Upgrade to Velocity2 consumables on Spray Master 250?
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  1. #1

    Upgrade to Velocity2 consumables on Spray Master 250?

    Hello forum,
    This is my first post here; just joined. I bought an ESAB Rebel EMP 235ic as I plan to weld a bunch of 1/4-inch hot roll plate assemblies, and was thinking I'd want to be able to do spray eventually. Also I read so many people advising to get a machine one size bigger than you think you need, so I didn't want to get something smaller and then want to upgrade soon after. I got the multiprocess welder because I'd like to learn TIG some day as well, and ESAB's current rebate program offered a free TIG gun, which I signed up for (I'll still need to buy a pedal and an argon cylinder).

    But first I have to learn to walk before I run, as I'm just learning arc welding (used to do a lot of auto body gas welding 40 years ago).
    I bought a cylinder of C15 (argon 85%) thinking that would work for short-circuit while also being acceptably high argon for spray welding.
    I got a bunch of steel drops and laid down some beads on 1/8-inch sheet, using the sMig settings.
    I think I might have had the gas flow too high, at 30 to 35 CFH. I'm using the .035" Aristorod solid wire that came with the machine.
    A local pro welder agreed to spend some time teaching me to weld, but that hasn't been set up yet.
    I also welded the miter joints for a small 3-sided frame (U-shaped) of 1.5 x 1/8 angle that I needed to build. After welding the outsides of the joints, it didn't look like the welds penetrated to the opposite side, so I went ahead and welded the insides of the joints as well.
    My welds look like crap compared to what I see on Youtube! I spent many minutes with the angle grinder smoothing the exterior faces of the joints!
    I know I need to spend lots of time experimenting with gas flow rate and the sMIG settings, and probably try manual MIG settings. I also think the fact I didn't wire brush the mill scale off the material near the joints was probably a big part of the spattering weld I produced. I will clean the material next time.

    So my questions are basically two unrelated ones:

    1) Is the 85-15 gas mix too low in CO2 percentage for decent short circuit MIG? I know 75/25 is the normal mix.

    2) The Spray Master 250 gun that came with the welder feels nice, but I see on ESAB's website they now have these Velocity2 consumables available, and they seem better in some respects. It looks like they require a different conductor tube, but it's hard to find out for sure if my older-style gun can even be converted at all. I'd rather not invest in piles of the older style consumables if I could just as easily be using the newer Velocity2 style. I've searched quite a bit online but am not finding a source that has the conductor tube, only the contact tips and nozzles seem readily available for the Velocity2 system. I haven't asked my LWS about Tweco consumables yet, but they seem to focus on Miller and Lincoln primarily. Does anyone here know if upgrading to Velocity2 is possible? If so is there any reason I wouldn't want to do so (other than the up-front cost to convert)?

    Pete

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Apr 2019
    Location
    PNW
    Posts
    108

    Re: Upgrade to Velocity2 consumables on Spray Master 250?

    2) The Spray Master 250 gun that came with the welder feels nice, but I see on ESAB's website they now have these Velocity2 consumables available, and they seem better in some respects. It looks like they require a different conductor tube, but it's hard to find out for sure if my older-style gun can even be converted at all. I'd rather not invest in piles of the older style consumables if I could just as easily be using the newer Velocity2 style. I've searched quite a bit online but am not finding a source that has the conductor tube, only the contact tips and nozzles seem readily available for the Velocity2 system. I haven't asked my LWS about Tweco consumables yet, but they seem to focus on Miller and Lincoln primarily. Does anyone here know if upgrading to Velocity2 is possible? If so is there any reason I wouldn't want to do so (other than the up-front cost to convert)?
    I'm running a Spray Master 250 on my 285ic, using the Velocity nozzle, and Velocity2 contact tips with the original conductor tube.

    I don't know if my gun is newer than yours, or if that makes a difference. I purchased the machine a few months ago, but the instruction book for the Spray Master 250 was printed in 2015.

    If you can post a pic of your gun we can confirm if they are similar.
    Just say, Know.

  3. #3

    Re: Upgrade to Velocity2 consumables on Spray Master 250?

    My welder is in my rented shop space 12 miles away. The best I can do for now is the model number engraved into the gun, which I copied down:

    MS215B3035-042817-041759-*AB

    I assume the last groups of numbers are some sort of serial number. According to the manual, the MS means Spray Master, the 215 means 250 amps and 15 feet long, and the 3035 is the installed conduit liner. I've ordered a 42-4045-15 replacement liner to allow me to run .045 wire at some point.
    I bought my system in April.

