welding web if you want to build your own). The boom poles are sized the same as a truck on welding we with the outer legs 2 1/2" by 3/16" wall by 10' square tube, the inner tube is 2" by 1/4" wall by 10'. I will be using a separate sleeved lower leg that is patterned after the pole-setting trucks. I have a Hummper 12,000 lbs electric winch that is a planetary type that I might have to change out for a worm drive down the line (it has been said that the worm drives hold the load better and last longer with a gin pole setup) but its a run whatcha go situation. Pleas feel free to make comments and suggestions here are my crude drawings and parts I have on hand as of right now:
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    You will note that I have 3 different mast head designs, my favorite is the first one, but would be permanent unless I wanted to remove the hook to take it down. The third one is the simplest, but as of right now I am leaning towards the second one.
    Trapdoor pole storage ideas:
    A little more of where tentatively the boom storage would be:
    I think the wood runner between the bed and frame on the M135 was 1 1/2 to 2". I had some pieces of it but the wife thought it was termite infested and tossed it out for me. The design right now has the option of the poles in a trough (sp it doesn't quite look right) beside the wheel well inside the bed or under the bed along frame rails (only viable for those who single out the rear of their trucks like I have) or above the frame rails and beside to the outside of a 3 inch wood runner between bed and frame. The last one is the best for a nice bed. A M211 would have it easier I think.
    Now a question for the mechanical engineers, I think I am going to have the 5/16 plate for the mast head cut at a water jetting outfit. I am planning on drilling two holes in each sleeve the boom poles slip into the top most is a straight 3/4 hole and will use a bolt the bottom hole will be on an arc. The reason being that initial calculation of the triangle with the booms extended (20 feet long'ish) the angle is 9.56*. the booms shortened ((12 feet'ish) the angle is 15.97, not much difference. What do you guys say? Thanks!
    Pictures of the pile I got so far and my trucks
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    Could a moderator rotate my drawings please?


    *** see post #3 ***
    MinnesotaDave
    Last edited by MinnesotaDave; 05-09-2019 at 06:05 PM.

  2. #2
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    Re: Trapdoor Gin Pole Project underway, feedback/suggestions appreciated.

    Since I had to many pics here's the other truck and I am looking for a a good waterjet or plasma cutter in Los Angeles to cut out my mast head. Any feedback or suggestions please send them my way!
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  3. #3
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    Re: Trapdoor Gin Pole Project underway, feedback/suggestions appreciated.

    Here you go

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    Last edited by MinnesotaDave; 05-09-2019 at 06:04 PM.
    Dave J.

    Beware of false knowledge; it is more dangerous than ignorance. ~George Bernard Shaw~

    Airco 300 - Syncro 350
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    Tried being normal once, didn't take....I think it was a Tuesday.

  4. #4
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    Re: Trapdoor Gin Pole Project underway, feedback/suggestions appreciated.

    Thanks Dave!

  5. #5
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    Re: Trapdoor Gin Pole Project underway, feedback/suggestions appreciated.

    The cab over engine truck looks amazing. I have always liked that style truck.
    Millermatic 252 MIG
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  6. #6
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    Southern California
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    Re: Trapdoor Gin Pole Project underway, feedback/suggestions appreciated.

    +1 on that cabover. Strong looking rig.
    I am in Orange county, PM with location if you want help setting it up. No real experience with a set of gin poles but I have been around them and have a strong interest. Thinking about the difference between straight cut spur gears and worm drive, a worm gear tends to hold against the load. I have no experience with a planetary gearset which may run freely backwards. Lots of variables to be sure but a properly setup worm gear will not free-spool, you must drive it forwards or backwards. Can be an advantage for a winch seeing as how brakes are not as critical compared to a free running gearset. As you say "run whatcha brung".
    At work;
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  7. #7
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    missouri
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    Re: Trapdoor Gin Pole Project underway, feedback/suggestions appreciated.

