Cosmic Worms From the Outershiled Universe
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  1. #1
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    Cosmic Worms From the Outershiled Universe

    I know, I know there are a plethora of threads on this topic. I've read most of them, and gotten some pointers. Yet the problems persists.

    The specifics:

    ESAB Rebel 285ic

    Fresh knurled drive rolls

    fresh .045 contact tip

    C25 gas from 25-45 CFH

    Lincoln 71 Elite .045 Just born, I sliced away the placenta and cut the umbilical cord myself

    3/4"-1" stick out

    Flat position

    Running recommended voltage and wire feed speeds from Lincolns page. None seem to work all that well, but lower settings are slightly more consistent.

    https://m.lincolnelectric.com/assets...lite/c3103.pdf

    I've been playing around with this for the past 2 days adjusting all of my parameters (one at a time of course). Each adjustment seems to help a bit, but none are consistently good.

    First I was running in the flux-cored mode, then I switched to the MIG mode which seemed to help a bit.

    I can get about 3"-4" of buttery smooth weld, before the tracks and holes show up. All of the welds sounded real nice, minimal splatter, the occasional pop. Some of the best sounding welds were the most pocked up.

    I've watched several of jody's videos on the subject, and my procedure matches closely to his.

    I've squirted out a couple of pounds of wire at this point, and I am perplexed.

    So, please, can one of you more knowledgeable folks drop that one nugget on me that will change my life?

    I'm gonna be burning rod while I wait, to quell the anger.

    OOOOHHHHMMMMMMM. . .
    Just say, Know.

  2. #2
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    Re: Cosmic Worms From the Outershiled Universe

    This might help, not sure. I find that I am always holding a tighter stickout with this stuff than I intended. Bad habits from short circuit MIG I guess. What were you running for WFS?

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  3. #3
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    Re: Cosmic Worms From the Outershiled Universe

    You may want to turn up your gas a bit the specs call for 40-50 CFH
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  4. #4
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    Re: Cosmic Worms From the Outershiled Universe

    I watched that vid yesterday, very informative.

    As result I have been paying real close attention to my stick out.

    As far as the CFH of gas, It worked almost as well at 25 as it did at 45. So, I thought there is no way another 5 was going to make it all good.

    I thought this stuff was supposed to be real forgiving on parameters?

    And supposed to be a good process for the fab shop (less cleaning) or in the outdoors (able to deal with ambient breezes)? If so, I figured, why would using more flow be any different?

    On a lighter note I think I'm getting a lot better at my whip and pause 6010. OOOHHHMMMM. . . .
    Just say, Know.

  5. #5
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    Re: Cosmic Worms From the Outershiled Universe

    I have never heard that is was good for outdoors without a windbreak. I have never used 71 Elite, but I use 71M fairly often. It is forgiving on parameters in my experience, and I don't often have worm tracks unless I get a little too aggressive on voltage. its also forgiving on position, in that you can usually find middle of the road settings that work flat, vertical up and overhead.

    Do you think your MIG gun might be leaking gas? Maybe at 45 its still not delivering enough gas.
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  6. #6
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    Re: Cosmic Worms From the Outershiled Universe

    I would try turning the gas up a fair amount, and set voltage to 24 and WFS to 300 and try that. Watch the stick out, make sure you have a solid ground. use a 5 degree drag angle.
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  7. #7
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    Re: Cosmic Worms From the Outershiled Universe

    I have never heard that is was good for outdoors without a windbreak.
    I am probably mistaken on that one.

    Do you think your MIG gun might be leaking gas?
    Two days ago I was running hardwire, and suprising myself at how good it looked. So I don't think I have any leaks in the gun.

    I did however, check all my hose connections with soapy water, and they all checked out.

    Maybe at 45 its still not delivering enough gas.
    It could be that extra 5CFH, but if it is then why would it only run slightly worse at 25CFH when I first started out?

    This is starting to look like a pretty expensive process, what with the high gas demands and cost of wire.

    What do you find it's strengths to be, that over come cost?

    The Lady says it's garden time now, so I will have to give that 5CFH a try tomorrow.

    Thank you for your input.
    Just say, Know.

  8. #8
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    Re: Cosmic Worms From the Outershiled Universe

    Dual shield has four strengths: its fast and very productive, produces a weld as strong and as ductile as a 7018 rod, runs very well/easily out of position, and it burns in HOT. Very little chance of cold lap with this stuff.
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  9. #9
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    Re: Cosmic Worms From the Outershiled Universe

    You shouldn't need over 35 cfh with that unless your getting into high volts, over 30 or so volts. I'm guessing it's either stickout or too high a voltage. Your bizzare way of describing what's going on doesn't help either. Last time I checked the wire came in a fuzking box with a plastic wrapper and a piece of wire to hold it closed.
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  10. #10
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    Re: Cosmic Worms From the Outershiled Universe

    I've never run the 71 elite, have ran pallets (literally multiple thousands of pounds) of lincoln 71e-H and Ni81 dual shield though, I don't tend to get worm tracks that often and when i do they seem to start for no reason and stop for no reason, but some advice that might help.

    first it's not gas coverage, it's most likely moisture either on the steel, in the wire flux or somwhere else, try slowing down your travel speed to allow more time for gasses to escape, pre heating the steel helps as it slows the cooling of the slag and stops the gas from getting trapped under it.