    The manual that came with it is Instruction Guide Number 89200009, published July 20, 2009. The copyright (2009) is by Thermadyne Industries in Denton, TX. Isn't that just a little pathetic?

    The new Velocity2 Spray Master gun, on the ESAB website, has a manual published online with the number 89200016.

    It sure does look like ESAB is "using up" their old stock of Tweco guns by bundling them with their "hot new" welders. I'm disappointed my expensive new state-of-the-art multiprocess welder didn't come with their latest Spray Master gun; after all they make such a big deal about how fantastic the new Velocity2 system is!

    I did send a message in to ESAB using their online Contact Form, asking about the Velocity2 conversion. We'll see what they say!

    I'll photograph my MIG gun this coming weekend when I'll be back at the shop learning to weld some more!

    Thanks for your response.
    Pete

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Apr 2019
    Location
    PNW
    Posts
    108

    Re: Upgrade to Velocity2 consumables on Spray Master 250?

    The part number on my gun starts with SMV (Spray Master w/ Velocity).

    And all three conductor tubes available for my gun start with SMV as well.
    Just say, Know.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jul 2018
    Location
    Cumbria, UK
    Posts
    499

    Re: Upgrade to Velocity2 consumables on Spray Master 250?

    1. The 85-15 gas mix is fine for decent short circuit MIG. It's actually fine for nearly all medium fab work, up to around 1/2" plate if you had the amps for penetration (which you don't really with that machine, not after around 10mm)
    If you're having poor results it's either the machine, the setup, or your technique. The S-mig mode is supposed to be fantastic, but some people have had early failure of control boards and leads to an erratic arc.
    Not sure if it will be calibrated quite for that gas either - common ones being C25 or C5... this is NOT a problem because you simply adjust the arc or voltage trim to compensate.

    If you want to rule out the Smig settings then try it on manual straight voltage with 360-380 inch per minute wire speed and around 22 volts for your 1/4" job. If it can't produce an acceptable weld with those settings then there's something else wrong.

    re the consumables.... they are cheap and if you're welding properly, you won't go through all that many... just get them bought
    Last edited by Munkul; 05-28-2019 at 05:22 AM.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Posts
    512

    Re: Upgrade to Velocity2 consumables on Spray Master 250?

    https://weldingweb.com/showthread.ph...61#post8466961

    I had this pic of Velocity. No real need to upgrade your consumables IMO, you can weld just fine with what you have.
    ESAB Rebels 215/235, Hypertherm 85, 45xp, Miller 350p, Synchrowave 350 LX, Thermal Arc 185, Everlast 255EXT, TD 60i

  7. #7

    Re: Upgrade to Velocity2 consumables on Spray Master 250?

    Thank you for your responses, and Jaws, for the link to that discussion. I read in there about Bernard's Centerfire system as well, and it looks pretty inexpensive to get their adapter for my gun.
    Is the Centerfire system generally well received? It seems pretty easy to find Bernard consumables on various vendors' websites. As with the Velocity system, I like the fact you don't have to thread the contact tip in place.

    BTW, I did hear back from ESAB tech support and they confirmed that their conductor tube #1240-1377 will convert my MIG gun to the Velocity2 system. I wrote back asking how come I apparently received an obsolete 10-year-old MIG gun with my expensive new welder, when someone else bought an EMP 285 a few months earlier and got the Velocity-type gun? And also the setup demonstrated about 2 years ago by Bob Moffatt on Weld.com's youtube series for my welder clearly shows that he has Velocity consumables where the nozzle screws on to secure the threadless contact tip. Will be curious to see their response to that question!
    When I search for "1240-1377" I find zip, other than one document reference at esabna.com. They don't make it easy to buy that part!
    Last edited by ICPete; 05-28-2019 at 11:54 PM.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jul 2018
    Location
    Cumbria, UK
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    499

    Re: Upgrade to Velocity2 consumables on Spray Master 250?

    it's a standard tweco spraymaster gun though I don't understand why you care so much. Just buy some tips for it, job jobbed.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Hutchinson Kansas
    Posts
    532

    Re: Upgrade to Velocity2 consumables on Spray Master 250?

