Lincoln ProMig 180 Outlet Run
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  1. #1
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    Lincoln ProMig 180 Outlet Run

    Hey Folks,

    I upgraded from a little Lincoln ProMig 135 to a ProMig 180. The 135 was 110v, but this 180 is 220v. I'm not a 'long duty cycle' wilder, just small projects mainly using 14g square tubing.

    I daisy-chained the outlet for the 180 at the end of a two outlet run. The two outlets are for a 15" wood planer and a 8" joiner. This run from the breaker is using #10 AWG and on a dedicated 30amp breaker at the panel. Only one of the three mentioned units will ever be operated at a time.

    What kind of a line drop at the welder, if any, could I expect during a 3" to 4" bead run. (14g mild steel, 0.025" Lincoln MIG wire, NexAir Stargon.). And would it contribute to the following....?

    What I'm getting is after a wonderful start arc and about 3" of good bacon crackle it seems to loose it's legs and struggle to finish the 4". Shoot, I got nicer beads from my old 135.

    Should I split the run to the welder from the two other outlets?

    (Lincoln settings are: panel- feed 4.5/C v, Gas 20 cfm using a ball regulator.)

    Any suggestions would be appreciated and thanks.

  2. #2
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    Re: Lincoln ProMig 180 Outlet Run

    10's on a 30 should run the 180 and then some. It isn't the power and the other two paralleled to the welder outlet don't matter if they aren't on and all splices made properly.

  3. #3
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    Re: Lincoln ProMig 180 Outlet Run

    Quote Originally Posted by danielplace View Post
    10's on a 30 should run the 180 and then some. It isn't the power and the other two paralleled to the welder outlet don't matter if they aren't on and all splices made properly.
    I agree with danielplace. I would have someone check that wiring while you're welding and if it isn't getting hot somewhere, it definitely isn't the wiring.

    Here's another diagnostic: Weld your 3", then immediately move to a different place on the workpiece and weld again over there. It just might weld fine once you get away from the hot area. Lots of times pieces will weld very differently if they're really hot. If it's new tube, look at the HAZ (the blue area around the weld bead). Is it getting wider as you go along? If so, it is definitely getting hotter.

    Another thing to try is to change the liner on your MIG gun. Liner problems manifest in strange ways sometimes.

    After that, check every single thing about the gun. Is it fully seated into the machine? Are all the threaded bits up by the tip screwed on solidly?

    What you are describing is a problem that shows up when something is getting hot. When things get hot, things that were in good electrical contact can swell up and not be connected right anymore.

    metalmagpie

  4. #4
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    Re: Lincoln ProMig 180 Outlet Run

    FWIW...…….

    My HH190 will start to run cooler after continuous use. When I weld caps on tubing, I'll generally tack them all up, then weld them non stop till done. Might weld up to 8 feet of weld virtually continually. As the time progresses, I have to shorten stick out to keep running as hot as when I started the welds. Always just figured there was resistance building in some part of the welder as it heats up.

    On the flip side...the LN25 will weld all day long with no adverse effects. I'd imagine it's just a heavier duty welder with beefier components that don't get affected by overheating.

  5. #5
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    Re: Lincoln ProMig 180 Outlet Run

    Quote Originally Posted by BajaMike View Post
    Hey Folks,


    I daisy-chained the outlet for the 180 at the end of a two outlet run. The two outlets are for a 15" wood planer and a 8" joiner. This run from the breaker is using #10 AWG and on a dedicated 30amp breaker at the panel. Only one of the three mentioned units will ever be operated at a time.
    How long is the run from the breaker to the welder receptacle?

    Are you using any extension cords from the receptacle to the welder?

    When you say daisy-chained, do you mean that you stabbed the wire into the two other receptacles to splice them and carry through?

    Or did you splice the wires, taking pigtails out to the woodworking receptacles?
    Just say, Know.