    Like the drawings! Like the trucks!

  8. #8
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    Re: Trapdoor Gin Pole Project underway, feedback/suggestions appreciated.

    Thanks guys for the kind words, everything is progressing well working on the finalized masthead design, Instead of coming to a point I simplified it with a Bull nose on the horizontal plate and also shortened it' lenght to 20 inches. Not getting any younger so why make it HEAVY when it doesn't need to be.

  9. #9
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    Re: Trapdoor Gin Pole Project underway, feedback/suggestions appreciated.

    Todays update 5.11.19:
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    Does not have the bolts holes and slits for the lower holes yet, but otherwise finalized design. And it seems (at least from the other forums I am on people are interested in my thought process so here is a pic of a couple of pages in my notebook showing the thought process of how I got from point A to point B. Also note that there are notes as to the vertical plates, but those pictured are NOT the final design!
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  10. #10
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    Re: Trapdoor Gin Pole Project underway, feedback/suggestions appreciated.

    ​OK the width measurements went up a 1/2" to accommodate the upper snatch block and I got the Vertical pieces designed will dimension and darken tomorrow but here it is!
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    Looking at it on the screen I might trim some fat on the bottom between the pulley and the lower mount
    Last edited by gentrysgarage; 05-12-2019 at 12:06 AM.

  11. #11
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    Re: Trapdoor Gin Pole Project underway, feedback/suggestions appreciated.

    Gin Pole vertical with speed holes, also disregard the 1/2 width increase above I think I solved it in a better way!

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  12. #12
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    Re: Trapdoor Gin Pole Project underway, feedback/suggestions appreciated.

    It's very similar to the head on mine.
    Attached Images Attached Images  

  13. #13
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    Re: Trapdoor Gin Pole Project underway, feedback/suggestions appreciated.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob View Post
    It's very similar to the head on mine.
    Actually Bob, It is patterned after yours, I almost memorized yours and Irish's threads. Can you suggest any improvements and how far behind the boom pivot point should the lower pulley. Thanks for making that thread!

  14. #14
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    Re: Trapdoor Gin Pole Project underway, feedback/suggestions appreciated.

    You can put it even to just a couple inches behind it. Just use a larger size pulley like 6" or so. The height will make it easier on every thing to lift the poles up with the winch. The bottom of the pulley needs to be a couple inches higher than the pivot point on the poles though.

    You can see in the pic that the pulley is about the same as the pivots of the poles. The higher pulley is on links that stand up to make the bottom of the pulley higher than the pivot points of the poles.
    Attached Images Attached Images  

  15. #15
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    Re: Trapdoor Gin Pole Project underway, feedback/suggestions appreciated.

    Thanks Bob! That was the only measurement that I didn't get from your posting!

  16. #16
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    Re: Trapdoor Gin Pole Project underway, feedback/suggestions appreciated.

    Here are hopefully better pictures of the horizontal and verticals of the masthead. Please note the width between the 5/16 slits and the overall width of the horizontal pieces have yet to be finalized, both the pulley and hook are approx. 1 1/4 in width, would like an 1/8" between pulley and the vertical pieces, while not making it hard to hook the winch line to the lower mount and the radius slits might change a little as I am going to calculate the lowest possible angle of the booms themselves today.
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    Also going to attach the Warn winch mounting dims for the winch.


    OK the file is too big so here is the Warn PDF name, just Google it.... WAR_47801_INS_1.pdf

  17. #17
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    Re: Trapdoor Gin Pole Project underway, feedback/suggestions appreciated.

    I had this question as I was making my drawings so I posted this in the math section, but thought it would be good to show here. Thanks Again PropaneHotRod for the assist!


