Repair of backhoe swing frame - Cast Steel - Page 3
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  1. #51
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    Re: Repair of backhoe swing frame - Cast Steel

    I think your time would be best spent building new. Especially if you're equiped to do the machining yourself. You would have a tight, repairable part for years to come when finished.
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  2. #52
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    Re: Repair of backhoe swing frame - Cast Steel

    That's quite the machine you purchased there. I can see 2 spots where the boom had been cracked or broke also?
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  3. #53
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    Re: Repair of backhoe swing frame - Cast Steel

    I have to concur with the advice to rebuild from scratch. Probably faster and stronger.

    Additionally, if I were you I’d look at the critical dimensions (bore locations and relationships to one another) and see if there may be a similar part from a different brand that you could use. Perhaps you would need to sleeve the pin bores, etc.

    Check out the older Ford backhoes - there were a ton of them - and also the Case machines.
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  4. #54
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    Re: Repair of backhoe swing frame - Cast Steel

    Quote Originally Posted by snoeproe View Post
    That's quite the machine you purchased there. I can see 2 spots where the boom had been cracked or broke also?
    Yes, it's seen some use and abuse to be sure. As the machines get older, the experience of the operator gets lower. Somebody at some point pushed it WAY too far, broke it, and then did a half assed job at the repair. I expect they immediately sold it at that point, and the next owner did even worse.

    It's gong to need a bunch of work. My time is worth something, but I enjoy this sort of thing as well. I like bringing something dead back to life. I have a soft spot for them. I also can get much more machine than I could otherwise afford with this route... so it works for me.

  5. #55
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    Re: Repair of backhoe swing frame - Cast Steel

    Quote Originally Posted by scsmith42 View Post
    I have to concur with the advice to rebuild from scratch. Probably faster and stronger.

    Additionally, if I were you I’d look at the critical dimensions (bore locations and relationships to one another) and see if there may be a similar part from a different brand that you could use. Perhaps you would need to sleeve the pin bores, etc.

    Check out the older Ford backhoes - there were a ton of them - and also the Case machines.
    My preference would be to replace with OEM. A build from scratch would take a LOT of time. If I can weld this up ENOUGH to buy me some time, then I could try to take it on in the winter during my down season. I can spare an hour, maybe two, per day on this. So I'm trying to break it into pieces of work I can manage. For the weld up, I know that's two solid days, probably. I can plan for that and also arrange for help while doing it. Moving 300# of hot steel ain't easy normally, but I've also got some physical limitations that would make it near impossible... So, I'll just do the best I can, and continue to search for am OEM replacement while also starting in on a built from scratch weldment design.

  6. #56
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    Re: Repair of backhoe swing frame - Cast Steel

    You haven't said what state you are in, or the backhoe model. Ford, Case, John Deere, JCB, and Caterpillar are prolific companies, lots of salvage yards selling parts.
    An optimist is usually wrong, and when the unexpected happens is unprepared. A pessimist is usually right, when wrong, is delighted, and well prepared.

  7. #57
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    Re: Repair of backhoe swing frame - Cast Steel

    He finally mentioned it was a 1988 Massey Ferguson MH60 TLB. in post #18 That's when we looked in MT and came up with the other machine... which from a $$$ standpoint would be a far better option IMHO you could sell off parts from one of em' and more than likely come out ahead of any other way

  8. #58
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    Re: Repair of backhoe swing frame - Cast Steel

    Quote Originally Posted by Willie B View Post
    You haven't said what state you are in, or the backhoe model. Ford, Case, John Deere, JCB, and Caterpillar are prolific companies, lots of salvage yards selling parts.
    Because I was looking for advise on how to go about a best practice for the weld I am looking to make. I wasn't seeking out help to find a part. I was looking for feedback on my strategy of how to go about doing the weld on the cast steel part. Tractor model and state were not salient to the question.