    I always run alot less stick out then recommended by lincoln, 1//4-1/2 inch, I actually cut my shrounds so the end of the tip just pokes out.

    If you have inductance control on your machine, set it on the high end.

    I like to run 26-32 volts with .045, and anywhere from 500-900 IPM depending on the joint, my general out of position setting is 27 volts and 600 IPM which i find nice and easy to control on anything down to 3/8th inch thickness going vertical.

    hopefully timmy tig chimes in as well, he's pretty experienced with duel shield.

  11. #11
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    Re: Cosmic Worms From the Outershiled Universe

    Go for broke. 50 CFH, and make sure you are measuring the stickout from the actual tip to the work. If you have a flush tip that is easy, but if the tip is recessed then measure the recess. If you have a protruding tip, then the nozzle orifice is going to be waaaaay too far for even 45 CFH to work. Recessed 1/4" would be ideal.
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  12. #12
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    Re: Cosmic Worms From the Outershiled Universe

    Quote Originally Posted by M J D View Post
    Your bizzare way of describing what's going on doesn't help either. Last time I checked the wire came in a fuzking box with a plastic wrapper and a piece of wire to hold it closed.


    Lincoln 71 Elite .045 Just born, (I had just taken it out of the box. Get it? Box? Ho, I kill me!)

    I sliced away the placenta (I cut the shrink wrap off the roll.)

    and cut the umbilical cord myself (I cut the wire off where it was wrapped around the reel.)
    Not that bizarre, just a simple humorous analogy. I'm sorry if we lost you along the way.
    Just say, Know.

  13. #13
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    Re: Cosmic Worms From the Outershiled Universe

    Quote Originally Posted by ttoks View Post

    first it's not gas coverage, it's most likely moisture either on the steel, in the wire flux or somwhere else, try slowing down your travel speed to allow more time for gasses to escape, pre heating the steel helps as it slows the cooling of the slag and stops the gas from getting trapped under it.



    If you have inductance control on your machine, set it on the high end.
    I doubt it's moisture, the reel was factory shrink wrapped 10 minutes before I started squirting out worm tracks.

    After the first few beads the steel was plenty preheated. I padded beads on it for 20 minutes cooling it off in a bucket only until I could barely hold it with a gloved hand, after every few beads. It was hot enough for all the water to steam off the piece before I could get it back onto the table.

    Inductance, I had my inductance set at 25%, as per My machines door chart recommendations. But if you say higher is better I will give that a roll.
    Just say, Know.

  14. #14
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    Re: Cosmic Worms From the Outershiled Universe

    Quote Originally Posted by Oscar View Post
    Go for broke. 50 CFH, and make sure you are measuring the stickout from the actual tip to the work. If you have a flush tip that is easy, but if the tip is recessed then measure the recess. If you have a protruding tip, then the nozzle orifice is going to be waaaaay too far for even 45 CFH to work. Recessed 1/4" would be ideal.

    Stickout was measured from the contact tip, Which is recessed 1/8".

    Going for broke on the 50CFH tomorrow.
    Just say, Know.

  15. #15
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    Re: Cosmic Worms From the Outershiled Universe

    I had the same problem with some dualshield I was running too. My wire was older but in good shape. I was getting some worm tracks but no holes in my welds. Finally I stuck the whole spool in the oven at 230 degrees for about 30 minutes to boil off any water whatsoever would be in or on the wire. Took it out and went straight to the machine with the preheated wire and it worked great.

  16. #16
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    Re: Cosmic Worms From the Outershiled Universe

    The Weld.com video mentions proper storage. I've been keeping it all in the second floor of the garage forever. In summer it's 120 degrees up there during the day, so pretty dry. Maybe not dry enough.

    I hadn't thought more shielding gas is needed with long stickout. I'd imagine blasting gas also causes more turbulence.
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  17. #17
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    Re: Cosmic Worms From the Outershiled Universe

    Quote Originally Posted by ferrret3238 View Post
    I had the same problem with some dualshield I was running too. My wire was older but in good shape. I was getting some worm tracks but no holes in my welds. Finally I stuck the whole spool in the oven at 230 degrees for about 30 minutes to boil off any water whatsoever would be in or on the wire. Took it out and went straight to the machine with the preheated wire and it worked great.
    Esab says "reconditioning" works, but only a few times. Or if your spool is a plastic one, lol.
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  18. #18
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    Re: Cosmic Worms From the Outershiled Universe

    Alright, I went up to 50CFH and the tracks and holes went away.