  6. #6
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    Re: Lincoln ProMig 180 Outlet Run

    You could maybe try a receptacle wired straight to a breaker just coming right out of the panel as a test to be certain power isn't your issue before you change what you have or have to worry about it any longer.
    Last edited by danielplace; 06-11-2019 at 08:46 AM.

  7. #7
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    Re: Lincoln ProMig 180 Outlet Run

    Hey Folks,

    All of the input is great. I give large 'thanks'.

    I did wire the outlet runs from the back side off the outlet's terminals, so I think that the connections are (maybe) OK. BUT I'm gonna make a separate run to the welder receptacle which will not be using the two outlets in the chain. Also I'll replace my 30 amp breaker with a 40 amp as the Lincoln recommends. This way I'll know for sure that all my circuit is good. I should have done this at first.

    The total 10AWG run from the breaker panel is no more than 40 feet. So I think that is OK. My welder plugs directly into a plug which is proper for the welder, no extension cords.

    As 'metalmegpie' suggested I may have been allowing the short pieces of 1"x2" 14 ga tubing that I was playing with to get too hot and cause the issue. It makes sense now that I think back on the welder's preformance.

    Anyway, I'm going to rewire my run, triple check my set up for the 180, change out the 30 amp breaker with a 40 amp'er, and chop up some longer 1x2 tubing and burn some wire,,.,,,

    We'll see... Again, thank you all for the suggestions and sorry for the delay responding. I sometimes get myself tightly wrapped around the old axle... but with help and advise from you 'Pros' I sometimes find my way.

    Bye.

  8. #8
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    Re: Lincoln ProMig 180 Outlet Run

    Did you take one hot leg off of two different outlets to get 240 volts? Very dangerous if you did.
    Eventual master of the obvious, practitioner of "stream of consciousness fabrication". P.S. I edit almost every post because because I'm posting from my phone and my fingers sometimes move faster than my brain.

  9. #9
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    Re: Lincoln ProMig 180 Outlet Run

    Quote Originally Posted by Sedanman View Post
    Did you take one hot leg off of two different outlets to get 240 volts? Very dangerous if you did.
    He says he has a dedicated 30 amp #10 wire circuit so doesn't sound like it. Doesn't sound like stealing different hots from 120 stuff to me.

    30 amp breaker with #10 wire feeding 3- 240 volt outlets daisy chained off the device screws one to he next.
    Last edited by danielplace; 06-17-2019 at 10:44 PM.

  10. #10
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    Re: Lincoln ProMig 180 Outlet Run

    [Also I'll replace my 30 amp breaker with a 40 amp as the Lincoln recommends.]

    If you change to a 40 amp breaker, you need to run 8 gauge wire.
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  11. #11
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    Re: Lincoln ProMig 180 Outlet Run

    Quote Originally Posted by mechanic416 View Post
    [Also I'll replace my 30 amp breaker with a 40 amp as the Lincoln recommends.]

    If you change to a 40 amp breaker, you need to run 8 gauge wire.
    According to the "good book."

    It depends on the the type/temperature rating of the insulation, and how many conductors you have bundled together.

    If you are only running one 220V circuit in a nonmetallic sheathed cable (romex type cable), or individual conductors of only one 220V circuit in a conduit then:

    If your #10AWG insulation is rated to 60*C then it is good to 30 amps.
    If your #10AWG insulation is rated to 75*C then it is good to 35 amps.
    If you #10AWG insulation is rated to 90*C then it is good to 40 amps.

    #8AWG only needs to be rated at 60*C under those same conditions, to be good to 40 amps.
    Just say, Know.

  12. #12
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    Re: Lincoln ProMig 180 Outlet Run

    Quote Originally Posted by danielplace View Post
    He says he has a dedicated 30 amp #10 wire circuit so doesn't sound like it. Doesn't sound like stealing different hots from 120 stuff to me.