    If I was looking for help with a part location, I would have asked on a tractor forum, not WeldingWeb.com

  9. #59
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    Re: Repair of backhoe swing frame - Cast Steel

    Quote Originally Posted by midnightfant View Post
    Because I was looking for advise on how to go about a best practice for the weld I am looking to make. I wasn't seeking out help to find a part. I was looking for feedback on my strategy of how to go about doing the weld on the cast steel part. Tractor model and state were not salient to the question.

    If I was looking for help with a part location, I would have asked on a tractor forum, not WeldingWeb.com
    I don't believe cast steel requires a super high level of skill to weld. Rejoining two halves means you have to cut away enough material to give access all the way through. The older manuals will advise using 312 stainless steel to butter the faces. TIG would be my choice of buttering processes. The 312, 316, or hasteloy W would give a good filler to adhere to a porous surface. It won't be fast. It'll take several attempts to coat completely the cast surface. All this you want to do hot, 400-500 degrees F. After coating the broken surfaces, several processes will work. I'd choose low hydrogen; 7018 stick is a good choice, Dual Shield MIG would work.

    You are introducing a massive volume of molten filler. Each pass will shrink more than the one before. At least tilt the break wider at the side you're welding from.

    Once welded, not any of the bores will be in the correct line. This is where machining skills, and tools will help. Line boring will be needed, and if you hope to use stock bushings, you will have to bore weld.
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  10. #60
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    Re: Repair of backhoe swing frame - Cast Steel

    Quote Originally Posted by Willie B View Post
    I don't believe cast steel requires a super high level of skill to weld. Rejoining two halves means you have to cut away enough material to give access all the way through. The older manuals will advise using 312 stainless steel to butter the faces. TIG would be my choice of buttering processes. The 312, 316, or hasteloy W would give a good filler to adhere to a porous surface. It won't be fast. It'll take several attempts to coat completely the cast surface. All this you want to do hot, 400-500 degrees F. After coating the broken surfaces, several processes will work. I'd choose low hydrogen; 7018 stick is a good choice, Dual Shield MIG would work.

    You are introducing a massive volume of molten filler. Each pass will shrink more than the one before. At least tilt the break wider at the side you're welding from.

    Once welded, not any of the bores will be in the correct line. This is where machining skills, and tools will help. Line boring will be needed, and if you hope to use stock bushings, you will have to bore weld.
    Thank you! This is EXACTLY the type of feedback I was hoping to get and fills in my inexperience. I wouldn't have thought of using stainless to run on the surface. I can certainly do that if it helps increase my chance of success!

    I have a full machine shop with a vertical machining center, which I should be able to use for fixing the bore after welding is done. There are three pins and they all need to be in plane, and obviously in the correct location. I can turn the bushings. Setup will take FOREVER I know, but I'm confident I can hit my mark. I may turn eccentric bushings to give myself a little wiggle room. I'll have to talk to one of my engineer buddies about that idea... But first I needed feedback on the welding up first. Thank you!

  11. #61
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    Re: Repair of backhoe swing frame - Cast Steel

    Quote Originally Posted by midnightfant View Post
    Thank you! This is EXACTLY the type of feedback I was hoping to get and fills in my inexperience. I wouldn't have thought of using stainless to run on the surface. I can certainly do that if it helps increase my chance of success!

    I have a full machine shop with a vertical machining center, which I should be able to use for fixing the bore after welding is done. There are three pins and they all need to be in plane, and obviously in the correct location. I can turn the bushings. Setup will take FOREVER I know, but I'm confident I can hit my mark. I may turn eccentric bushings to give myself a little wiggle room. I'll have to talk to one of my engineer buddies about that idea... But first I needed feedback on the welding up first. Thank you!
    Andy (my extra son) built a boring bar, turned cones of aluminum to center it. He used an old broken three phase drill press to power it, and a $53 Chinese VFD he bought from E Bay to further slow it. It took forever! but the final product was perfect. I used several pounds of TIG rod to fill out the displaced metal. On that, (a Ford 4500) I did not find it necessary to use any stainless. TIG is a clean process, and has advantages when working on porous metals.
    Last edited by Willie B; 05-20-2019 at 07:39 AM.
    An optimist is usually wrong, and when the unexpected happens is unprepared. A pessimist is usually right, when wrong, is delighted, and well prepared.