    Quote Originally Posted by gentrysgarage View Post
    Just like the story of Goldilocks and the 3 bears, I while I am not so shapely skinny (more roundish) and with very hairy legs. I am looking for what is just right. I plan to have my parts cut by a water jetter and know they hold tolerances quite well, but what about for fabricated assemblies? Everything was going quite well when 3 things caught my attention. But first here is the project at hand: https://weldingweb.com/showthread.ph...ns-appreciated

    Ok, back to our fairy tale:
    First was the fact that i specified 7/8" hole in the shackle brackets I got from an eBay seller, he sent what he had on the shelf which had a .900 hole. This caused me to purchase a bridge reamer.
    Second the specs from Warn winch specified .44 to .46 bore for the 7/16" mounting bolts .
    Thirdly I was also going to have the water jetter cut out some plate for the compressor bracket and for the rear motor mount for a Cummins 5.9 with a Bendix 550 air compressor and SAE 2 Flywheel housing adapter. I had a compressor bracket for a single cylinder compressor and the holes are 14.5-14.75 bore for a 12 mm bolt. The flywheel housing takes 12 mm bolt also but have no mount to compare hole size. I did find a blue print from Cummins Marine so I have the dims of the housing for the rear mount, but how big do I spec the bore. Of note here Cummins do break the gearcase housing that the compressor bolts to more than rarely and the flywheel housings regularly have to be helicoiled so I think the facotry specs might be a little on the large side to compensate for the myriad manufacturers casting the blocks and making the accessory parts.

    This also lead me to wonder about three thing that I should address before I finish the dims to send to the water jetter:
    how close to tolerances should I spread the horizontal pieces of the gin pole where the mast head bolts on to the 2" rectangular tube for easy assembly and reassembly while not compromising strength 1/16" clearance or more

    Should I spec larger bore holes for the the bolts in the horizontal same masthead to boom pole attachment.

    On the mounting bracket for the compressor should i stay with the 14.5-14.75 bore holes are make it a little tighter? What oversize do you recommend for the rear engine mounts.

    I'm just looking for a comfy bed without the scary surprise awakening! LOL!

    Thanks in Advance!
    Quote Originally Posted by propanehotrod View Post
    So why did you need a reamer for the shackle brackets if they are already bigger than the shackle pins?
    Quote Originally Posted by gentrysgarage View Post
    I did not know what I should hold my tolerances to, but I like to jig things up. I no longer work at a machine shop, but if I did I would have cut a piece of round stock down to .900 to register the 2 shackles that are the on each side of the lower boom pivot. I choose the lesser cost and got a deal on a reamer off of eBay. But I don't know how much "sloop" I could get away with. I used to follow the blueprint given and really don't know how much to put or how tight I need. Thanks for any insight you can give me!
    Quote Originally Posted by propanehotrod View Post
    Tolerance is one of those things that can make all the difference. Too tight or too loose will both cause problems and make your build more difficult. In the machine shop general practice is 1-2 fractional drill sizes over for all bolt holes. That translates to 1/64-1/32" In the Fab shop its generally 1/16" over and structural steel erection is often 1/8" over. It helps to keep in mind what it is you are working on. Bolting a winch to a flat plate requires no real precision. I would say Warn's specs are fine. When you are dealing with pins and shackles and such a little extra slop is your friend. Its much easier to assemble and work with. Machine components like your compressor bracket often have tighter tolerances but keep in mind its the clamping force of the bolt that does the work not the not the snugness of the bolt in the hole. 1.75mm seems pretty sloppy though. Id think 1mm over would be fine.
    One last thing. Around here many oilfield winch trucks were built with a torch and a welder. A really nice build might have involved a drill press. Super precision is not necessary for the majority of a winch truck and will make the build harder.
    Quote Originally Posted by gentrysgarage View Post
    EXACTLY what I was looking for Thanks PropaneHotRod!

  18. #18
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    Re: Trapdoor Gin Pole Project underway, feedback/suggestions appreciated.

    Plugging along all the holes drilled in the winch mounting plates starting on the boom plates! LOVE the mag drill even though it's not quite plumb anymore...(takes abit to align)Name:  IMG_2393.jpg
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