    30 amp breaker with #10 wire feeding 3- 240 volt outlets daisy chained off the device screws one to he next.
    I re read the original post. I see I was confused.
    Eventual master of the obvious, practitioner of "stream of consciousness fabrication". P.S. I edit almost every post because because I'm posting from my phone and my fingers sometimes move faster than my brain.

  13. #13
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    Re: Lincoln ProMig 180 Outlet Run

    Quote Originally Posted by Flat_Bastard View Post
    According to the "good book."

    It depends on the the type/temperature rating of the insulation, and how many conductors you have bundled together.

    If you are only running one 220V circuit in a nonmetallic sheathed cable (romex type cable), or individual conductors of only one 220V circuit in a conduit then:

    If your #10AWG insulation is rated to 60*C then it is good to 30 amps.
    If your #10AWG insulation is rated to 75*C then it is good to 35 amps.
    If you #10AWG insulation is rated to 90*C then it is good to 40 amps.

    #8AWG only needs to be rated at 60*C under those same conditions, to be good to 40 amps.
    Hey Flat Bastard,

    I understand what you are saying, but my confusion is from the Lincoln Mig Pro180 manual that states: Minimum wire size is 14 AWG and use a 40 amp Super Lag breaker. This makes me crazy....!

    Anyway, I've run a dedicated circuit from my Eaton 200 amp breaker box to the welder outlet. The run is approximately 25 feet and I used 10 AWG from 'Homeless Depo'. I did not look at the temp rating.... dumb, dumb of me. So, that's were I'm at. I think that I'll call Lincoln and see what the 'Suits' there allow the CR folks to say.

    I should reiterate that I don't and will never come close to the little 180's duty cycle. I mainly build nice furniture using woods and do some 14 gage projects.

    So, I have tomorrow and the next day scheduled for some honey-do's that I can't get out of... Puke. My first opportunity for a test run will be Friday. It's gonna kill me to wait, but sometimes a boy just gotta do what she says.....

    Hey all,,, great input and I appreciate the efforts.

    Mike

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  14. #14
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    Re: Lincoln ProMig 180 Outlet Run

    I run a lincoln PM215 off ten gauge and a 30 amp breaker.
    "The things that will destroy America are prosperity at any price, peace at any price, safety first instead of duty first, the love of soft living and the get rich quick theory of life." -Theodore Roosevelt

  15. #15
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    Re: Lincoln ProMig 180 Outlet Run

    Quote Originally Posted by Sandy View Post
    I run a lincoln PM215 off ten gauge and a 30 amp breaker.
    Yeah...…..HH190 will run all day on about a 80' 10AWG drop, with 30amp breaker. It's the same line I run the compressor on (5hp).

  16. #16
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    Re: Lincoln ProMig 180 Outlet Run

    Quote Originally Posted by Flat_Bastard View Post
    According to the "good book."

    It depends on the the type/temperature rating of the insulation, and how many conductors you have bundled together.

    If you are only running one 220V circuit in a nonmetallic sheathed cable (romex type cable), or individual conductors of only one 220V circuit in a conduit then:

    If your #10AWG insulation is rated to 60*C then it is good to 30 amps.
    If your #10AWG insulation is rated to 75*C then it is good to 35 amps.
    If you #10AWG insulation is rated to 90*C then it is good to 40 amps.

    #8AWG only needs to be rated at 60*C under those same conditions, to be good to 40 amps.
    Don't mean nothing for a welder with a duty cycle. Has it's own sets of rules and it will allow over-protection of the conductors.

    You can only use the 60° rating for any wire. The terminations are rated for only 60° so the whole system can only use 60° rating. You can never normally exceed 30 amp on a 10 gauge don't matter if it is TW or THHN except for welders because of the duty cycle the wiring can be less than the protection.

    When operating a welder it is possible the over current protection could be double what is in normal tables. IE the 10 could be protected at up to 60 amp. And the outlet rating of course doesn't have to match the breaker either.


    http://www.codebookcity.com/codearti...article630.htm
    Last edited by danielplace; 06-19-2019 at 09:09 AM.