    If you are a new welder its probably much cheaper to use the old style tweeco consumables. You can melt a bunch of tips and nozzles before approaching the cost of one velocity tip and nozzle. For production welding I can see the advantage of the velocity series. I got an assortment a while back to demo. I like it but it will take me a few years to use up the old style tweco stuff I already have.
    Lincolin Power Wave 450, Lincoln Powermig 255, Lincoln Pro Mig 140, Lincoln Squarewave Tig 275, Miller Big 40 G(with Hobart Hefty suitcase), Thermal Arc 95S and Esab PCM875 in an already full machine shop.

  10. #10
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    Apr 2019
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    PNW
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    108

    Re: Upgrade to Velocity2 consumables on Spray Master 250?

    If you are a new welder its probably much cheaper to use the old style tweeco consumables.You can melt a bunch of tips and nozzles before approaching the cost of one velocity tip and nozzle.
    At $14.40 for a ten pack of .045 contact tips, and $35.15 for a two pack of 5/8" velocity nozzles, I have a hard time believing that.
    Just say, Know.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Hutchinson Kansas
    Posts
    532

    Re: Upgrade to Velocity2 consumables on Spray Master 250?

    I guess you are talking about the light duty series.

    When I got prices it was for the heavy duty and it was $25-$30 for one nozzle.
    Lincolin Power Wave 450, Lincoln Powermig 255, Lincoln Pro Mig 140, Lincoln Squarewave Tig 275, Miller Big 40 G(with Hobart Hefty suitcase), Thermal Arc 95S and Esab PCM875 in an already full machine shop.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Apr 2019
    Location
    PNW
    Posts
    108

    Re: Upgrade to Velocity2 consumables on Spray Master 250?

    Those are the medium duty consumables.

    No reason to go heavy duty when they are going in a Spray Master 250, which is a medium duty gun. But in this case medium duty is 250 amps at 80%(owners manual), website says 60% (get your slit straight ESAB!) duty cycle, should be enough for most mortal men.
    Just say, Know.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Posts
    512

    Re: Upgrade to Velocity2 consumables on Spray Master 250?

    Short arc the Fusion stuff works fine, the old style Tweco works just fine for short arc also and generally prefer it for 1/8 and below and super cheap. if I do some spray or dual shield on the 235 then the Velocity has held up very well with the heat.
    ESAB Rebels 215/235, Hypertherm 85, 45xp, Miller 350p, Synchrowave 350 LX, Thermal Arc 185, Everlast 255EXT, TD 60i

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Mar 2019
    Location
    North & South America
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    18

    Re: Upgrade to Velocity2 consumables on Spray Master 250?

    I have a Rebel 235EMP which came with the 250 SprayMaster gun. Works fine. I cannot see the sense in buying a Velocity gun...The consumables cost more...Now having said that, the Velocity tips can be used in the SprayMaster.

    Now the real question is...Are you that good at MIG welding? Are you doing production work? OR Do you just want the latest stuff?

    To me it make no sense...
    Self-sufficient...to the end...
    Engineer and build it all

    Miller CST280
    ESAB EMP 235
    Abene
    Rockwell
    Atlas
    Fluke
    and the list goes on....

  15. #15

    Re: Upgrade to Velocity2 consumables on Spray Master 250?

    Now the real question is...Are you that good at MIG welding? Are you doing production work? OR Do you just want the latest stuff?
    Hah! As I stated in the OP, I'm just learning! You nailed it; I just want the latest stuff! The replacement conductor tube that's required to "upgrade" my gun to use the Velocity2 consumables is around $40.
    After that the consumables don't cost much different than the standard ones, especially if they last longer as claimed.
    I haven't bought any spare consumables yet, so the $40 conductor tube is really the only investment required.
    But getting all these opinions is why I posted the question on WW in the first place; this is great feedback and definitely making me consider perhaps it's not even worth the $40 to switch over to velocity.
    Last edited by ICPete; 05-31-2019 at 12:52 AM.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Jul 2018
    Location
    Cumbria, UK
    Posts
    499

    Re: Upgrade to Velocity2 consumables on Spray Master 250?

    It's not worth it. It's really not just buy a pack of 5-10 tips and see how you get on... even if you're learning as you go and burn back a few, you should aim to the point of making a tip last a full 15kg reel of wire.

    Latest and greatest doesn't make much difference after a few jobs since it all gets heated and covered in spatter...

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