Overhead roots running really hot
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  1. #1

    Overhead roots running really hot

    Hello,
    Long time reader, first time poster!

    I am at the end of the rope in how to figure this dilemma out and need some help.

    Miller maxstar 200
    3/8 carbon steel plate
    About 35 degree bevel
    3/32 land and actual 3/32 gap
    Lincoln 5p+ 1/8" 6010 electrodes
    Amperage range from 72A, DIG:50 - 95A, DIG:100.

    in all other positions I'm running my roots at 75-78A and dig usually around 80. Keyholes well, I can see, sounds good, good penetration etc etc. All is well.

    When I get to overhead those settings do not work at all... Those settings seem to run really cold, I have a hell of a time getting a keyhole to develop and if I am lucky enough to the rod sticks almost immediately. It sounds really cold and the entire time I'm really uneasy about if the walls are breaking down lack fusion etc etc. It runs really cold. Usually I can get decent penetration this way but at the expense of other defects etc etc.

    My first suspicion was angle etc. Tested angle exaggerated front then back... No real help in any manner. Angle is good

    I was thinking travel speed. Maybe going to slow and metal builds up and makes it run cold?? Well I'll speed up to the point that the bead is super skinny and the faster I go the colder it seems to run. Long story short travel speed seems to be good.

    Next is heat. I'll just turn up.
    About 80-85A dig 80.
    Well by the time I get hot enough to feel comfortable that I'm actually breaking the walls down, hot enough to have a keyhole and actually see, maybe whip once in a while...(I usually drag and whip only when necessary to cool down). The puddle is so hot that I get zero penetration.

    My first suspicion was push more... I've experimented with this to various degrees. Well I can push to the point that the rod extinguishes or I get a crap ton of spatter on the back from long arcing... so not pushing enough is not the issue. I suspect once I'm this hot by the time the metal solidifies it has drooped. It's crazy pushing up so high on the rod that the arc goes out just to look at your bead and it's got suck back. I've seen it though over and over again haha.

    The only way I can get a good bead that I'm sure about on overhead is to turn up to about
    95A dig100.
    Again I can't get a keyhole still but what I do is drag the rod really slow so that I'm sure it is breaking down walls etc etc. It looks like a downhill root... The molten metal is tight against the rod, I could probably wear a shade 8 and be fine etc etc... The rod is just held tight and I go really slow.

    This works well. Good penetration and the bead comes out about a 1/4 wide on back (little wide but at least I know walls break down this way), decent build up on front and I'm happy.

    The only reason I don't like this is I should be able to set my machine and run with it all the way around, just changing technique for small adjustments etc etc.

    What do you guys run OH root at compared to other positions?
    Are the differences this drastic??
    What am I doing wrong?

    I'm out of ideas and have messed with this for for a long time and I'm almost out of material haha.
    Last edited by DeafBoyzAudio; 08-10-2019 at 11:37 AM.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Posts
    2,320

    Re: Overhead roots running really hot

    I am not completly familiar with the maxstar . I know its been around for a while. The ones I am familiar with will not run 6010 good enough to use it. Many inverters will not run 6010 worth a hoot. The ones that do usually have a dedicate plug for the cable or a switch that changes the arc so 6010 can be used.

  3. #3

    Re: Overhead roots running really hot

    I do not suspect that to be the issue with this machine. The first machine I got before this one was the Lincoln mp220, the new multi process machine. It would not run 6010. After doing some research found out that certain inverter machines don't have the voltage to keep it lit. I ended up selling it and getting a higher end pipe specific machine.

    It's the cheaper ones basically. The maxstar line is what my local school uses to teach people pipe. They are fully capable machines.

    I have settings for low ocv or high ocv. Low is what the manual recommends for most rods. I haven't been able to find much technical details on what the difference is besides what I saw in the Lincoln welding Bible but I believe it had something to do with your voltage curve and thus being able to regulate heat with arc length.

    Issue still persists with high ovc setting
    Last edited by DeafBoyzAudio; 08-10-2019 at 03:25 PM.

  4. #4

    Help

    Any input anyone?

    Thanks in advance! 😁

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Location
    n.w. of chicago
    Posts
    850

    Re: Help

    Sounds about right what your doing I've mostly use 6010 non+p, on pipe or tube, angle, speed and sometimes a little whip,

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    Cave Creek AZ
    Posts
    2,819

    Re: Overhead roots running really hot

    Just out of curiosity, what are you doing this for? I haven’t seen a non pipe open root 6010 WP anywhere recently.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Groves, Texas
    Posts
    2,636

    Re: Overhead roots running really hot

    Turn the dig up all the way, then adjust amperage accordingly. You need to be able to bury the rod in the root and not have it go out. Pipe welders like to show off by lifting their hood while still running downhill root.
    Your machine might not be up to the task.
    Last edited by TimmyTIG; 08-11-2019 at 08:24 PM.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Groves, Texas
    Posts
    2,636

    Re: Overhead roots running really hot

    Quote Originally Posted by walker View Post
    Just out of curiosity, what are you doing this for? I haven’t seen a non pipe open root 6010 WP anywhere recently.
    That's true, nobody does this anymore on structural. It's all Dualshield with ceramic backing tape for the root.

  9. #9

    Re: Overhead roots running really hot

    I'm just practicing on plate as I have more of it cut than pipe. I'm welding In a home made booth in prep for a pipe job.

    Yeah I might just have to turn my dig all the way up. It works when I do that. I was just concerned it might be something wrong with my technique as every other position I can run 15 amps colder plus 20 less dig.

    Plus I'm trying to be able to weld with minimal changes to my machine... That can be a long trip on some jobsites haha

    I guess for now I'll just have to run overhead on different settings.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Location
    Groves, Texas
    Posts
    2,636

    Re: Overhead roots running really hot

    If you want to run 6010 open roots on an inverter, you have to turn the dig up all the way. If you don't, it sticks. Just the way it is.

  11. #11

    Re: Overhead roots running really hot

    Ok that makes sense now haha. When I was in school my pipe instructor was old school and used to tell us don't use your dig... You may end up on a machine that doesn't have it... Use arc length and technique etc etc.

    Which I totally get...

    So since then I've always been wary to rely on it, but I do like what it does to be able to customize what you can do with arc length with 7018 and 6010, besides if you get in trouble on a root you can't increase the arc length and still maintain form.

    I think the only transformer machine I've ever ran was for ac Tig aluminum repairing engine heads at Yamato.,... I think it was a syncrowave... It was huge!! Literally the size of a fiat haha. But that thing was awesome... Amazing.

    So do transformer machines have dig settings? You said with inverter machines turn it all the way up is this not an issue with transformers?

    Thanks!
    Last edited by DeafBoyzAudio; 08-11-2019 at 11:10 PM.

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