  17. #17
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    Re: Lincoln ProMig 180 Outlet Run

    Hey All,

    From all of your discussions and suggestions I have picked up lots of good info. It's always good to be the 'quietest' one in a group discussion because you will get a bunch of input to digest. I certainly did with my issue here.

    This morning I said to hell with today's honey-do's, I'll suffer later, and ran a 'clean' circuit to where I wanted the welder's outlet to be. I used a 30amp breaker that I already had and did a 'up to code' thirty foot run from my 200 amp panel. Fired up the welder and WOW I was fry-n bacon.... Issue solved, but root cause is still kinda a mystery.

    The old run had my welder's outlet tapped into the last outlet of two from the breaker panel. I really think that cramming in three 10 AWG wired into that outlet's wire terminals was too much. Maybe one or more of the legs became loose, but I can't be sure.

    I was in a hurry to play with my new Lincoln and just did a quick and dirty job. My bad....! So, now my drama ends well.

    Oh, I did call Lincoln about the 40 amp breaker,,,, got a tap dance, but learned that a 30 amp breaker might be OK. I will say that Lincoln's Customer Service is good.

    Thank you all for the input....!!!

    Mike

  18. #18
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    Re: Lincoln ProMig 180 Outlet Run

    " but learned that a 30 amp breaker might be OK."

    That is the best they can answer the question. They have already consulted the electrical engineers and put the specs in the manual. They really can't deviate from those specs but as you've seen, plenty of people are using 30amp Circuits for this class of machine.

    As mentioned by danielplace, the small wire and bigger CB is allowed BUT specific conditions need to be met for it to meet code.

    In most cases the cost of the wire is negligible for a homeowner so saving money by using smaller wire isn't worth it and the circuit is now limited to that one particular machine with that duty cycle.
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  19. #19
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    Re: Lincoln ProMig 180 Outlet Run

    Quote Originally Posted by Broccoli1 View Post
    " but learned that a 30 amp breaker might be OK."

    That is the best they can answer the question. They have already consulted the electrical engineers and put the specs in the manual. They really can't deviate from those specs but as you've seen, plenty of people are using 30amp Circuits for this class of machine.
    Broccoli1,

    Thanks for the info and I understand. I was pleased with the way the person handled my question when I called.
    Every Day I Attempt To Be The Person My Dog Thinks I am.

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    Re: Lincoln ProMig 180 Outlet Run

    Quote Originally Posted by danielplace View Post
    Don't mean nothing for a welder with a duty cycle. Has it's own sets of rules and it will allow over-protection of the conductors.

    You can only use the 60° rating for any wire. The terminations are rated for only 60° so the whole system can only use 60° rating. You can never normally exceed 30 amp on a 10 gauge don't matter if it is TW or THHN except for welders because of the duty cycle the wiring can be less than the protection.

    When operating a welder it is possible the over current protection could be double what is in normal tables. IE the 10 could be protected at up to 60 amp. And the outlet rating of course doesn't have to match the breaker either.


    http://www.codebookcity.com/codearti...article630.htm
    Though I am familiar with Article 630, I do not wholly understand the calculations/rational that allow it to deviate from table 310.15 (B)(16).

    The reason I went the route I did was because, no matter how long BajaMike occupies the space where this "welder" circuit will be installed, he will not be the last person to plug a piece of equipment (whatever that equipment may be) into it. Considering that, I feel that the conductors should match the breaker rating. Chances are the next guy will just see a 220V receptacle and think they are good to plug in their piece of equipment, without ever considering the conductor size. I was taught to always think of the next guy and don't ever assume he knows what you do.

    You make a good point about having to rate the wire to the lowest temp. rating of the equipment in the system. The way I wrote my response was a bit clunky to say the least, I was definitely missing some information. Sounds like I need to remember what I was taught and, not assume the next guy/OP knows what I do.
    Just say, Know.

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