  12. #62
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    Re: Repair of backhoe swing frame - Cast Steel

    Just FYI: Update on the MF60T that was found in CA for $8k. The listing is for a consignment and the owner is not willing to part it out, nor come down on price. So... no luck there. I did talk to a dealer (Abele) who sells used parts, and they don't have any, but I have a part number now. 2750500M6 and apparently they call it a Pivot Frame, not a swing frame. Same church, different pew. Anyway, searching on the part number didn't yield any results either. So, I'm back to the hail mary with repairing mine. I tripped while carrying some chain and fractured my left kneecap, so I'm moving pretty ******* slow today, so might be a day or two more before I get the hoe off the machine and can start working on the actual cleaning up, burn off, and try to get started on a repair. I'll need to also locate some stainless TIG wire. One of the local shops in South Austin should have some, so I'll swing by there on Wednesday when I'm in town and see. I'll probably do the buttering with just a rosebud and paint stick or IR to confirm temperature around 500° while laying down the butter pass(s). I'm also thinking of doing the initial tacks and getting everything lined up also cold. It won't be as accurate as I know thing will move once they get up to temp, and again once at ambient, but I'm going to be redoing the top two bores anyway so I just need them to be roughly in place anyway.

  13. #63
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    Re: Repair of backhoe swing frame - Cast Steel

    use some round stock to keep the holes in line.

  14. #64
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    Re: Repair of backhoe swing frame - Cast Steel

    Quote Originally Posted by thegary View Post
    use some round stock to keep the holes in line.
    I'd say try to predict the deformation, and gap it bigger on that side. Still won't be in perfect line, but maybe closer.
    An optimist is usually wrong, and when the unexpected happens is unprepared. A pessimist is usually right, when wrong, is delighted, and well prepared.

  15. #65
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    Re: Repair of backhoe swing frame - Cast Steel

    Maybe the second thing a machinist will tell you after his name, welded parts move when machined unless they have been stress relieved. The same holds true for cast. There have been a couple of occasions when it was "Where in he** am I going to find a true surface (to reference)? " Every machined surface had warped.
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  16. #66
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    Re: Repair of backhoe swing frame - Cast Steel

    Get yourself a air hammer and a blunt chisel for peening. With preheat and ample peening distortion will be minimized.
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  17. #67
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    Re: Repair of backhoe swing frame - Cast Steel

    me thinks that even with all the heat and welding this part will get,odds are the pivot holes will still match up closely enough seeing the wear the other attaching parts have anyway.
    at worst a little machining and new bushings should get you in the ballpark.this is not swiss precision here.
    still better off making new parts in the long run though!time and labor wise you'd be close anyway and most probably have a better product in the end.
    not what you want to read but it is what it is.

  18. #68
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    Re: Repair of backhoe swing frame - Cast Steel

    Quote Originally Posted by midnightfant View Post
    yeah, I had to sorta smirk at the BBQ and cast iron comments. I don't know much, but I know I ain't getting this thing in my oven or BBQ. I could probably get it into my smoker, but I don't think I COULD get my smoker up to 500 even if I wanted to... it's sorta designed NOT to get THAT hot. This is Texas after all, where Brisket is king, and low and slow is the only way to go.

    Anyway, yeah my plan was to tack some basic scafolding around just to hold the pieces in place and let me bonk and knock things around until everything is REASONABLY lined up with about as much as I'm going to manage given how much some of the parts have been stretched by continued use WELL past when it should have been repaired. Properly. Some peoples kids I tell ya'!