    However, there was a noticeable eddy current around the edge of the nozzle. I'm pretty sure that is going to bit my in the butt eventually. I also don't like burning up my gas that quick, so I decided to try and go down in CFH.

    Down to 45CFH, and up to 100% inductance. Success. Puddle is really "wet" and tends to sag.

    Down to 40 CFH, and 100% inductance. Success.

    Down to 35 CFH, and 100% inductance. Success

    35CFH, and 50% inductance. Success. Much less sag, but still fairly "wet."

    30CFH, and 50% inductance. Success.

    25CFH, and 50% inductance. Success. Now we're saving gas!

    20 CFH, and 50% inductance. Worms tracks are back with a vengeance.

    20CFH, and 100% inductance. Success. However, the slag was much harder to get off.

    All beads were run at 25V and 350 WFS.

    I'm going to stop here, for the night.

    I'm thinking the inductance is making for a wetter puddle allowing gas bubbles to escape better?

    I'd love to hear your thoughts.

    Thank you for all the suggestions, and thoughts.
    Just say, Know.

  19. #19
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    Re: Cosmic Worms From the Outershiled Universe

    Quote Originally Posted by Flat_Bastard View Post
    Alright, I went up to 50CFH and the tracks and holes went away.

    However, there was a noticeable eddy current around the edge of the nozzle. I'm pretty sure that is going to bit my in the butt eventually. I also don't like burning up my gas that quick, so I decided to try and go down in CFH.

    Down to 45CFH, and up to 100% inductance. Success. Puddle is really "wet" and tends to sag.

    Down to 40 CFH, and 100% inductance. Success.

    Down to 35 CFH, and 100% inductance. Success

    35CFH, and 50% inductance. Success. Much less sag, but still fairly "wet."

    30CFH, and 50% inductance. Success.

    25CFH, and 50% inductance. Success. Now we're saving gas!

    20 CFH, and 50% inductance. Worms tracks are back with a vengeance.

    20CFH, and 100% inductance. Success. However, the slag was much harder to get off.

    All beads were run at 25V and 350 WFS.

    I'm going to stop here, for the night.

    I'm thinking the inductance is making for a wetter puddle allowing gas bubbles to escape better?

    I'd love to hear your thoughts.

    Thank you for all the suggestions, and thoughts.
    Glad to see that you've found a solution, I have noticed that duel shield runs better with high inductance over the years, although due to almost everything I weld being pre heated I never have problems with worm tracks anyway

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  20. #20
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    Re: Cosmic Worms From the Outershiled Universe

    They told us to turn the wire speed up a wee bit, 10- 15 inches a minute when we had this problem using it in shipyards and on ductwork for power plants. It helped. Ever once in a while I get this problem running self shielded wire and tried the same thing it helped for that too. I don't know anything about inductance I never had a machine that had an adjustment for that, shucks I don't even know what it is

  21. #21
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    Re: Cosmic Worms From the Outershiled Universe

    Quote Originally Posted by Popeye an old miner View Post
    They told us to turn the wire speed up a wee bit, 10- 15 inches a minute when we had this problem using it in shipyards and on ductwork for power plants. It helped. Ever once in a while I get this problem running self shielded wire and tried the same thing it helped for that too. I don't know anything about inductance I never had a machine that had an adjustment for that, shucks I don't even know what it is
    Ever notice that alot of older machines have 2 or 3 different negative terminals? That's different inductance settings on older machines.

    Inductance is the current rise rate when the wire short circuits, more give a wetter puddle and less spatter and feels hotter for the same settings, less lets you pinpoint the weld bead more easily (great for outside corner joints on thin stuff).

    Why it makes a difference with worm tracks on dual shield I have no idea, but I noticed it helps alot for some reason

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  22. #22
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    Re: Cosmic Worms From the Outershiled Universe

    Quote Originally Posted by ttoks View Post
    Ever notice that alot of older machines have 2 or 3 different negative terminals? That's different inductance settings on older machines.

    Inductance is the current rise rate when the wire short circuits, more give a wetter puddle and less spatter and feels hotter for the same settings, less lets you pinpoint the weld bead more easily (great for outside corner joints on thin stuff).

    Why it makes a difference with worm tracks on dual shield I have no idea, but I noticed it helps alot for some reason

    Sent from my R7sf using Tapatalk
    I cant say for sure that Ive used a machine with 2 negative posts, maybe when I was a kid just getting started, Ive mostly used engine drive welders, and I don't recall ever seeing any with 2 negatives, I used a Miller Trailblazer 350Pro a long time ago that had 2 positives I think. If im not mistaken one was for stick and the other was for CV. Been a long time since I even saw that machine. Oh well it don't matter what I got works fine for me

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