    I've got a gas rig and rosebud. Don't think it's 12, but I can get one easy enough. I'm also a blacksmith, so I'm OK on heating and isolating, tho I've never worked on a chunk THIS size. Apparently my idea of "drop it in the burn barrel with coals" doesn't seem like a wise course of action from this feedback tho. I was hoping to do that some so I could burn off all the contamination and whatnot which has found it's way into pores and cracks and wherever.

    I figure no matter what, I'm going to have to re-machine the pin bores. I will have no problems there. Well, I won't say NO problems, cause it's gonna be a lot of setup work, but I can do it. I'll CAD it up and then run it based on the measurements taken directly from the tractor. It might not be what the factory was, but it should be what it is now. If I have to make new pins because things opened up, I can do that easy enough on the lathe. I've got plenty of 4140 full hard round bar large enough to tackle that already on hand. I'm not too worried about machinable. I regularly am machining hardened material for some of the parts I make, so I'm tooled up for it, and at least in THAT realm, I'm in my sweet spot of experience and knowledge.

    I'm sorry we got off to a rough start there 12V71, and I appreciate your feedback here.

    If I remember correctly this hoe is from the early 60's . If it is a true cast steel it will readily weld up and have ductility using 7018 or 8018 rod. Cast iron includes semi-steel castings. By definition semi-steel IS cast iron. Now it has some traits of cast steel depending on how much steel was used in its making. I do not care how you fix it but I am telling you that it is NOT a true cast steel, if it was there would not be chunks broken out of it as is shown in the pics. The 312 or other SS rod being suggested is what is used to fix semi-steel and or cast iron. So you call it what ever you want but the repair needs to be aprouched like an Iron alloy . True cast steel was very rare in the early 60's. I worked in a foundry in the 1970's and 80's . We poured some cast steel and had a very hard time with quality control even then. I was a welder there and welded the stuff every day. Gas intrusion was a real problem and when I left there in the 80's they still did not have it mastered. I bow out now. good luck on your repair.

  19. #69
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    Re: Repair of backhoe swing frame - Cast Steel

    I would add my vote for looking for a similar part from another brand that is more available, and modify as needed. If that is not possible, preheating and stress relieving would be best done in a ground forge....just dig a hole big enough for the part and lots of fuel under and over it, with a pipe for air under the lower fuel bed. 7018 is good for structural members on booms etc.

  20. #70
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    Re: Repair of backhoe swing frame - Cast Steel

    I've got to agree with thegary. That part does not look like cast steel, it is not in a place where cast steel was commonly used, and it is a commodity type piece of equipment and cast steel is a high performance part. I think its either ductile or malleable cast iron.

    After you remove the hoe from the tractor (which you have to do anyway so you will have at least a tractor loader) do a test weld on the part. Heat an ear (or other piece where the weld area can be preheated without preheating the entire part) and weld an appropriately sized piece of mild steel to the frame, fillet weld one side only. Allow to cool completely. Now try to knock the piece of mild steel off with a big hammer. If it knocks of easily you need a different welding process, more preheat, or another change.

    Not to pick to hard on Willie, but Hastelloy W? That part will require more dollars of filler than the entire tractor is worth.

    For people eyeing old industrial equipment that can be purchased for a few pennies on the dollar compared to the original cost: let this this fellows experience be a lesson to you. You may buy it cheap, but it takes big dollars and real labor to make repairs.

    And pay attention to Bent's Law: If you gotta run junk, you gotta have a lot of it. So don't buy orphan junk, its very difficult to acquire a lot of it.
    Last edited by bent; 05-21-2019 at 01:08 PM.

  21. #71
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    Re: Repair of backhoe swing frame - Cast Steel

    If you have time, and want a good treatise on welding castings take a look at Section 8.2-1 in The Bible.

    Thicker material requires either a higher preheat (above 400), or continuous maintenance of interpass temp.

    Personally, I'd look for a filler that has good elongation properties. 7018 is somewhere in the 30ish% range. Lincoln recommends strictly lo-hy consumables. I'm thinking castings may have more susceptibility to hydrogen embrittlement.

    Slow cooling is a MUST. Don't want to hear that " ticking" sound when these welds cool......it's contracting too fast. Insulation is a good thing, but it might not be a bad idea to spend an hour keeping the temp up with a torch before putting a blanket on it for the night (gives ya an excuse to sit around and drink beer whilst blasting it occasionally with some heat). Preheat has to be a two sided thing, can't just heat the face...….gotta be all through the area to be welded (not necessarily the entire casting, although that would be ideal). If you do a local preheat, be prepared to work at keeping interpass temps constant. (buy a case of beer so's you can keep yer helper happy)

  22. #72
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    Re: Repair of backhoe swing frame - Cast Steel

    Quote Originally Posted by bent View Post
    I've got to agree with thegary. That part does not look like cast steel, it is not in a place where cast steel was commonly used, and it is a commodity type piece of equipment and cast steel is a high performance part. I think its either ductile or malleable cast iron.

    After you remove the hoe from the tractor (which you have to do anyway so you will have at least a tractor loader) do a test weld on the part. Heat an ear (or other piece where the weld area can be preheated without preheating the entire part) and weld an appropriately sized piece of mild steel to the frame, fillet weld one side only. Allow to cool completely. Now try to knock the piece of mild steel off with a big hammer. If it knocks of easily you need a different welding process, more preheat, or another change.

    Not to pick to hard on Willie, but Hastelloy W? That part will require more dollars of filler than the entire tractor is worth.

    For people eyeing old industrial equipment that can be purchased for a few pennies on the dollar compared to the original cost: let this this fellows experience be a lesson to you. You may buy it cheap, but it takes big dollars and real labor to make repairs.

    And pay attention to Bent's Law: If you gotta run junk, you gotta have a lot of it. So don't buy orphan junk, its very difficult to acquire a lot of it.
    All's ya gotta do is drill a small hole in the casting to tell whether it's iron or steel. Cast iron produces powdery "chips", while steel produces actual chips. Powdery looking stuff vs. stringy chips...……….eazy peazy test. Forget that spark crap, this is simpler, and reliable.

  23. #73
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    Re: Repair of backhoe swing frame - Cast Steel


  24. #74
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    Re: Repair of backhoe swing frame - Cast Steel

    Quote Originally Posted by farmersammm View Post
    All's ya gotta do is drill a small hole in the casting to tell whether it's iron or steel. Cast iron produces powdery "chips", while steel produces actual chips. Powdery looking stuff vs. stringy chips...……….eazy peazy test. Forget that spark crap, this is simpler, and reliable.
    That is not always the case when dealing with semi-steel castings. Some have a lot of traits of steel including having a curling chip. The weld test he proposed is the only fool proof test. A guy who really knows his spark testing could probably tell but I do not know that there is anyone that proficient at spark testing anymore. They can also have ductility to the point that it can actually bend out of shape some too. The problem is that that ductility in many cases is localized and is not the same through the whole part.

    The proposed test that bent suggests is a variation of the testing I described in my earlier post in this thread. I have already wasted too much time on this so have a good life .

  25. #75
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    Re: Repair of backhoe swing frame - Cast Steel

    RE: Material checking.
    Weld a little pimple on it somewhere clean with whatever method you're planning on. If a file skates off the pimple of metal because it's glass hard, you have cast mystery metal that may or may not be repairable by even a magician.

    You can weld clean machined, cast iron bores with Si Bronze mig wire when line boring back to size. Be sitting down when reading the price quote for the wire though. You need at least .100" new metal on each side of the finished bore to keep the weld from shelling out. Also, machining through the hard welds (prediction) where the ears that split on a bore were stuck back on is going to be a nightmare. Expect heavy carbide causalities.

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